Test/Tren/DBol with No AI

Pharma / TRT
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[quote]saps wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Maybe, though estrogen above the normal range doesn’t necessarily cause low sex drive. (It’s quite common to have high sex drive with high testosterone usage and no AI, but not invariable.)

The Proviron really has nothing to do with whether estrogen levels are being kept under control, nor is it to blame for lower sex drive.

If you were further into the cycle, duration might be the reason. It’s not uncommon to have much higher sex drive the first 6 weeks or so, then fairly average for a couple weeks after that, then actually declining to below usual in following weeks, even though hormone levels are staying the same throughout. But at only 3 weeks in that can’t be it, I don’t think.

There’s also such a thing as paradoxical response in this regard. Some actually do have lower sex drive in response to supraphysiologically high androgen, but they are definitely in the minority.

Things exist for a reason, but it’s not unknown for the reason to be wrong.

How do you know that your trenbolone is trenbolone? The prevalence of bogus trenbolone is extremely high due to trenbolone being a far more costly raw material than other steroids that can be substituted for it. Maybe you are taking nandrolone, or some mix of nandrolone and trenbolone, without knowing it. For example, if the UG maker cut his “trenbolone” to be in fact a 50/50 mix with nandrolone, this would cut his cost by nearly 50%. You can see the temptation. That is a very possible explanation making, if so, your result absolutely to be expected.

Ordinarily speaking, not using the Arimidex wouldn’t be causing your problem. But it would be possible depending on the individual.

Thanks Bill. I guess I will stay the course then. RE: the authenticity of my tren. Its from a/the ultra reliable powder source in China and then home brewed. I have absolutely no doubt its real. I’ve used Deca before and Deca does not give me the strength surge I get from real tren.

Also my sides on Deca outside the sexual ones are next to none. But I have so many of the classic tren sides. Sides Ive had before on genuine tren. The increased BP which I dont get nearly as bad on straight test, dbol, deca or mast, I know its the tren. The night sweats and general extra sweaty-ness. The constant need to hydrate and chiefly a substantial deterioration in aerobic capacity. Also Im doubting the Deca mix theory because my elbows are getting worse not better.

I could be wrong and I would never dispute your expertise but knowing what I know from direct personal experience and knowing how truly golden this powder source is I cannot and do not believe for a second my tren is anything other than the real McCoy.[/quote]

Then it sounds in this case that another of the possible reasons is the cause.

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[quote]NZ RABBIT wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:

The exceptions are that if the cycle exceeds 6 weeks, then it’s not desired to run 17-alkylateds throughout;

Is the main problem running the same 17-AA for the extended period and/or would problems be minimized if you were to switch to another 17-AA for the latter part of a cycle?

[/quote]

Switching doesn’t help.

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[quote]saps wrote:

Bill Im kinda surprised about your comments on proviron having nothing to do with estrogen levels being kept under control. Your proviron profile over at mesorx suggests it does a little more than nothing. The main reason I take proviron is not so much for estrogen control but for its binding to the SHBG. [/quote]

I’m not sure whether you mean that it appeared to you that on Meso I said that it did keep estrogen levels under control and thus now I’m contradicting myself (but I didn’t say that), or whether you’re surprised that both times I said not.

The usefulness it has is to with for some reason aiding wood and some degree of estrogen receptor blocking, which isn’t very strong but there is some effect. It might be via a vascular effect that it aids wood, as I’ve noticed better vascularity in general at least with high doses of it.

On SHBG, I know that there are other authors that claim something is accomplished by doing such a thing but that makes zero sense when actually looked at in detail. It is like thinking that the ocean levels can be changed with a bucket.

It would be a good plan.

[quote]RE: the paradoxical minority. My first week on test only my sex drive was up. The second week when I started TRE it took a mini hit so I started the proviron and things seemed fine again. In week 3 it started to nose dive. Which is why I do think Im suspectible to tren dick or whatever we wanna call it. It was about 10-11 days after my first TRE shot when Mr. Happy really was not happy at all.
[/quote]

It could be simply from androgen levels – regardless of source – being beyond your optimum for libido. At a later time you might see how your libido is with no trenbolone but about 3 mg added T for each mg of trenbolone not taken, or 1 mg of oxandrolone for each 1 mg of trenbolone not taken, or – I dunno – maybe 2 mg Masteron for each 1 mg of trenbolone not taken.

If the same effect occurs, then it’s not trenbolone per se, but paradoxical response, past some already substantial point (your present amount of T) to yet further increased androgen.

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Great stuff Bill that could make sense. Last year/cycle I ran nearly the exact same overall aas dose level 750 TE, 300-350mg TRE and 280-350mg dbol a week [this year 1G TE and 400mg TRE; I dont count the proviron] so basically 1400mg weekly give or take a few mg. Last year I did get some similar dead wood syndrome that Im getting now but it was more like after 4-5 weeks of being on. This relates to the point you made earlier, it was more off a cumulative effect.

On a side not last year I was running my TRE at just 300 or 350mg a week [I honestly dont remember which one it was but it was one of them]. I got a few mls of TRA which I thought Id add in at 50mg on top of the 300-350mg of TRE I was running. There was a mini in gym competition at my gym and I thought Id get the strength surge. Well by the third day of the extra 50mg of TRA I was miserable from every tren side which existed. MInd you this was after I’d been on the TRE for 4-5 weeks so those levels had reached saturation or whatever we wanna call it. I was literally unable get to and certainly not keep any wood. Not just that but my heart would race and Id be sucking air from doing a set of 10. Maybe I was on the extra tren too short to notice the benefit but I wasnt surging in strength like I thought I might. After the 4th day I stopped the TRA 2 days later the problem started to subside quickly. Which suggests to me the clearance time of the acetate. Thats why I choose the level of TRE I do now because Im convinced based on my little mini experiment by body cannot take the functional equivalent of 100mgED of tren hence my 400mg weekly dose. Any higher and its not my dick that bothers me but just living my life as a result of the sides.

