Leaked Cables, Cuban Healthcare System

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
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[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
By the way, Maximus, I do know a couple from Cuba, and they have good things to say about the country. They acknowledge that it is not as rich as the US (a claim no one has made anywhere) but that they do a good job with the limited resources they have.

I have not previously mentioned this because, as I said, anecdotes are not applicable to statistical issues such as this.[/quote]

If you had a serious illness, something even life threatening, would you want to be in a country that “does a good job with the limited resources they have?”

Ryan, I will make this very simple.

In 2002, my father was diagnosed with bladder cancer while in Italy, which was had a very high ranked health care system according to the World Health Organization. His situation was terminal, yet was told he would have to wait a minimum of 1 year for his surgery. Now, you know as well as I do, that waiting a year for surgery for terminal cancer is a death sentence. He ended up passing away while waiting.

Now let’s examine Cuba, and consider a similar situation to the one I mentioned with my dad, because that is the reality that Michael Moore misses with his movie. From what I remember, I think he mentioned that one young French kid who had a tumor, he didn’t address anything overly major. Colds and flus are not the main culprit of disease in this country. Heart disease, diabetes, and cancer are the biggest problems we face here, and you don’t want to be somewhere where you have to wait, have limited resources, lack of knowledge or technology to deal with it.

Ryan, if your family member was very sick, would you really suggest they go to Cuba for it? Don’t give me a fucking stat, make a decision from what you know, not what you read from some journal that could very well be easily manipulated.

I am sure Cuba gets by reasonably well for what they have, but they don’t have what we have (obviously). And when you are faced with some serious shit, you declare war on it. Don’t bring a knife to a gun fight, you bring an ICBM missile, know what I mean?

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If Cuba is so great why are they risking their lives to get here? The statistics makes it sound like paradise, Island? Check, high literacy rate? Check, Free food? Check, Free housing?Check, Free health care? Check. So either all of these things are very shitty, or the people risking their lives are retarded.

Which one is it?

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[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Maximus, I honestly don’t care what you think. But answer a question for me: if I made a claim, and you posted a link that clearly proved me wrong, would you expect me to admit it?

Please don’t dodge this question like you have everything else.[/quote]

You post links that contradict your own claims yet you are too stupid to realize it. That is why no one takes you seriously.

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[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Maximus, I honestly don’t care what you think. But answer a question for me: if I made a claim, and you posted a link that clearly proved me wrong, would you expect me to admit it?

Please don’t dodge this question like you have everything else.[/quote]

No, I would not expect you to admit it. I don’t think you have the nobility or humility to admit when you are wrong, let alone even could be wrong. [/quote]

OK, then why do you even participate in “debate” at all?

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[quote]John S. wrote:
If Cuba is so great why are they risking their lives to get here? The statistics makes it sound like paradise, Island? Check, high literacy rate? Check, Free food? Check, Free housing?Check, Free health care? Check. So either all of these things are very shitty, or the people risking their lives are retarded.

Which one is it?[/quote]

Check your premises. Not that many people do.

The rest of your statistics are wrong; are you surprised you’re wrong about this?

67

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Maximus, I honestly don’t care what you think. But answer a question for me: if I made a claim, and you posted a link that clearly proved me wrong, would you expect me to admit it?

Please don’t dodge this question like you have everything else.[/quote]

No, I would not expect you to admit it. I don’t think you have the nobility or humility to admit when you are wrong, let alone even could be wrong. [/quote]

OK, then why do you even participate in “debate” at all?
[/quote]

Because whether or not I debate is not dependent on whether or not you cop to you being wrong. I do not think it rests within you, to humble yourself into admitting you even could be wrong. I have accepted this, I think most people on these boards have too. I think many of us here are e-tapping you on the head, saying “there there Ryan,” knowing full well that we all thought we were all knowing at your age.

68

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Maximus, I honestly don’t care what you think. But answer a question for me: if I made a claim, and you posted a link that clearly proved me wrong, would you expect me to admit it?

Please don’t dodge this question like you have everything else.[/quote]

No, I would not expect you to admit it. I don’t think you have the nobility or humility to admit when you are wrong, let alone even could be wrong. [/quote]

OK, then why do you even participate in “debate” at all?
[/quote]

Because whether or not I debate is not dependent on whether or not you cop to you being wrong. I do not think it rests within you, to humble yourself into admitting you even could be wrong. I have accepted this, I think most people on these boards have too. I think many of us here are e-tapping you on the head, saying “there there Ryan,” knowing full well that we all thought we were all knowing at your age.
[/quote]

For sure. When I was 20, I thought I knew everything; by the time I was 30, I realized full well that I didn’t know shit. The older I get, the smarter my father gets.

