The cops just got a little over excited that they finally got to carry guns.
It won’t happen again.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The cops just got a little over excited that they finally got to carry guns.
It won’t happen again.[/quote]
Does it need to?
When I stated a quick decision I was reffering to the fact that the guy was going to get on the subway(which just blew the fuck up the other week) and possibly blow another train to pieces. It was a mistake and they happen. Not listening to intel prior to pearl harbor was a mistake and look what happened. Not allowing the FBI and CIA to share intel was a mistake and look what happened. Law enforcement and counterterrorism is not a science, neither is war. This guys family will go to court and probably be awarded millions of pounds and some police officers will probably go to jail or the very least not have a job ever again. You can’t judge the decision someone made until you were in their shoes.
[quote]snipeout wrote:
You can’t judge the decision someone made until you were in their shoes.[/quote]
Bullshit. As stated before, I would love to hear people like you make this statement the next time a doctor “mistakenly” does something that causes your loved one to die prematurely. Would you so easily state, “Oh well, You can’t judge the decision someone made until you were in their shoes”? This was a very blatant mistake and cover up. They just reported this again on CNN and they clearly lied to cover it up. There was no bulky overcoat. The man was given no instructions to halt. There was no positive ID match made by video before they rushed troops after the man. This was a HUGE mistake and we can very well judge what happened.
Before I say anytihng let me start this by saying that apparently these cops were very wrong. That aside… Your comparing precise medical procedures preformed numerous times to a field decision made in law enforcement and counteterrorism? Have you done anything outside of all the schooling you have been through, or do you just monday morning quarterback situations that you would never be in? You just can’t compare any decision made in law enforcement or the military to a medical procedure.
The procedure may be preformed hundreds of times, where as in a situation like this(not this one because it seems the police were wrong) you have a split second to make a decision that may effect hundreds of others. Just out of curiosity, what was your take on the marine who shot the insurgent who was playing dead in the mosque?
[quote]snipeout wrote:
Before I say anytihng let me start this by saying that apparently these cops were very wrong. That aside… Your comparing precise medical procedures preformed numerous times to a field decision made in law enforcement and counteterrorism? Have you done anything outside of all the schooling you have been through, or do you just monday morning quarterback situations that you would never be in? You just can’t compare any decision made in law enforcement or the military to a medical procedure.
The procedure may be preformed hundreds of times, where as in a situation like this(not this one because it seems the police were wrong) you have a split second to make a decision that may effect hundreds of others. Just out of curiosity, what was your take on the marine who shot the insurgent who was playing dead in the mosque?[/quote]
I never heard of that story and have no info on it. I am weapons trained. All soldiers are who are deployed at any time. I understand that in unpredictable situations, things arise where split second decisions are made. Why do you think this is any different than what happens in surgery? One of the keys to being a good professional is being able to handle split second decisions and making the right choices in them. That is the reason for drills and training. If a patient passes out during a minor procedure, are you telling me that you don’t see the unexpected connection here? What is done in those initial seconds makes the difference in the outcome. There is no difference other than one is holding a gun and one is holding a scalpel.
You are all too ready to give a free pass for this for some reason. If we have cops that can’t make those decisions, then they need to be pulled from duty. If something like this had happened in New York without the terrorist link, the entire world would be on those cops for racial profiling and murder. Why is anyone looking at this differently? They lied and killed an innocent man. For a group of people who won’t let a man lie about having sex while being president, we sure do seem ready to let these people slide when someone actually lost their life.
There’s a reason why ABBers and fervent Bush supporters hate each other - they’re both zealots. Let’s not kid each other here. If you’re going to compare an extreme right wing Republican to terrorists, might as well apply the same logic to the ABBers here. I’d much prefer Plato’s philosophy of a healthy balance between the two extremes.
I see what you’re saying professor, and I’m not giving these guys a free a pass, from what I read it was ONE cop who majorly screwed up, in the state of new jersey and most any state that cop would be in jail shortly after the investigation revealed he had MURDERED this guy. The difference I was trying to point out is that in surgery it’s one life, in a situatiion like that if he had been wearing a homicide bombers belt your talking about numerous lives and how your inability to act as opposed to react could cost your life and countless others.
