The War on Boys

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]undoredo wrote:
I never found “getting picked last” to hurt. I thought it was a sensible way to try to make the teams roughly even in skill. I liked “getting picked last” a lot better than I liked getting clobbered by an opposing team full of the best athletes.
[/quote]

Huh?

I got picked last because I was the slowest and fattest kid in the class. Nobody wanted me. It was a deliberate attempt to get all the athletic kids in your team.
[/quote]
I got picked last because I was clumsy and unskillful.

Maybe I am making a wrong assumption about the system used where you got picked last? The system used where I got picked last, was two captains would alternate choosing players. Each captain would try to get as many good players as he could, and the end result was two teams roughly equal in skill. From an early age, I could see that made sense, and it didn’t bother me. (I think a better system would have been for first pick to get one player, and then for each captain to get two picks each, alternately. That way one captain would get 1st and 4th pick; the other captain would get 2nd and 3rd pick; etc. But alternating one by one still resulted in roughly equally-skilled teams.)

Tne other system that was sometimes used was, “line up and count off one, two, one, two…”, etc. When that was being set up, the athletic kids would arrange themselves in the line to end up on the same team, which resulted in the other team having no chance and getting clobbered.

I liked the former system (which included me being picked last) better than I liked the latter system. Especially when I was on the team getting clobbered (via the latter system).

[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:
My wife works for the AAP and they are very far left (she is not and to here her tell stories).

They are very liberal in all ways and probably prompted the ban on Human Targeting.

[/quote]

You mean to tell me the AAP is a bias organization with an agenda. My world has been flipped upside down…

Lol, TH this is exactly why I repeatedly said I’d like to see the actual research.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

There’s no reversing the damage to the parental bond because the child will always internalize the need to protect themselves from you instead of using reason to negotiate with you.[/quote]

Right.

There is no negotiation. I’m your fucking father, not an administrator. Authority, end of story.

People who can’t learn to handle authority at a young age end up failures in life. Not liking it is one thing, not respecting it… Dead beats. [/quote]

I wouldn’t take it quite that far, but I agree with a good portion of this sentiment.

Excessive negotiating with children is harmful in it’s own right. Treatng a child as an equal damages their sense of place in the world. If you, as a parent, are unable to exert firm, direct dominance in your interactions with your child you ar failing them. It is also completely impractical to spend 15 minutes negotiating with a five year old as to why she needs to leave for school. At a certain point it’s “Car. Go. NOW.” with conviction and intent. If she knows from previous experience you can and will physically place her in the car and it will be more unenjoyable than if she walks there herself, it has been my experience that she will generally choose to go under her own power. There will be no bribes in my home for simply doing what is required.

Human relationships are inherently hierchical in nature. A huge part of our identities are derived from where we fit into these hierarchies and our long term success in life will be lsrgely determined by our ability to function in our roles. Children are necessarily below their parents on the ladder of dominance. This is essential for their survival and also for their emotional security. They are unable to be self determining because they are unable to be self reliant, period. So kids must, at least most of the time, submit themselves to the will of their parents. Adults, in turn must often submit themselves to forces and authorities greater than themselves, although they enjoy a higher degree of self-determination in proportion to their higher degree of self reliance.

That said I find it useful to leave certain points up for negotiation so our daughter retains some sense of self-determination and control over her existance. I prefer to pick my battles a little. Life is too short and my kid is too stubborn. I can’t imagine where she gets that from…

Regarding the topic at hand, long live dodgeball, BB guns, wooden swords, keeping score and getting hurt for no good reason.

I know somebody who is against spanking, and raised his son and daughter well without spanking. But this guy can talk non-stop, and he is so irritating you would gladly take a beating to get him to shut the hell up. We can’t expect all parents to have that gift.

[quote]batman730 wrote:

That said I find it useful to leave certain points up for negotiation so our daughter retains some sense of self-determination and control over her existance. I prefer to pick my battles a little. Life is too short and my kid is too stubborn. I can’t imagine where she gets that from… [/quote]

Great post. Much more elegant than I.

My daughter is 3. It’s still very much, Mommy and Daddy’s way or nothing. My boy is now 17, and… I don’t direct his life at all. We’ve taught him how to make choices, how to take and give direction and as much of the harshness of life we could. (Which isn’t all that much lol, we’re his parents.)

