Test/Tren/DBol with No AI

Pharma / TRT
41

[quote]MaddyD wrote:
Brook wrote:

Dangerous is a little harsh of a description for low estrogen - it will however give as many sides as high Estrogen levels will.

Could you expand on what effect progesterone has (with tren being basically a progestin) when estrogen levels are low, that would make the user so uncomfortable?

Seems like you are spouting bro knowledge - ie. stuff you have heard and dont understand.
Dont get me wrong, i do it on occassion, but i expect to be called out too…

your very correct, I love it when you call me out it helps me to get my stuff straight because I am often mixxed up when it comes to things that I think I understand.
by you “calling me out” and correcting me its always helped me learn and you have a way of doing so in a respectful and classy matter,something that I really appreciate,and respect
thank you.

with that said allow me to explain myself a little.(hopefully)

having too low of estrogen is not really “dangerous” that was very poor wording on my part
too low of estrogen and the fact that tren is 5x more androgenic on average than test and you have the harsh sides everyone talks about.
I am still unsure which attribute causes the sides, if its the effect on E levels or simply the “strength” of the drug but I like to think its a combo of both really.

about the prolactin/progestin things
what I am actually talking about is gyno symptoms and not “uncomfortable sides” these 2 things in conjunction with low estrogen,again horrible wording and thank you for setting me straight.

by themselves the prolactin/progestin really does not cause gyno but in order to combat the sides caused by having estrogen too low we all (should) be adding a compound such as test.
if aromatase is not controlled there may be moderate/high estrogen levels despite Trens effect on lowering it.
progesterone works synergistically with estrogen, to stimulate breast production and prolactin has a stimulatory effect on gyno in the presence of high circulating estrogen levels to cause a person to lactate. adding Testosterone which aromotizes to estrogen can cause increased prolactin I beleive.
however this is usually of no concern when using an AI because estrogen has to be at high enough levels to work synergistically with high levels of prolactin or progesterone, to cause breast development and lactation, this rarely happens but it does still happen because some people are more sensitive than others.
these are really not things to worry over so much but they are still sides that happen so having caber or bromo and a decent AI is my way of knowing I have all sides covered just in case, and using an AI like adex or letro is actually a must on any and all cycles that utilize test IMO.

god,I hope Im not digging a deeper hole for myself and looking a fool here.:slight_smile:
[/quote]

Not at all, very classy too.

I am glad i didnt come across as a cunt - i try not to, but am acutely aware of being very capable… :wink:
My posts are always quite long - this is simply due to the fact that i need to really try to articulate myself in a subject to come across in the most understandable way.

Someone like Bill Roberts (i have enviously noticed) can put across the point of a complex subject in a very understandable way but in just a couple of sentances.
This is the true show of knowledge i believe, as it shows he can share it without needing to go too deep - he knows the level of his reader to a T.
Not only that but he is classy in his retorts, and also helps others when he has a knowledge level way above most.
I however help those who know less - but to the maximum of my ability!

All you wrote is pretty much right - and if you feel that caber is needed for your piece of mind - so be it. I personally would use caber with deca (and after this last experiment/run, i have decided i will not run it[Deca] without [Cabergoline] in the future - or at all) but i would not with Tren. I find Tren a very comfortable and effective drug. Controls weight gain by curbing appetite, but massively improves composition of the body, no sweats, minimal aggression, no acne, no sleeplessness… nothing except positive gains.
I am also a firm believer in Trenbolone having affinity but no activity for the progesterone receptor - this is based purely on personal experience, as it simply does not have the same sides that deca, a progestin, does.

If i was one of those who suffered the more androgenic sides i would continue to call it harsh (as i mistakenly did before i used it), except i dont, so i wont! I do believe that this is dose dependant, although the same cvould be said for test - most cannot feel comfortable on over 2g of test from what i hear.

Best,

Brook

42

NZ Rabbit seems like you got stuff dialed in now and I realize this response is late but I just found the thread and wanted to add 2 cents.

There is huge difference between not having and not using an AI. Last year as some recall I ran a cycle which was 750mg TE week, 350mg TRE week and 50mg dbol ED. I had anastrozole but never cracked it open on the cycle. Everyone gets their sides in varying degrees I get no gyno, some get it from 400mg of test alone. Some guys lose hair, I dont. I do get zits, others dont.

