If I was a new parent today, I would home school my kids. [/quote]
[/quote]
What about the lack of social interactions that come with homeschooling?[/quote]
I have two in-laws that were home schooled. You would never know from talking to them. One has a university degree and the other has an advanced college diploma. You can put kids into sports, Scouts, and other programs that have nothing to do with the school.
Edited[/quote]
We had a couple of kids in town that were home schooled, both did go to HS though. They were with my kids in cub and boy scouts, one became an eagle scout. Normal bright kids that went onto college.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.
[/quote]
About what?
Here is the last negotiation with my boy:
“Call your buddy from down the street, I’ll give you each $80 to clean the leafs out of the yard.”
“Do I have to?”
“No, you can do it by yourself, for free. Your choice.”
[/quote]
Batman summed it up pretty well.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
My kid makes her own decisions within a fairly narrow set of parameters, established by me. If she suggests a reasonable counter-proposal that produces a satisfactory outcome without the need for a power struggle, I’m good with that.
[/quote]
What if your rule is clearly flawed and everyone except you knows it?[/quote]
That’s why my wife and I, and to a much smaller degree, our immediate family, parent as a team. We provide a united front, with consistent areas for the kids to “win” and plenty of places left open for “indulgences”.
You’ve got to understand, our house isn’t a concentration camp or prison. We have basic, simple and fewer rules that must be followed. Call them principles rather than specific rules really. Such as, you make a mess, you clean the mess, period. You don’t eat your dinner (particularly if you asked for specific foods for said meal), you’re going to be hungry later and sure are going to eat your breakfast. You earn our trust, you have it until you lose it. (This can be as simple as being able to get up and down from a chair alone, to staying home for the weekend unsupervised. Age and maturity dependent.) You do special tasks/chores, you get paid. (No, doing well in school isn’t one of them, that is an expectation.)
When a toddler does this… I’ll let you know.
The teen… Well he doesn’t really have too, because the rules he has to follow aren’t unreasonable (clean up after yourself, try in school, don’t be an asshole in public, etc), and he’s earned the right to more and more self determination. Kid hasn’t had a bed time in like 6 or 7 years, and even then, it was just “time to go to your room and be quiet.” If he was up for another hour or so… Who gives a shit if he isn’t a zombie in the morning, still does fine in school and is quiet in his room… We don’t monitor his music, television, internet, movies, games, etc, and havent’ for years. We discuss reality v internet/video games a lot but that is the extent of it.
Sure… I haven’t the slightest if that is the case or not. Hope so though. Means we’ve done well.
That would be pretty cool. Sort of pat myself on the back if it was the case.
Eh, I’m not trying to write a book here about raising kids. And yes, some people suck at parenting…
I’m not going to change my perspective, approach or advice based on the lowest common denominator. If someone can’t step it up and be a half way decent parent (it typically only takes giving a shit about your kid, not that hard) that is on them.
I’ve got a scar to show you in regards to that.
[quote]or whipping him with a belt, simply because he did something that displeased you.
And, in the case of your absolute, what if the parent is an absolute asshole?[/quote]
Then that kid has a tough road ahead, and a lot of catching up to do.
Again, I’m not going to lead my life, or dictate my terms based on the lowest common denominator of outside, uninvolved third parties. I have my own family to worry about, I don’t need theirs too.
[quote]
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You can say shit like “if you don’t eat your diner you’re not getting any cake.” That teaches them to make a life choice. You don’t say “well dear, if you eat your dinner I’ll give you cake.” That is creating a fucking monster.[/quote]
What is the difference between the two? [/quote]
One presents them with a life choice, after they have already initiated the improper behavior (“I can continue to be an obstinate ass and refuse to eat, even though I’m hungry and just “saving room for cake”, or I can eat my dinner, and get cake”) that teaches them not only consequences for their actions, but problem solving and impulse control.
The second bribes them into particular type of behavior. Which in the end teaches them to a) expect rewards for doing what they should anyway b) if they act out, they get a reward to correct the behavior. Which in turn leads to more and more escalation of behavior (bad) in the hopes of greater reward.