69

But it doesn’t even make sense to “debate” (you are not debating) if you are not ever willing to admit you are wrong and you don’t expect your opponent to either. Furthermore, if this is really the way you feel, I find it hard to understand why it is that you get upset when people don’t agree with you.

You know nothing about me. I am in reality a very humble person, far more humble than you, because I make sure I have the facts before I claim I am right.

The problem with this post is that it depends on the assumption that I am wrong and I am not admitting it. But I am right, the statistics clearly show it, and now even some of your fellow conservatives are pointing out your dishonesty/confusion.

This has nothing to do with “thinking I am knowing,” and the fact that you continue to pretend that it is is simply more dishonesty from you–it has to do with facts and numbers, which you disregard because they are inconvenient for you. Even if I were arrogant, inexperienced, etc., none of it matters here, because as has been pointed out to you, it doesn’t matter where an argument comes from–it only matters if it is correct or not.

Once again, hold any opinion you wish, but do not get on these boards and criticize and belittle Democrats, progressives, and leftists, when you are the one who doesn’t know what he is talking about.

70

For the most part, no one has provided any non-anecdotal information to contradict what Ryan has posted.
If you know what he is saying is wrong, provide some reputable sources to back up your position.

72

[quote]Chushin wrote:
Ryan,

Sorry if I’ve been dense or something, but are you claiming that medical care in Cuba is better than that in the US? If so, what “statistics” are you basing that conclusion on.

I’m imagining that Cuba might not be so different from Japan, where the system looks pretty good “on paper” but sucks in reality. [/quote]

Why do you think it sucks? Is it from personal experience? I only ask as my experiences of the Japanese healthcare system have been nothing but positive. So far I have had three operations and found the level of care to be excellent.

73

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
For the most part, no one has provided any non-anecdotal information to contradict what Ryan has posted.
If you know what he is saying is wrong, provide some reputable sources to back up your position.[/quote]

Do you need anecdotal stats telling you that running across a freeway is really fucking stupid? Do we need beard scratching cubicle hamsters telling you that touching a scalding hot pan will burn the shit out of you? Really ?

The health care system in Cuba might be considered better, in the sense that everyone has access to it. But the quality of care there is what is being scrutinized. Ryan mentioned that they do the best with what they have, and I agree with that. Shit, I am sure every country does the best with what they have. But we (the US) have more. Michael Moore’s portrayal in his movie Sicko was so horribly skewed, it does not represent what every day care looks like.

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Spiderman, he thinks it sucks because he has been told to believe it sucks, and he doesn’t have the cranial capacity to questions what he’s told.

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No one is saying it is better, stop lying. What I am saying, and what the facts bear out, is that it is not only not a shithole, but they do a very good job with the resources that they have. Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge this, when it is obviously true? God, the right is greedy.

I also remind you that you have done nothing to damage any of Moore’s claims. You simply continue to whine about it.

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[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

But it doesn’t even make sense to “debate” (you are not debating) if you are not ever willing to admit you are wrong and you don’t expect your opponent to either. Furthermore, if this is really the way you feel, I find it hard to understand why it is that you get upset when people don’t agree with you.

You know nothing about me. I am in reality a very humble person, far more humble than you, because I make sure I have the facts before I claim I am right.

The problem with this post is that it depends on the assumption that I am wrong and I am not admitting it. But I am right, the statistics clearly show it, and now even some of your fellow conservatives are pointing out your dishonesty/confusion.

This has nothing to do with “thinking I am knowing,” and the fact that you continue to pretend that it is is simply more dishonesty from you–it has to do with facts and numbers, which you disregard because they are inconvenient for you. Even if I were arrogant, inexperienced, etc., none of it matters here, because as has been pointed out to you, it doesn’t matter where an argument comes from–it only matters if it is correct or not.

Once again, hold any opinion you wish, but do not get on these boards and criticize and belittle Democrats, progressives, and leftists, when you are the one who doesn’t know what he is talking about.
[/quote]

Ryan, my goal when “debating” is to be presented with different ideas and opinion, which then goes to form, shape, and frame a better opinion for myself. I think that we all think differently, and should you present an argument that I missed or didn’t consider, then that would be a good thing. This issue with the Cuban health care system is flawed because it has been downright intentionally skewed to portray something it is not. What Michael Moore showed is not everyday life in Cuba, and what is available to Cubans.

Cuba might cover all their people with their care, but at the cost of that very same care. Our problem here in the US, is the political redtape bullshit that we go through to get care. Insurance companies that boot you when you get sick, deny treatment that is considered experimental, or make plans so expensive you simply cannot afford it.