Snipe, everyone does understand the fact that the decisions made are significant. However, that is not a good reason to have people with poor decision making skills involved.
Also, what you really seem to be missing is the whole cover up after the fact. You can’t have the police go around inventing the truth like that.
Unfortunately, from time to time, it really does happen. We had a case here in my home town where the police were speeding along for no reason, with a case of beer in the trunk, with no lights or sirens.
They killed a local businessman when they crashed into him at an intersection. They tried to blame the businessman, and finally an inquiry came out and cleared everyone of wrongdoing.
It’s a crock of shit, they were simply having fun, being irresponsible, but nobody would let the truth out.
Blind trust in authority is just plain stupid. These are just people doing jobs… and there are bad people or bad cultures in organizations everywhere. Of course it is natural to cover up and protect for your buddies, but it goes directly counter to the need for authority to be accountable to the public.
Is anyone so racist that they truly want a culture where anyone with a beard and skin that isn’t lily white can be shot on site, just in case? What kind of society would that turn out to be? If you let the police make mistakes such as this one, and nobody is punished for such a blatant lack of judgement or proprer procedure, then that is the direction you will go.
It’s okay, you can break all the rules, as long as you can lie and make up a story and it was all done as part of “the war on terror”.
It is only one man, but the innocent victim in this case was terrorized by the police, and he paid his life. The number of people who are terror victims in Britain just went up dramatically… depending on your visual appearance.
Nice job, defending that. However, as usual, I guess if it doesn’t affect us, it really doesn’t matter…
If you don’t stand up when they kill your neighbors, who’s going to stand up for you?
Snipe. It was an accident. You know that, most people do, but apparently there is no acceptance of accidents for some. Blame anyone but those that are the root cause…that’s too un PC.
The press and others will dwell on this to the point that some will only be satisfied that it is a suicide bomber after he blows himself up. After all it’s better to be really sure, and those mass casualties well it’s the cost of a free society right.
It’s easy when you live someplace that terrorism is a far off event. Unfortunately NY, Wash, LA are all in the crosshairs. So is London.
You live in NJ…my how the NY skyline has changed. Remember the old one? Those two towers off to the left. Terrorism changed the face of that skyline. The NYPD and most professional PD’s would do the same thing. It sucks but it also happens in this type of environment. It’s not the cops fault…it’s the terrorists.
[quote]hedo wrote:
Snipe. It was an accident. You know that, most people do, but apparently there is no acceptance of accidents for some. Blame anyone but those that are the root cause…that’s too un PC.
The press and others will dwell on this to the point that some will only be satisfied that it is a suicide bomber after he blows himself up. After all it’s better to be really sure, and those mass casualties well it’s the cost of a free society right.
It’s easy when you live someplace that terrorism is a far off event. Unfortunately NY, Wash, LA are all in the crosshairs. So is London.
You live in NJ…my how the NY skyline has changed. Remember the old one? Those two towers off to the left. Terrorism changed the face of that skyline. The NYPD and most professional PD’s would do the same thing. It sucks but it also happens in this type of environment. It’s not the cops fault…it’s the terrorists.[/quote]
Probably the best post in this thread. Great post, hedo.
[quote]hedo wrote:
Snipe. It was an accident. You know that, most people do, but apparently there is no acceptance of accidents for some. Blame anyone but those that are the root cause…that’s too un PC.[/quote]
This is utter BS. It was an “accident” before we found out how they executed improper protocol and began a very large cover up with lies that even expanded into what he was actually wearing. That makes it a fuck up, a cover up and a murder. Get your terminology right.
[quote]hedo wrote:
It’s not the cops fault…it’s the terrorists.[/quote]
Then the terrorists win. If the cops in a “free” country are scared so shitless that they start shooting civilians left, right, and center we are no better off in a “free” country than any regime. I’m not saying it wasn’t an accident (it was a VERY BAD accident), but, I’d like to “draw the line here and no further”. I’m not about zero innocent casualties in the war on terror, but when we ambush and execute innocent bystanders on our own soil, that’s more than acceptable collateral damage.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
hedo wrote:
Snipe. It was an accident. You know that, most people do, but apparently there is no acceptance of accidents for some. Blame anyone but those that are the root cause…that’s too un PC.