One puts them in a position of “shit I screwed up, how do I fix this”. The other teaches them to think “well, if I get cake for just eating, I wonder what they’ll give me to stop throwing this epic tantrum in the middle of toy isle.”
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.
[/quote]
About what?
Here is the last negotiation with my boy:
“Call your buddy from down the street, I’ll give you each $80 to clean the leafs out of the yard.”
“Do I have to?”
“No, you can do it by yourself, for free. Your choice.”
[/quote]
Batman summed it up pretty well.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
My kid makes her own decisions within a fairly narrow set of parameters, established by me. If she suggests a reasonable counter-proposal that produces a satisfactory outcome without the need for a power struggle, I’m good with that.
[/quote]
[/quote]
I need a specific example lol.
My daughter has manipulated the shit out of me, but I can’t think of any actual negotiations.
[quote]TooHuman wrote:
You have no evidence that physical punishment is a very effective tool. [/quote]
Sure you do. Every person that was physically punished (spanked) and turned out a well adjusted adult is evidence that it was effective.
[quote]
You had no way of knowing whether your children would be negatively effected in the way that a mountain of evidence suggest children overall are effected. [/quote]
What mountain of evidence. The end of your video had a website, which had a bunch of links half of which didn’t even work. Where is the research?
[quote]
Further, you have no evidence that your children would not have turned out BETTER if you had invested the time and effort in learning and executing alternative means of parenting. [/quote]
And you would also have no evidence that children would not have turned out WORSE if you had invested the time and effort in learning and executing alternative means of parenting.
[quote]
Saying that your children turned out well due to physical punishment is like saying that the 2/3 of smokers that don’t die from smoking turned out well because they smoked. [/quote]
No it isn’t.
[quote]
There’s a mountain of evidence about the harm any amount of physical punishment does to children.[/quote]
Where. There are generations of people that were raised with some form of physical discipline and a heck of a lot of them are just fine.
Plenty of smokers also turned out just fine. That is an illogical argument since there is irrefutable proof that smoking is bad for your health.[/quote]
They are two entirely different things. [/quote]
How are they different logically?
Tell me how the logic doesn’t follow.[/quote]
There are vast quantities of research and damn near a damn near medical consensus that smoking leads to lung cancer. You have nothing even remotely close to the same thing in regards to physical discipline.
You are trying compare apples to oranges.[/quote]
There is a 93% consensus on physical discipline. This study fleshes that out.
There’s no reversing the damage to the parental bond because the child will always internalize the need to protect themselves from you instead of using reason to negotiate with you.[/quote]
Right.
There is no negotiation. I’m your fucking father, not an administrator. Authority, end of story.
People who can’t learn to handle authority at a young age end up failures in life. Not liking it is one thing, not respecting it… Dead beats. [/quote]
I wouldn’t take it quite that far, but I agree with a good portion of this sentiment.
Excessive negotiating with children is harmful in it’s own right. Treatng a child as an equal damages their sense of place in the world. If you, as a parent, are unable to exert firm, direct dominance in your interactions with your child you ar failing them. It is also completely impractical to spend 15 minutes negotiating with a five year old as to why she needs to leave for school. At a certain point it’s “Car. Go. NOW.” with conviction and intent. If she knows from previous experience you can and will physically place her in the car and it will be more unenjoyable than if she walks there herself, it has been my experience that she will generally choose to go under her own power. There will be no bribes in my home for simply doing what is required.
Human relationships are inherently hierchical in nature. A huge part of our identities are derived from where we fit into these hierarchies and our long term success in life will be lsrgely determined by our ability to function in our roles. Children are necessarily below their parents on the ladder of dominance. This is essential for their survival and also for their emotional security. They are unable to be self determining because they are unable to be self reliant, period. So kids must, at least most of the time, submit themselves to the will of their parents. Adults, in turn must often submit themselves to forces and authorities greater than themselves, although they enjoy a higher degree of self-determination in proportion to their higher degree of self reliance.