Only experience will teach you where you estrogen sensitivity levels lie. Many/most people use a low dose AI routinely and thats there choice and might even be preferable. In my case Im living proof that cycle can be run without reliance on AI’s. Im currently running a G of TE and 400mg of TRE a week.

I do hit 25mg of proviron ED and we could argue that slightly contributes to estrogen control. But the bottom line is in my system 1400mg of weekly AAS does not produce gyno in me nor cause me concern to mandatorily use an AI. YMMV

43

Cheers Saps,

Appreciate your input. I’m using .25mg/d adex as insurance anyway.

While we’re at it I’ll give a quick update on cycle progress. Heading into the back end of my third week with absolutely no sides whatsoever but interestingly my gains aren’t as rapid as what they were when I ran 50mg/d dbol with 50mg/d winny this time last year.

I recall not being able to fit into any jeans after about the third or fourth week of that cycle and, I would very much like that to happen again!

Consequently, due to the sides being a non-issue and the use of adex would it be outrageous to increase the dosages levels mid-cycle?

Thinking of Test E to 700mg/w (BTW injecting ED as I seem to get really beaten up by pins >25g).
Tren A to 350mg/w ED
Dbol to 350mg/w

Thanks as always appreciate your input

44

I am in the minority who believe unless mandated by sides I dont change a cycle protocol midstream. Apparent lack of immediate progress is not a reason for me to increase doses. Remember too you dont have the full force of all your TE yet after 3 weeks. Also some people can lose weight on tren due to water and fat loss. I advocate holding to the course. I think most who follow me will disagree though

45

Interesting about the water loss coments with tren. I’m up 4-6x a night pissing. Getting a bit ‘pissed’ off with this-)

Weight has remained steady at about 199 since late in week one so water loss might explain something there.

Initially appetite flunked a bit but tbh only lasted a few days and has been back to its ravenous best since.

46

On the repeated night trips to piss: I don’t think this is due to trenbolone cutting water.

But rather to temporary prostate enlargement.

Just as a personal anecdote – I have no idea what the success rate would be with others – Life Extension Foundation’s Super Prostate (or some similar name – they only have one) reversed that for me in a matter of, I don’t remember, a few weeks.

That was despite 150 mg/day TA plus I think the same amount of testosterone propionate, or maybe only 100 mg/day. If it can work in that environment, which it did, I figure it’s good stuff.

47

Thanks Bill. If it is temporary prostate enlargement could this be considered ‘permanently’ harmful to the prostate? Or, are you just providing helpful advice to keep me asleep for longer?

48

I don’t think there is permanent harm.

It is just, as you put it, intended as helpful advice.

49

Thanks I’ll see how the next few nights go and seek it out if it hasn’t settled down by then.

50

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
On the repeated night trips to piss: I don’t think this is due to trenbolone cutting water.

But rather to temporary prostate enlargement.

Just as a personal anecdote – I have no idea what the success rate would be with others – Life Extension Foundation’s Super Prostate (or some similar name – they only have one) reversed that for me in a matter of, I don’t remember, a few weeks.

That was despite 150 mg/day TA plus I think the same amount of testosterone propionate, or maybe only 100 mg/day. If it can work in that environment, which it did, I figure it’s good stuff.[/quote]

Sorry for the thread hijack but 150mg TRA ED. Yikes Bill. How was your BP and aerobic capacity on that dose level? For that matter your appetite and sex drive? And how long did you run that?

51

[quote]saps wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
On the repeated night trips to piss: I don’t think this is due to trenbolone cutting water.

But rather to temporary prostate enlargement.

Just as a personal anecdote – I have no idea what the success rate would be with others – Life Extension Foundation’s Super Prostate (or some similar name – they only have one) reversed that for me in a matter of, I don’t remember, a few weeks.

That was despite 150 mg/day TA plus I think the same amount of testosterone propionate, or maybe only 100 mg/day. If it can work in that environment, which it did, I figure it’s good stuff.

Sorry for the thread hijack but 150mg TRA ED. Yikes Bill. How was your BP and aerobic capacity on that dose level? For that matter your appetite and sex drive? And how long did you run that?[/quote]

No worries I’m interested in the response myself

52

The belief that some have that trenbolone is bad for sex drive is I think simply wrong. Generally or perhaps always the person saying it is talking about cycles that failed to maintain normal estrogen.