So in this case was it the extra 200mg of tren that pushed my total exogenous androgen levels just over the edge. Or was it the fact that over that 4-5 day period I pumped 500-500mg of tren in me. I think it was the extra tren because as aforementioned 3-4 days after I stopped the ace it was more normal.

Although now you got me thinking about this whole thing. My 2 cycle prior to these last two with tren were with deca. I did 500test and 300deca and 500 test 300deca 280dbol the 2 cycles prior. Even on the 800mg total aas I was getting the “deca dick”. But I wonder if as you assert even 800mg puts me in that paradoxical response as you called it. As you say I’d almost have to try a 1500mg test only cycle to see if its dose or compund related but I dont know if thats in the cards for me.

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The good news is most likely the dosage that is going past your optimum for sex drive is also quite possibly just overkill in your case anyway, relative to the quite solid 750 mg/week test enanthate, 300-350 mg/week tren enanthate, and 280-350 mg/week Dianabol.

So if wanting to go up a notch the thing to do would probably be to stay at the androgen level that worked well for you before and get the extra notch with for example GH or GHRP-6. The first being what I’d pick given availability and affordability if these happen to be the case.

Deca I think creates the wood problem for an additional and entirely unnecessary reason: progestagenic effect, most likely. In that regard the symptom can be compound related. But in the case of trenbolone it seems to me it is either low-estrogen or more-total-androgen-than-suited-to-the-individual related.

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Marvelous Bill. Indeed I have been looking into GH. Affordability is key there. Which is maybe why I’d lean towards GHRP 6 first. Lot o guys have decent results on it and its cost is a fraction of GH

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I’ve taken this stack before with arimidex .5mg/eod and it kept bloat down, but I didn’t have much of a libido. Stopped the adex and started taking nolva 20mg/ed and noticed a boost in sex drive, but got some bloat. Maybe adex @ .25mg/e3d would be just enough to keep your bloat down.

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Cheers Pahogan,

Bloat not an issue at all this time round with .25mg/d adex or for whatever reason. Libido down a bit since the first fortnight. Starting to make massive leaps with the iron. Strength seems to kick in late for me. Previously strength increased the most at the end and after a primo cycle.

Happy juicing

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ok so its done. Well sort of but I’ll get to that soon. Gone 8 weeks overall gained about ten pounds but I ate extremely clean and only slightly above maintenance as I’ve followed the see-food approach in the past and can’t be bothered with the post-cycle adipose clean up that is soo much harder these days.

Strength increases were ridiculous especially in the second half of cycle. Managed a 14 week blast on DC and tbh I don’t want to stop but I realise, both, I can’t blast forever and I can’t stay on gear forever. Generally every session leg weights went up at least 10 pounds per exercise with the same or even more reps. Upper at least 5 pounds per exercise.

Sides were minimal. Around week six nipples got a bit sensitive but I realised I was due to cease injecting test so I just kept adex at 0.25mg/d. Being out of breath at times whilst doing easy-moderate cardio was a little irritating but nothing more. On the 20 rep quad widowmaker it caused me the most grief and sometimes had to rack the bar even though my legs were capable of a few extra reps.

Around week 4 I upped the dbol from 30mg to 50mg and began to get back pumps, particularly when squatting. I then got some taurine and saw a drastic reduction in these pumps. At least a 50% drop in severity.

This leads me to something else I would like to discuss with you guys. I was aware that higher estrogen levels due to the aromatising compounds would cause an increase in water retention. Whilst this was the case it wasn’t too bad at all. However, throughout the course of the cycle fat loss became slower and slower. Whilst it wasn’t the goal of the cycle I know how much I can eat and how much cardio I need to do to drop the fat. Normally the way I was eating and with how much cardio I was doing I would expect around a 2% drop in BF. However, I would suggest that my BF is around the same as when I started.

I am around 10-12%.

This leads me to believe that I should have used more adex, especially considering I increased the dbol dosage mid-way.

So this is what I’m thinking of doing to assess whether or not estrogen has a significant effect upon my BF levels. Keep taking adex at 0.25mg/d and continue to use tren for another couple of weeks under full knowledge that my E levels will be low. Obviously keeping diet/cardio/lifestyle as similar as poss as the past 8 weeks.

Do you see any major concerns with this idea?

Will E truly be low as I hear of an E rebound once you come off test?

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bump

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This isn’t a great idea… your estrogen wont just be ‘low’ it will be sucking fumes. You may get ill, irritable, have dry joints, a loss of libido, dry skin… etc.

When you say you gained 10lbs whilst keeping your bodyfat the same… do you mean the lbs of bodyfat stayed the same, or the percentage… as of course if the former, then your bodyfat % will have been lowered.

Not only this, but i am yet to meet a person who can measure bodyfat to 2% accuracy by eye only.

You do not need to run an experiment to assess whether estrogen affects bodyfat - it does, i can tell you that.
Also, you should be aware, that 0.25mg of Adex with 500mg Test and 350mg Dbol is hardly enough, and i am not at all surprised that fat levels were maintained (at least).

JJ

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ok thanks JJ. Cycle officially done then. What a great learning experience.

In terms of percentage BF I just use the mirror.

Till next time