Here is a true story Ryan. About 3 years ago, I had surgery. 9 months after the surgery, my insurance company took back their payment saying it was considered experimental. I asked why they accepted the claim when it was originally submitted, got no answer. So I got stiffed with a bill of $20k. I called up Blue Cross, declared FUCKING THUNDERDOME ON THEM, and began my appeal. I did my research on the surgery, the FDA approved it 5 yrs prior, so why the fuck would it be considered experimental? I won my appeal, Blue Cross called me and said they would appeal the appeal. I said ok, bring it bitch. They didn’t bother filing the appeal, so I didn’t have to pay the $20k. Would I have preferred going to Cuba to avoid dealing with this shit? Hell no, I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Do you know what I mean? The quality of care here is outstanding overall, it’s the red tape bullshit you have to get around here.

77

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

No one is saying it is better, stop lying. What I am saying, and what the facts bear out, is that it is not only not a shithole, but they do a very good job with the resources that they have. Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge this, when it is obviously true? God, the right is greedy.

I also remind you that you have done nothing to damage any of Moore’s claims. You simply continue to whine about it.

[/quote]

What they have to work with is not enough. People here are not dying from fevers, sprained ankles, the shits, or stuffy noses.

The right is greedy? How about “the sick” are greedy? I believe that I should and shall fight for the best care that I or my loved ones can receive, anywhere in the world. Does that make me greedy? Fuck yes then I am greedy! But you won’t be insulting a dead man, trust and believe that. Would I risk life and limb floating on a raft to get to a place where my chances of surviving and thriving are better? Hell yes.

Ryan, these aren’t people going out sailing on a nice day on a yacht. They know full well that they could easily die trying to get here, that is the measure of their resolve. That is the truth of their situation. Imagine what someone must be going through to want to leave what they know to come here on a homemade raft.

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[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Do you need anecdotal stats telling you that running across a freeway is really fucking stupid? Do we need beard scratching cubicle hamsters telling you that touching a scalding hot pan will burn the shit out of you? Really ?[/quote]
I don’t think these deserve to be mentioned in a discussion about Cuba. It weakens your argument to the position of ‘it is because it is’, and that isn’t providing any facts or base for your argument.
Being Canadian, I’m somewhat of a third party here, I have no direct ties to either of these countries. Ryan has been providing sources, facts and stats for his position while you have not. So again, don’t just say you’re right b/c you’re ‘obviously right’, show me you’re right, then I’ll some base to go off of to believe what you’re saying is fact. I haven’t seen sicko, so I can’t comment on the content of it.

Or possibly better b/c they’ve been cut off from just about the entire world.

Question: Why is there sanctions against Cuba? b/c of communism? something else?
I’m not familiar with US history, so if someone would let me know why and how as far as their understanding of the situation is that would be great.

79

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ryan, my goal when “debating” is to be presented with different ideas and opinion, which then goes to form, shape, and frame a better opinion for myself. I think that we all think differently, and should you present an argument that I missed or didn’t consider, then that would be a good thing. This issue with the Cuban health care system is flawed because it has been downright intentionally skewed to portray something it is not. What Michael Moore showed is not everyday life in Cuba, and what is available to Cubans. [/quote]
Afaik, Ryan didn’t use Sicko as one of his sources for his information, your side of the argument did.

IMO, healthcare insurance shouldn’t be a business. Trying to make money off of denying people care that is available is, IMO, comparable to being a war profiteer.

I’m glad that you got out of your preicament safe and sound, and didn’t get stuck with a bill that you didn’t deserve. But your experience has nothing to do with Cuban healthcare.

80

[quote]MaximusB wrote:What they have to work with is not enough. People here are not dying from fevers, sprained ankles, the shits, or stuffy noses.

The right is greedy? How about “the sick” are greedy? I believe that I should and shall fight for the best care that I or my loved ones can receive, anywhere in the world. Does that make me greedy? Fuck yes then I am greedy! But you won’t be insulting a dead man, trust and believe that. Would I risk life and limb floating on a raft to get to a place where my chances of surviving and thriving are better? Hell yes.

Ryan, these aren’t people going out sailing on a nice day on a yacht. They know full well that they could easily die trying to get here, that is the measure of their resolve. That is the truth of their situation. Imagine what someone must be going through to want to leave what they know to come here on a homemade raft. [/quote]

Then why not remove the sanctions placed against them that is causing them to risk life-and-limb? When is it time to let go of the past and move on? I’m sure America could use a lesson in ‘efficiency and making due with what you have’ from Cuba.

In the end, IMO, we’re all brothers on this planet, and to needlessly, perhaps maliciously(?) hold a brother down isn’t right, and will only create unnecessary tension down the road. You wouldn’t punish an enemy’s children over what their father did, would you? So why do it to a new generation of a country?