But it is simply because we didn’t play that dumbass negotiation bullshit when he was a kid that he is this way now. We’ve made him earn every ounce of trust he has, and he has a lot. (A lot is really an understatement.)

[quote]undoredo wrote:
I know somebody who is against spanking, and raised his son and daughter well without spanking. But this guy can talk non-stop, and he is so irritating you would gladly take a beating to get him to shut the hell up. We can’t expect all parents to have that gift.[/quote]

Done this.

Last time the boy missed the bus, I gave him the drugs talk, for like the 17th time the whole way over.

As we pulled in I was like “Am I annoying you yet?”

“Yes”

“I bet you’ll never miss the fucking bus again will you? Next time is the sex talk.”

[quote]batman730 wrote:
That said I find it useful to leave certain points up for negotiation so our daughter retains some sense of self-determination and control over her existance. I prefer to pick my battles a little. Life is too short and my kid is too stubborn. I can’t imagine where she gets that from… [/quote]

Isn’t the level of negotiation and talking supposed to increase as the child grows up?

The thing I don’t quite understand about TooHuman’s posts is the concept that you can negotiate with children at all (though it sounds more like pure bribery than negotiating + a very well behaved child). Young children are simply too immature/undeveloped to understand the concept of negotiating. It’s well established that children cannot think beyond their own needs. There’s no negotiating with that.

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
That said I find it useful to leave certain points up for negotiation so our daughter retains some sense of self-determination and control over her existance. I prefer to pick my battles a little. Life is too short and my kid is too stubborn. I can’t imagine where she gets that from… [/quote]

Isn’t the level of negotiation and talking supposed to increase as the child grows up?

The thing I don’t quite understand about TooHuman’s posts is the concept that you can negotiate with children at all (though it sounds more like pure bribery than negotiating + a very well behaved child). Young children are simply too immature/undeveloped to understand the concept of negotiating. It’s well established that children cannot think beyond their own needs. There’s no negotiating with that.[/quote]

Bat correct me if I’m wrong, but the only shit my daughter “chooses” for herself is shit like putting on her own shoes and jacket (assuming she accomplishes this on our timeline and isn’t being a defiant pain in the ass.) Picking her movies and shows to watch when it is movie time, and choosing which toy or activity to play when we are playing. I’ll let her pick the songs when we dance and sing too most times.

You don’t, ever, negotiate with your kids. As time goes by you start letting them make more and more of their own life choices. There is no negotiation. If you set a rule, they follow it, if you don’t set a rule, they make a life choice.

You can say shit like “if you don’t eat your diner you’re not getting any cake.” That teaches them to make a life choice. You don’t say “well dear, if you eat your dinner I’ll give you cake.” That is creating a fucking monster.

People wonder why kids feel so entitled these days… It’s because shit ass parents bribed them with compensation for doing what they should be doing.

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
That said I find it useful to leave certain points up for negotiation so our daughter retains some sense of self-determination and control over her existance. I prefer to pick my battles a little. Life is too short and my kid is too stubborn. I can’t imagine where she gets that from… [/quote]

Isn’t the level of negotiation and talking supposed to increase as the child grows up?

[/quote]

I agree with this. It increases in proportion to the child’s logic and reasoning skills. Beans illustrates this really well with the contrast between his 3 yr old and his 17 yr old. Like so many things, the way this transition takes place will depend largely on the character/temperament of the kid in questions. They really are there own little people and one size doesn’t fit all.

I agree that, in my experience, negotiating with a 3 year old is a fool’s errand. You can ask nicely, you can explain the reason you are asking, you can explain what will happen if they don’t comply, but in the end it comes down to “Me dad. You kid. You do what mom and dad say.”

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You can say shit like “if you don’t eat your diner you’re not getting any cake.” That teaches them to make a life choice. You don’t say “well dear, if you eat your dinner I’ll give you cake.” That is creating a fucking monster.
[/quote]

Put that fucking cake down. Cake is for closers.

[quote]batman730 wrote:

I agree that, in my experience, negotiating with a 3 year old is a fool’s errand. You can ask nicely, you can explain the reason you are asking, you can explain what will happen if they don’t comply, but in the end it comes down to “Me dad. You kid. You do what mom and dad say.”
[/quote]

Yup… After awhile you stop inviting that kind of aggravation in your life, and just make her do the important things, and let her go hog ass wild when it’s play time…

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You can say shit like “if you don’t eat your diner you’re not getting any cake.” That teaches them to make a life choice. You don’t say “well dear, if you eat your dinner I’ll give you cake.” That is creating a fucking monster.
[/quote]

Put that fucking cake down. Cake is for closers.

