[quote]mapwhap wrote:
I don’t think anyone was saying not to lift…after all, we are on a weight training website. I would say the weight training and the martial arts training would go hand in hand…
As for being…how did you put it…“POWER LIFTER STRONG”…absolutely be as strong as you can be. But a little technique goes a long way in a fight. I don’t know if you are aware of this or not, but bad guys lift weights too. And there is always someone out there who is bigger / stronger / faster than you.
Every advantage helps in a fight…not just being POWER LIFTER STRONG.[/quote]
I cannot speak to the LEO specific comments, but I strongly agree with the above. Well said mapwhap.
I think wrestling is the overall greatest martial art. If you can get a guy down and control him, you can win a fight. That said, boxing, muay thai, and judo are all extremely useful in a fight. You just can’t use 'em if you can’t get up.
[quote]JWolfe wrote:
I think wrestling is the overall greatest martial art. If you can get a guy down and control him, you can win a fight. That said, boxing, muay thai, and judo are all extremely useful in a fight. You just can’t use 'em if you can’t get up.[/quote]
In a sport fight this is true and from a LEO perspective being able to control someone to cuff them is a very useful skill. But holding someone down in a serious fight, especially one with a possibility of multiples or weapons does not spell victory.
[quote]JWolfe wrote:
I think wrestling is the overall greatest martial art. If you can get a guy down and control him, you can win a fight. That said, boxing, muay thai, and judo are all extremely useful in a fight. You just can’t use 'em if you can’t get up.[/quote]
In a sport fight this is true and from a LEO perspective being able to control someone to cuff them is a very useful skill. But holding someone down in a serious fight, especially one with a possibility of multiples or weapons does not spell victory.
Also, Judo is absolutely useful on the ground.[/quote]
Sento: I was just going to reply to his comment , but, you stated exactly what I wanted to say:))
[quote]JWolfe wrote:
I think wrestling is the overall greatest martial art. If you can get a guy down and control him, you can win a fight. That said, boxing, muay thai, and judo are all extremely useful in a fight. You just can’t use 'em if you can’t get up.[/quote]
Judo ground work is undervalued merely because it can’t compete against BJJ, which is a more “complete”.
But you’d be silly to claim that judo is an entirely stand-up art.
I still currently work as an LEO and have spent almost half my life in the martial arts before I had to stop due to medical reasons.
In my opinion, Judo has been very useful to me in my LE career. Though strikes have their place (a good knee or low kick to the right spot can easily drop an unconditioned person, for example) most of the time when you go hands on with someone you’re arresting it’s going to end up being a grappling match on your feet initially. Judo teaches you proper footwork and maintaining your balance, which is important and gives you a huge advantage over the average person on the street who knows zilch about fighting. The sweeps and throws are very useful for taking a suspect to the ground while keeping you in a dominant position, and if it does go to the ground you have enough training to restrain the suspect while waiting for backup or to end the fight then and there if need be. A good throw can end the fight quickly as well - I’ve had aggressive suspects give up after getting thrown onto the ground without much of a fight afterwards.
In regards to single and double legs, they are in the Judo curriculum but if you get a school that focuses solely on Judo competitions they may not cover them much as now they’re illegal in Judo competitions (which is idiotic but that’s for another discussion). You’ll get some people arguing that people aren’t wearing a Judo gi so the throws aren’t as effective, but here in PA it’s cold 9 months out of the year so there’s always some kind of grip to get on someone during a fight if you’re willing to improvise.
A few of my favorite Judo techniques I’ve found work well on patrol:
[quote]BushcraftAl wrote:
You’ll get some people arguing that people aren’t wearing a Judo gi so the throws aren’t as effective,
[/quote]
Those people are unimaginative. The foundation of judo throws is, as you stated, within your understanding of balance, footwork, and leverage. A wrist is just as easy to grab as the sleeves of a gi, and there are many ways to gain and apply leverage than just a grip on a lapel. Your basic, run of the mill hip throw is an indication of this.
No need for fancy stuff. Just grab, get them off balance and abuse the shit out of the situation.
The best judoka I sparred against, 3rd degree black belt from Japan, did basically this. Other black belts I’ve sparred against from the U.S. utilized violence to get their way; not this guy. As soon as he got a grip, he found an imbalance and took advantage of it. Bam. On the floor. No force whatsoever.
That’s why I like judo. The simplicity but utter effectiveness of it appeals a lot to me. I aspire to be as good as him one day, but I doubt it’ll ever happen unless I actually get my ass outside of the U.S. and train elsewhere.