No problems at all with sex drive.

No problems with blood pressure. But agreed another person certainly could have a problem with it.

I hate aerobics and generally don’t do any. It does seem that I have to switch to woman-on-top faster when on-cycle and maybe trenbolone is a particular culprit here. I hadn’t made the connection but the various comments you all have made on it do fit in with that so it could well be that I have been missing this all along.

Appetite perfectly okay.

8 weeks.

The reason for the 150 mg/day TA was really simply for the sake of knowledge from doing so. For me it was no more effective than 100 mg/day. Actually the limiting factor, IMO, was low GH, as I took none and it declines with age, and I was 46 at the time. Did better later with a mere 50 mg/day plus HCG plus GHRP-6.

The above was in my case overkill for androgen and underkill for GH. However Finaplix is not expensive and so there was no reason not to try it, and every reason to do so (namely, sake of knowledge.)

53

Good stuff Bill. Im intrigued by your phrase normal estrogen. Take my case Im 3 weeks into G a week of TE and 2 weeks into 400mg a week of TRE. I take 25mg of proviron ED as well. At this point and its hit in the past 3 days or so my sex drive is in the toilet. Now since Im not currently using an AI would your assertion be that I actually have too much estrogen and thats where my sex drive issues are coming from?

I was always under the impression that too little would kill the sex drive/libido never viewed it from a too much perspective. Because I never get gyno I guess I always thought I was ok with estrogen levels.

I have 60ml of 1mg/ml anastrozole so adding it in even at .25mg ED is a non issue. Ive always steered clear of using the AI because not only do I not mind the bloating but it kinda helps me as a powerlifter with my squat and bench [bigger gut]. I also could bump up my proviron to 50mg ED.

My other fear with using an AI is I have rather poor joints and the brittleness common with too little estrogen cripples me. It why I like Nandrolone so much too. Though tren is better for me as a PL

The phrase deca dick and tren dick do exist for a reason though.

In my specific case I know Im batting with 2 strikes already because I also take the SSRI lexapro. This can contribute to anorgasmia at times though now that my body has adjusted Im pretty ok with it. Problem is after a few weeks of a nor19 I start getting both the anorgasmia and general decrease in the sex drive/libido.

Like I said above I’ve got extra proviron. I also have grams of Cialis. So that can aide with most everything. However, if Im fundamentally doing something wrong by not intentionally throwing the adex in there I wanna know.

Thanks in advance for the input.

54

Maybe, though estrogen above the normal range doesn’t necessarily cause low sex drive. (It’s quite common to have high sex drive with high testosterone usage and no AI, but not invariable.)

The Proviron really has nothing to do with whether estrogen levels are being kept under control, nor is it to blame for lower sex drive.

If you were further into the cycle, duration might be the reason. It’s not uncommon to have much higher sex drive the first 6 weeks or so, then fairly average for a couple weeks after that, then actually declining to below usual in following weeks, even though hormone levels are staying the same throughout. But at only 3 weeks in that can’t be it, I don’t think.

There’s also such a thing as paradoxical response in this regard. Some actually do have lower sex drive in response to supraphysiologically high androgen, but they are definitely in the minority.

Things exist for a reason, but it’s not unknown for the reason to be wrong.

How do you know that your trenbolone is trenbolone? The prevalence of bogus trenbolone is extremely high due to trenbolone being a far more costly raw material than other steroids that can be substituted for it.

Maybe you are taking nandrolone, or some mix of nandrolone and trenbolone, without knowing it. For example, if the UG maker cut his “trenbolone” to be in fact a 50/50 mix with nandrolone, this would cut his cost by nearly 50%. You can see the temptation. That is a very possible explanation making, if so, your result absolutely to be expected.

Ordinarily speaking, not using the Arimidex wouldn’t be causing your problem. But it would be possible depending on the individual.

55

Bill,

Do you have a ‘policy’ on varying dosages mid-cycle?

56

Sort of: in general (exceptions below) there is no reason, other than if having realized an error.

If a given dose or set of dosages is the best estimate of the best balance between results, side effects, and cost for one given week of the cycle, it’s also the best estimate for the rest of the cycle.