[/quote]

lol. I’m not a tyrant. My kids have a lot of fun, and I’m very, very lenient about most things. But I don’t negotiate.

I can be (and have been, the girl is a master already at 3) manipulated, but that is another topic for another day, lol.

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
That said I find it useful to leave certain points up for negotiation so our daughter retains some sense of self-determination and control over her existance. I prefer to pick my battles a little. Life is too short and my kid is too stubborn. I can’t imagine where she gets that from… [/quote]

Isn’t the level of negotiation and talking supposed to increase as the child grows up?

[/quote]

I agree with this. It increases in proportion to the child’s logic and reasoning skills. Beans illustrates this really well with the contrast between his 3 yr old and his 17 yr old. Like so many things, the way this transition takes place will depend largely on the character/temperament of the kid in questions. They really are there own little people and one size doesn’t fit all.

I agree that, in my experience, negotiating with a 3 year old is a fool’s errand. You can ask nicely, you can explain the reason you are asking, you can explain what will happen if they don’t comply, but in the end it comes down to “Me dad. You kid. You do what mom and dad say.”
[/quote]

.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

I agree that, in my experience, negotiating with a 3 year old is a fool’s errand. You can ask nicely, you can explain the reason you are asking, you can explain what will happen if they don’t comply, but in the end it comes down to “Me dad. You kid. You do what mom and dad say.”
[/quote]

Yup… After awhile you stop inviting that kind of aggravation in your life, and just make her do the important things, and let her go hog ass wild when it’s play time…

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You can say shit like “if you don’t eat your diner you’re not getting any cake.” That teaches them to make a life choice. You don’t say “well dear, if you eat your dinner I’ll give you cake.” That is creating a fucking monster.
[/quote]

Put that fucking cake down. Cake is for closers.

[/quote]

lol. I’m not a tyrant. My kids have a lot of fun, and I’m very, very lenient about most things. But I don’t negotiate.

I can be (and have been, the girl is a master already at 3) manipulated, but that is another topic for another day, lol. [/quote]

Just teasing. :slight_smile:

[quote]batman730 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

There’s no reversing the damage to the parental bond because the child will always internalize the need to protect themselves from you instead of using reason to negotiate with you.[/quote]

Right.

There is no negotiation. I’m your fucking father, not an administrator. Authority, end of story.

People who can’t learn to handle authority at a young age end up failures in life. Not liking it is one thing, not respecting it… Dead beats. [/quote]

I wouldn’t take it quite that far, but I agree with a good portion of this sentiment.

Excessive negotiating with children is harmful in it’s own right. Treatng a child as an equal damages their sense of place in the world. If you, as a parent, are unable to exert firm, direct dominance in your interactions with your child you ar failing them. It is also completely impractical to spend 15 minutes negotiating with a five year old as to why she needs to leave for school. At a certain point it’s “Car. Go. NOW.” with conviction and intent. If she knows from previous experience you can and will physically place her in the car and it will be more unenjoyable than if she walks there herself, it has been my experience that she will generally choose to go under her own power. There will be no bribes in my home for simply doing what is required.

Human relationships are inherently hierchical in nature. A huge part of our identities are derived from where we fit into these hierarchies and our long term success in life will be lsrgely determined by our ability to function in our roles. Children are necessarily below their parents on the ladder of dominance. This is essential for their survival and also for their emotional security. They are unable to be self determining because they are unable to be self reliant, period. So kids must, at least most of the time, submit themselves to the will of their parents. Adults, in turn must often submit themselves to forces and authorities greater than themselves, although they enjoy a higher degree of self-determination in proportion to their higher degree of self reliance.

That said I find it useful to leave certain points up for negotiation so our daughter retains some sense of self-determination and control over her existance. I prefer to pick my battles a little. Life is too short and my kid is too stubborn. I can’t imagine where she gets that from… [/quote]

Hot damn that is a good post.

Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.

As an aside, I consider the few times I’ve placed my hands on my son to be good investments, considering the threat of hands at this point is enough to make him do something. I don’t make empty threats, and he has learned this the hard way.