That said I find it useful to leave certain points up for negotiation so our daughter retains some sense of self-determination and control over her existance. I prefer to pick my battles a little. Life is too short and my kid is too stubborn. I can’t imagine where she gets that from… [/quote]
Hot damn that is a good post.
Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.
As an aside, I consider the few times I’ve placed my hands on my son to be good investments, considering the threat of hands at this point is enough to make him do something. I don’t make empty threats, and he has learned this the hard way.[/quote]
There’s no such thing as a higher authority in society. There are only rulers that use the state monopoly on violence. There is nothing natural or ethical about that and by emulating this with your children you are doing the same thing public schools are: training your child to accept people in government as their rulers.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.
[/quote]
About what?
Here is the last negotiation with my boy:
“Call your buddy from down the street, I’ll give you each $80 to clean the leafs out of the yard.”
“Do I have to?”
“No, you can do it by yourself, for free. Your choice.”
[/quote]
Your child isn’t a slave. The correct answer is no you don’t have to.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
That said I find it useful to leave certain points up for negotiation so our daughter retains some sense of self-determination and control over her existance. I prefer to pick my battles a little. Life is too short and my kid is too stubborn. I can’t imagine where she gets that from… [/quote]
Isn’t the level of negotiation and talking supposed to increase as the child grows up?
[/quote]
I agree with this. It increases in proportion to the child’s logic and reasoning skills. Beans illustrates this really well with the contrast between his 3 yr old and his 17 yr old. Like so many things, the way this transition takes place will depend largely on the character/temperament of the kid in questions. They really are there own little people and one size doesn’t fit all.
I agree that, in my experience, negotiating with a 3 year old is a fool’s errand. You can ask nicely, you can explain the reason you are asking, you can explain what will happen if they don’t comply, but in the end it comes down to “Me dad. You kid. You do what mom and dad say.”
[/quote]
A child’s development of reasoning skills DO NOT depend largely on the character and temperament. The largest factor is whether they are negotiated with instead of punished. This is backed up with a ton of research which I’ve already linked.
In fact their character and temperament are also most effected by parenting. Again, this is NOT my opinion, this is supported by evidence.
Finally, the fact that YOU or others cannot successfully negotiate with your child is not proof of anything other than your own ignorance. How much time did you actually spend researching and developing strategies to negotiate with your child at various stages of their brain development BEFORE they were born?
Just like anything in life, if you don’t prepare you should expect to fail and i don’t know of anything that’s more important to be successful in than the monumental task of parenting.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.
[/quote]
About what?
Here is the last negotiation with my boy:
“Call your buddy from down the street, I’ll give you each $80 to clean the leafs out of the yard.”
“Do I have to?”
“No, you can do it by yourself, for free. Your choice.”
[/quote]
Your child isn’t a slave. The correct answer is no you don’t have to.[/quote]
My apologies, Push. But I just couldn’t let this one slip by.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.
[/quote]
About what?
Here is the last negotiation with my boy:
“Call your buddy from down the street, I’ll give you each $80 to clean the leafs out of the yard.”
“Do I have to?”
“No, you can do it by yourself, for free. Your choice.”
[/quote]
Your child isn’t a slave. The correct answer is no you don’t have to.[/quote]
Um… No, he isn’t a slave. Not only was he offered to be paid for his labor, even if I didn’t offer, let me count the ways I pay him:
A house
Food
Transportation
Security
Internet
TV
Cloths
Heat
Hot Water
Books
Video Games
Computers
IPads
Cell Phone
You wouldn’t know the “correct answer” if it jumped up and bit you in the ass.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.
[/quote]
About what?
Here is the last negotiation with my boy:
“Call your buddy from down the street, I’ll give you each $80 to clean the leafs out of the yard.”
“Do I have to?”
“No, you can do it by yourself, for free. Your choice.”
[/quote]
Your child isn’t a slave. The correct answer is no you don’t have to.[/quote]
The correct answer is yes, you live here and need to contribute. I am generously offering to pay you.