The exceptions are that if the cycle exceeds 6 weeks, then it’s not desired to run 17-alkylateds throughout; the first week may be frontloaded; one might switch to short-acting injectables at the end to have a more efficient transition to recovery (either being at very effective levels or at levels allowing recovery rather than spending a lot of time in a middle ground good for neither); in the period while levels from injectables are falling off but still too high to allow recovery, one might beef up orals; or one might want to run an experiment.

For example, switching one drug during the cycle and seeing what the difference may be.

57

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Maybe, though estrogen above the normal range doesn’t necessarily cause low sex drive. (It’s quite common to have high sex drive with high testosterone usage and no AI, but not invariable.)

The Proviron really has nothing to do with whether estrogen levels are being kept under control, nor is it to blame for lower sex drive.

If you were further into the cycle, duration might be the reason. It’s not uncommon to have much higher sex drive the first 6 weeks or so, then fairly average for a couple weeks after that, then actually declining to below usual in following weeks, even though hormone levels are staying the same throughout. But at only 3 weeks in that can’t be it, I don’t think.

There’s also such a thing as paradoxical response in this regard. Some actually do have lower sex drive in response to supraphysiologically high androgen, but they are definitely in the minority.

Things exist for a reason, but it’s not unknown for the reason to be wrong.

How do you know that your trenbolone is trenbolone? The prevalence of bogus trenbolone is extremely high due to trenbolone being a far more costly raw material than other steroids that can be substituted for it. Maybe you are taking nandrolone, or some mix of nandrolone and trenbolone, without knowing it. For example, if the UG maker cut his “trenbolone” to be in fact a 50/50 mix with nandrolone, this would cut his cost by nearly 50%. You can see the temptation. That is a very possible explanation making, if so, your result absolutely to be expected.

Ordinarily speaking, not using the Arimidex wouldn’t be causing your problem. But it would be possible depending on the individual.[/quote]

Thanks Bill. I guess I will stay the course then. RE: the authenticity of my tren. Its from a/the ultra reliable powder source in China and then home brewed. I have absolutely no doubt its real. I’ve used Deca before and Deca does not give me the strength surge I get from real tren.

Also my sides on Deca outside the sexual ones are next to none. But I have so many of the classic tren sides. Sides Ive had before on genuine tren. The increased BP which I dont get nearly as bad on straight test, dbol, deca or mast, I know its the tren. The night sweats and general extra sweaty-ness. The constant need to hydrate and chiefly a substantial deterioration in aerobic capacity. Also Im doubting the Deca mix theory because my elbows are getting worse not better.

I could be wrong and I would never dispute your expertise but knowing what I know from direct personal experience and knowing how truly golden this powder source is I cannot and do not believe for a second my tren is anything other than the real McCoy.

58

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
The Proviron really has nothing to do with whether estrogen levels are being kept under control, nor is it to blame for lower sex drive.

There’s also such a thing as paradoxical response in this regard. Some actually do have lower sex drive in response to supraphysiologically high androgen, but they are definitely in the minority.

[/quote]
Bill Im kinda surprised about your comments on proviron having nothing to do with estrogen levels being kept under control. Your proviron profile over at mesorx suggests it does a little more than nothing. The main reason I take proviron is not so much for estrogen control but for its binding to the SHBG.

Which if anything should aide with sexual performance. Word on the street is pornstars take proviron along with clomid to make them better at their job :wink:

RE: the paradoxical minority. My first week on test only my sex drive was up. The second week when I started TRE it took a mini hit so I started the proviron and things seemed fine again. In week 3 it started to nose dive. Which is why I do think Im suspectible to tren dick or whatever we wanna call it. It was about 10-11 days after my first TRE shot when Mr. Happy really was not happy at all.

59

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

The exceptions are that if the cycle exceeds 6 weeks, then it’s not desired to run 17-alkylateds throughout; [/quote]

Is the main problem running the same 17-AA for the extended period and/or would problems be minimized if you were to switch to another 17-AA for the latter part of a cycle?

60

I dont think that Proviron’s effects on sex drive have much to do with any extra Test free from binding to SHBG (as the proviron has a higher affinity, and the 2% free is of a higher total amount with it added), but simply due to a higher androgen level (DHT).

B