Lol, EmilyQ, that’s what I’ve been thinking this whole time

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Beans - I’ll negotiate a bit with my son, but he knows when making “deals” is over. Rarely in life is there an authority for which someone has no negotiation power, IMO. The very fact that I’m interacting with someone else implies I have something to offer them.

[/quote]

About what?

Here is the last negotiation with my boy:

“Call your buddy from down the street, I’ll give you each $80 to clean the leafs out of the yard.”

“Do I have to?”

“No, you can do it by yourself, for free. Your choice.”

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]batman730 wrote:
That said I find it useful to leave certain points up for negotiation so our daughter retains some sense of self-determination and control over her existance. I prefer to pick my battles a little. Life is too short and my kid is too stubborn. I can’t imagine where she gets that from… [/quote]

Isn’t the level of negotiation and talking supposed to increase as the child grows up?

The thing I don’t quite understand about TooHuman’s posts is the concept that you can negotiate with children at all (though it sounds more like pure bribery than negotiating + a very well behaved child). Young children are simply too immature/undeveloped to understand the concept of negotiating. It’s well established that children cannot think beyond their own needs. There’s no negotiating with that.[/quote]

Bat correct me if I’m wrong, but the only shit my daughter “chooses” for herself is shit like putting on her own shoes and jacket (assuming she accomplishes this on our timeline and isn’t being a defiant pain in the ass.) Picking her movies and shows to watch when it is movie time, and choosing which toy or activity to play when we are playing. I’ll let her pick the songs when we dance and sing too most times.

You don’t, ever, negotiate with your kids. As time goes by you start letting them make more and more of their own life choices. There is no negotiation. If you set a rule, they follow it, if you don’t set a rule, they make a life choice.

You can say shit like “if you don’t eat your diner you’re not getting any cake.” That teaches them to make a life choice. You don’t say “well dear, if you eat your dinner I’ll give you cake.” That is creating a fucking monster.

People wonder why kids feel so entitled these days… It’s because shit ass parents bribed them with compensation for doing what they should be doing. [/quote]

Pretty much word for word.

My kid makes her own decisions within a fairly narrow set of parameters, established by me. If she suggests a reasonable counter-proposal that produces a satisfactory outcome without the need for a power struggle, I’m good with that.

Regarding compensation for what you should be doing, we do run a “chore board”. Basically we have half a dozen responsibilities (e.g. pick up toys, show respect, feed pets, tidy laundry etc), all arguably stuff she should be doing. Each day she does a good job of fulfilling those responsibilities she gets a sticker. If she gets all her stickers for the week she gets a small, pre-determined reward. Positive reinforcement and all. I don’t think that’s really what you’re talking about though. Regarding “I’ll give you cake if you eat your dinner,” aw hell no.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You don’t, ever, negotiate with your kids. As time goes by you start letting them make more and more of their own life choices. There is no negotiation. If you set a rule, they follow it, if you don’t set a rule, they make a life choice.[/quote]

What if your rule is clearly flawed and everyone except you knows it? Or perhaps your child brings up a legitimately good reason why he/she doesn’t agree with your rule, but you overrule him/her “just because”?

Have you considered the possibility that your child is just well-adjusted? Or perhaps you’re just a good parent who have consistently set fair rules up to this point and so the child feels no need to rebel against it?

The problem with absolutes like yours is that they don’t take into account the extremes. People used to be against corporeal punishment because it was an easy lead-in to physical abuse, and those people do have a legitimate point. Consistency and moderation is always important. You mean to EDUCATE the child; not just punish them for doing something wrong. The punishment is meant to educate, and that’s how it should always be used.

But some people take that to mean you should be putting your cigarette off on his skin, or whipping him with a belt, simply because he did something that displeased you.

And, in the case of your absolute, what if the parent is an absolute asshole?

You need to take into account that you are probably a decent human being. But there exists other human beings who indecent. And when people disagree with you (as probably TooHuman does with us here), it’s because he is thinking of the indecent people. And we’d be lying if we said we should ignore the indecent people because they’re not statistically relevant.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
You can say shit like “if you don’t eat your diner you’re not getting any cake.” That teaches them to make a life choice. You don’t say “well dear, if you eat your dinner I’ll give you cake.” That is creating a fucking monster.[/quote]

What is the difference between the two?