There’s no reversing the damage to the parental bond because the child will always internalize the need to protect themselves from you instead of using reason to negotiate with you.[/quote]
Right.
There is no negotiation. I’m your fucking father, not an administrator. Authority, end of story.
People who can’t learn to handle authority at a young age end up failures in life. Not liking it is one thing, not respecting it… Dead beats. [/quote]
I wouldn’t take it quite that far, but I agree with a good portion of this sentiment.
Excessive negotiating with children is harmful in it’s own right. Treatng a child as an equal damages their sense of place in the world. If you, as a parent, are unable to exert firm, direct dominance in your interactions with your child you ar failing them. It is also completely impractical to spend 15 minutes negotiating with a five year old as to why she needs to leave for school. At a certain point it’s “Car. Go. NOW.” with conviction and intent. If she knows from previous experience you can and will physically place her in the car and it will be more unenjoyable than if she walks there herself, it has been my experience that she will generally choose to go under her own power. There will be no bribes in my home for simply doing what is required.
Human relationships are inherently hierchical in nature. A huge part of our identities are derived from where we fit into these hierarchies and our long term success in life will be lsrgely determined by our ability to function in our roles. Children are necessarily below their parents on the ladder of dominance. This is essential for their survival and also for their emotional security. They are unable to be self determining because they are unable to be self reliant, period. So kids must, at least most of the time, submit themselves to the will of their parents. Adults, in turn must often submit themselves to forces and authorities greater than themselves, although they enjoy a higher degree of self-determination in proportion to their higher degree of self reliance.
That said I find it useful to leave certain points up for negotiation so our daughter retains some sense of self-determination and control over her existance. I prefer to pick my battles a little. Life is too short and my kid is too stubborn. I can’t imagine where she gets that from… [/quote]
Hot damn that is a good post.
Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.
As an aside, I consider the few times I’ve placed my hands on my son to be good investments, considering the threat of hands at this point is enough to make him do something. I don’t make empty threats, and he has learned this the hard way.[/quote]
There’s no such thing as a higher authority in society. There are only rulers that use the state monopoly on violence. There is nothing natural or ethical about that and by emulating this with your children you are doing the same thing public schools are: training your child to accept people in government as their rulers.[/quote]
Gold fucking Gold.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
That would be pretty cool. Sort of pat myself on the back if it was the case.
[/quote]
Based on what you wrote here given your rules, you should. It certainly sounds like your rules are all commonsense ones based on the premise if “If you did something, you should be the one to fix it”.
And here I was thinking you’re a controlling parent. Doesn’t seem to be the case.
There’s no reversing the damage to the parental bond because the child will always internalize the need to protect themselves from you instead of using reason to negotiate with you.[/quote]
Right.
There is no negotiation. I’m your fucking father, not an administrator. Authority, end of story.
People who can’t learn to handle authority at a young age end up failures in life. Not liking it is one thing, not respecting it… Dead beats. [/quote]
I wouldn’t take it quite that far, but I agree with a good portion of this sentiment.
Excessive negotiating with children is harmful in it’s own right. Treatng a child as an equal damages their sense of place in the world. If you, as a parent, are unable to exert firm, direct dominance in your interactions with your child you ar failing them. It is also completely impractical to spend 15 minutes negotiating with a five year old as to why she needs to leave for school. At a certain point it’s “Car. Go. NOW.” with conviction and intent. If she knows from previous experience you can and will physically place her in the car and it will be more unenjoyable than if she walks there herself, it has been my experience that she will generally choose to go under her own power. There will be no bribes in my home for simply doing what is required.
Human relationships are inherently hierchical in nature. A huge part of our identities are derived from where we fit into these hierarchies and our long term success in life will be lsrgely determined by our ability to function in our roles. Children are necessarily below their parents on the ladder of dominance. This is essential for their survival and also for their emotional security. They are unable to be self determining because they are unable to be self reliant, period. So kids must, at least most of the time, submit themselves to the will of their parents. Adults, in turn must often submit themselves to forces and authorities greater than themselves, although they enjoy a higher degree of self-determination in proportion to their higher degree of self reliance.