This is utter BS. It was an “accident” before we found out how they executed improper protocol and began a very large cover up with lies that even expanded into what he was actually wearing. That makes it a fuck up, a cover up and a murder. Get your terminology right.[/quote]
Save your attitiude for someone who would actually be intimidated by you.
You simplistic analysis speaks volumes.
Just let them blow up…then the Londoners will be sure they are bombers.
Have a nice day.
[quote]hedo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
hedo wrote:
Snipe. It was an accident. You know that, most people do, but apparently there is no acceptance of accidents for some. Blame anyone but those that are the root cause…that’s too un PC.
This is utter BS. It was an “accident” before we found out how they executed improper protocol and began a very large cover up with lies that even expanded into what he was actually wearing. That makes it a fuck up, a cover up and a murder. Get your terminology right.
Save your attitiude for someone who would actually be intimidated by you.
You simplistic analysis speaks volumes.
Just let them blow up…then the Londoners will be sure they are bombers.
Have a nice day.
[/quote]
My simplistic analysis? You are the one who ignored the cover up and the lie. You are the one who is making it seem as if it was just a simple case of mistaken identity. That would make you the one throwing out simplistic acceptance of what happened.
Thats the problem today hedo, people want triple reassurance. Only if the terrorists had to a reassure us they were going to explode, not just push a detonator. In this instance the police were wrong in their actions, maybe the trigger pull was accidental. Thats why we are trained to keep our finger off the triggers and in register. This one cop shot this guy while he was pinned down, from 12 inches away and when he was outnumbered and unarmed probably 5 to 1. Then they tried to cover it up.
I hate terrorism and I hate liberals, but wrong is wrong. We are fighting an unfair war, and even though I support a certain degree of racial profiling to fight terrorism(mainly the suspension of student visas and immediate deportation of all those here from the mideast on student visas) I don’t support killing someone on the basis that they looked mideastern.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=657383
Apparently, I am not the only one who sees this as more than just an “accident”. I am amazed that anyone would downplay this cover up. Some you come across as accepting anything, no matter how corrupt, as long as it flows with your poltical affiliation.
What we are seeing here is a fanatacism which is no different than the terrorists own fanatacism.
The authorities, in the prosecution of this war on terror, can commit no wrong. There can be no blame, ever, for any action taken, no matter how incorrect, unless it is placed on terrorists. Lies and cover ups are of course allowed.
Congratulations on being the right wing equivalent of Islamofascists. You’ll feel this way until the abuse of authority hits close to home, but at that point it will be far too late – unless of course you are the one committing the abuse.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Congratulations on being the right wing equivalent of Islamofascists. You’ll feel this way until the abuse of authority hits close to home, but at that point it will be far too late – unless of course you are the one committing the abuse.[/quote]
It’s funny, but I really don’t think they can see that. Killing a man and lying about it to the point of impeding an internal investigation of it is just “an accident” now. You would have to be blind (or filled with politically/religiously influenced hatred) to not see where this is headed if this is accepted.
[quote]snipeout wrote:
Thats the problem today hedo, people want triple reassurance. Only if the terrorists had to a reassure us they were going to explode, not just push a detonator. In this instance the police were wrong in their actions, maybe the trigger pull was accidental. Thats why we are trained to keep our finger off the triggers and in register. This one cop shot this guy while he was pinned down, from 12 inches away and when he was outnumbered and unarmed probably 5 to 1. Then they tried to cover it up.
I hate terrorism and I hate liberals, but wrong is wrong. We are fighting an unfair war, and even though I support a certain degree of racial profiling to fight terrorism(mainly the suspension of student visas and immediate deportation of all those here from the mideast on student visas) I don’t support killing someone on the basis that they looked mideastern.[/quote]
This man who died lived across an ocean from you. He is a character on the evening news show. Now if it had been your mother, wife, or child, I don’t think you would have such a cavalier attitude of “well that’s just a sacrifice we have to make in my lords war on terror”.
You hate liberals… I disdain men who due to feelings of inferiority and low self esteem have to latch onto macho bullshit rhetoric to feel like men.