At face value it would seem like Sambo would be your best bet but it’s extremely rare in America.
If you can afford Judo and wrestling I think both would work well. There should be some degree of spillover.
Aside from leg takedowns, the debate boils down to GI vs No-Gi throws. True the person you are taking down probably won’t be wearing a GI, but he will probably have clothes on and many of the grips can be used on clothing, but not all.
[quote]DobermanUSMC wrote:
At face value it would seem like Sambo would be your best bet but it’s extremely rare in America.
If you can afford Judo and wrestling I think both would work well. There should be some degree of spillover.
Aside from leg takedowns, the debate boils down to GI vs No-Gi throws. True the person you are taking down probably won’t be wearing a GI, but he will probably have clothes on and many of the grips can be used on clothing, but not all. [/quote]
It also depends on where you live (what climate) and the time of year. If you were a beat cop on South Beach in the summer time there is a very good chance that you will encounter people without shirts or with tight tank tops on so you would have to rely more on No-Gi types of controls; whereas if you were a cop in Fargo North Dakota there is a very good chance that most of the people you’d encounter would have at least shirts if not jackets on and Gi stuff would work well.
All it takes is a little training without a jacket and you can pull off most Judo throws just fine.
For example, take two basic throws - osoto gari and sasae tsurikomi ashi. First GIF shows the traditional Judo method, second GIF shows the same throw being used in an MMA match.
[quote]BushcraftAl wrote:
All it takes is a little training without a jacket and you can pull off most Judo throws just fine.
For example, take two basic throws - osoto gari and sasae tsurikomi ashi. First GIF shows the traditional Judo method, second GIF shows the same throw being used in an MMA match.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Absolutely. That is a very slick Osoto in that MMA gif, but there are simpler and higher percentage adaptations that can be done without a Gi as well.[/quote]
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Absolutely. That is a very slick Osoto in that MMA gif, but there are simpler and higher percentage adaptations that can be done without a Gi as well.[/quote]
Do you know of any off the top of your head?
[/quote]
Those two applications are ok, but IME it is very difficult to just step in and take the rear leg like he is in that video unless you are much bigger or the person you are doing it on has no grappling experience and very little athleticism. That’s a good way to get reversed.
Personally I like to get my opponent to step the foot I want to reap forward before going for the Osoto. From there I generally hook the leg with my heel, “Knee Osoto” style and drag myself into reaping position, or “tap” the knee with the hand that isn’t on the neck/underhooking to collapse the leg, create the Kuzushi, and pin the leg in place so I can step into position to reap it.
I like them pulling backwards too, but most people don’t naturally walk around like trained Judoka (at least traditional Judoka, the competition stuff is more like wrestling or other forms of grappling and more like what I am used to), they generally tend to want to resist being moved. So when you pull them into stepping forwards they will generally pull back, setting up the Osoto. Likewise if I want someone to push into me (setting up a Sasae, or other forward throw), the easiest way is to push into them first.
Sure, if you get someone who pushes when you pull or pulls when you push, then that would be a different story, but most people don’t do that naturally.
I’ve noticed many untrained folks tend to just start backpedaling when I’m aggressively moving forward and have a grip on them (I work in law enforcement) so it’s a pretty easy setup. If they get aggressive and start pushing back, that’s when I switch to sasae typically.
i’m kinda late to the party, but there’s some good advice here…
my background: 20 years military, 12 years in LE, trained in MT, boxing, wrestling, BJJ and Army Combatives.
-i rarely strike people at work. i’m pretty good at MT (way better than i am at grappling), but i’ve never kicked anyone at work. knees to the thigh are pretty common, though. open hand striking is good to learn, as well, since punches and elbows usually cut open the bad guy and gets him/her a ride to the hospital while you sit on him…
-i have no formal training in judo, but i’ve thrown people with several typical "judo’ throws, and landing on mats sucks. landing on concrete puts 'em out. i have never had to fight someone after i threw them…
-BJJ (either formal Gracie Combatives or sport BJJ) is worth learning. just because you don’t want to be in certain positions, doesn’t mean someone else won’t put you there. i work in the midwest, and we have a lot of good wrestlers here. i am not gonna beat the takedown every time…
-i think judo is worth training just once a week, if that’s all the time you got. make sure you do some strength and aerobic stuff on the other days. if you’re not comfortable with that, then i’d say check out the MMA place, and not just the wrestling class. fighting on street is pretty much MMA, so it’ll come in handy more than not training will…
-take care of your body. my joints are beat up, and i’ve since gotten fat… focus on fitness as a lifestyle, because your life depends on it.