That said I find it useful to leave certain points up for negotiation so our daughter retains some sense of self-determination and control over her existance. I prefer to pick my battles a little. Life is too short and my kid is too stubborn. I can’t imagine where she gets that from… [/quote]
Hot damn that is a good post.
Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.
As an aside, I consider the few times I’ve placed my hands on my son to be good investments, considering the threat of hands at this point is enough to make him do something. I don’t make empty threats, and he has learned this the hard way.[/quote]
There’s no such thing as a higher authority in society. There are only rulers that use the state monopoly on violence. There is nothing natural or ethical about that and by emulating this with your children you are doing the same thing public schools are: training your child to accept people in government as their rulers.[/quote]
TooHuman, you’re male, right? Please tell me you’re male and not female.
I can’t fight the gender wars with you on my side.
There’s no reversing the damage to the parental bond because the child will always internalize the need to protect themselves from you instead of using reason to negotiate with you.[/quote]
Right.
There is no negotiation. I’m your fucking father, not an administrator. Authority, end of story.
People who can’t learn to handle authority at a young age end up failures in life. Not liking it is one thing, not respecting it… Dead beats. [/quote]
I wouldn’t take it quite that far, but I agree with a good portion of this sentiment.
Excessive negotiating with children is harmful in it’s own right. Treatng a child as an equal damages their sense of place in the world. If you, as a parent, are unable to exert firm, direct dominance in your interactions with your child you ar failing them. It is also completely impractical to spend 15 minutes negotiating with a five year old as to why she needs to leave for school. At a certain point it’s “Car. Go. NOW.” with conviction and intent. If she knows from previous experience you can and will physically place her in the car and it will be more unenjoyable than if she walks there herself, it has been my experience that she will generally choose to go under her own power. There will be no bribes in my home for simply doing what is required.
Human relationships are inherently hierchical in nature. A huge part of our identities are derived from where we fit into these hierarchies and our long term success in life will be lsrgely determined by our ability to function in our roles. Children are necessarily below their parents on the ladder of dominance. This is essential for their survival and also for their emotional security. They are unable to be self determining because they are unable to be self reliant, period. So kids must, at least most of the time, submit themselves to the will of their parents. Adults, in turn must often submit themselves to forces and authorities greater than themselves, although they enjoy a higher degree of self-determination in proportion to their higher degree of self reliance.
That said I find it useful to leave certain points up for negotiation so our daughter retains some sense of self-determination and control over her existance. I prefer to pick my battles a little. Life is too short and my kid is too stubborn. I can’t imagine where she gets that from… [/quote]
Hot damn that is a good post.
Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.
As an aside, I consider the few times I’ve placed my hands on my son to be good investments, considering the threat of hands at this point is enough to make him do something. I don’t make empty threats, and he has learned this the hard way.[/quote]
There’s no such thing as a higher authority in society. There are only rulers that use the state monopoly on violence. There is nothing natural or ethical about that and by emulating this with your children you are doing the same thing public schools are: training your child to accept people in government as their rulers.[/quote]
TooHuman, you’re male, right? Please tell me you’re male and not female.
I can’t fight the gender wars with you on my side.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.
[/quote]
About what?
Here is the last negotiation with my boy:
“Call your buddy from down the street, I’ll give you each $80 to clean the leafs out of the yard.”
“Do I have to?”
“No, you can do it by yourself, for free. Your choice.”
[/quote]
Your child isn’t a slave. The correct answer is no you don’t have to.[/quote]
The correct answer is yes, you live here and need to contribute. I am generously offering to pay you.
edit: Sorry Beans, I see you covered that.
[/quote]
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.
[/quote]
About what?
Here is the last negotiation with my boy:
“Call your buddy from down the street, I’ll give you each $80 to clean the leafs out of the yard.”
“Do I have to?”
“No, you can do it by yourself, for free. Your choice.”
[/quote]
Your child isn’t a slave. The correct answer is no you don’t have to.[/quote]
