T Nation

The Police Lied


This was on the ITV News

The Brazilian electrician was killed on 22 July, the day after the series of failed bombings on the tube and bus network.

The crucial mistake that ultimately led to his death was made at 9.30am when Jean Charles left his flat in Scotia Road, South London.

Surveillance officers wrongly believed he could have been Hussain Osman, one of the prime suspects, or another terrorist suspect.

By 10am that morning, elite firearms officers were provided with what they describe as "positive identification" and shot De Menezes eight times in the head and upper body.

The documents and photographs confirm that Jean Charles was not carrying any bags, and was wearing a denim jacket, not a bulky winter coat, as had previously been claimed.

He was behaving normally, and did not vault the barriers, even stopping to pick up a free newspaper.

He started running when we saw a tube at the platform. Police had agreed they would shoot a suspect if he ran.

A document describes CCTV footage, which shows Mr de Menezes entered Stockwell station at a "normal walking pace" and descended slowly on an escalator.

The document said: "At some point near the bottom he is seen to run across the concourse and enter the carriage before sitting in an available seat.

"Almost simultaneously armed officers were provided with positive identification."

A member of the surveillance team is quoted in the report. He said: "I heard shouting which included the word `police' and turned to face the male in the denim jacket.

"He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the CO19 officers. I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.

"I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting. I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage."

The report also said a post mortem examination showed Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, but three other bullets missed, with the casings left lying in the tube carriage.

Police have declined to comment while the mistaken killing is still being investigated.


hoooray profiling


They almost have to, if they value their skin or careers. Not backing up your buddies is a great way to get them to not back you up either.

Almost all of us will proclaim, often angrily, that we would never do anything but the right thing, and at any and all cost. But few of us would or do, especially at the risk of life or career.

The truth is, life can force us into some terrible situations. And then, sometimes, gives us only a choice between terrible ways to get out of them, if we have any choice at all, or can get out of them at all.


Too bad the terrorists set off those bombs and caused this action to occur.

Too bad an innocent had to die trying to kill a murdering terrorist.


Yeah, too bad.

Easy to say if it isn't you or someone you love.

Who needs rights?

Not I! I'm law abiding! The police would never do anything they shouldn't to me!

If you don't stand up for your neighbors, who will stand up for you?

Up until recently, the system was designed to protect the innocent. In fact, wars have been fought for freedom from government abuse. Don't you forget that in your rabid hatred.

Citizens will throw off the yoke of government when it gets too heavy, especially if they stop believing they need that yoke for their own good...


I'm waiting to see some of the ABB awssholes on here try and twist this to somehow be Bush's fault.

Everyone knows it's Bush's fault.


It's just a damned shame. But I guess it'll keep our prisons a little emptier if we can just do summary executions of anyone who is "positively IDed."


Are you justifying this? I am amazed at how soon people forget how long we fought just in this country (and some would argue are still fighting) for this type of thing to stop happening, especially in terms of minorities. Are there terrorists? yes. Does this mean we should start shooting anyone who looks like someone else and then publicly lie about the circumstances? I have no doubt some people are actually dumb enough to applaud this action.


Actually, if you look back on various world events over the past several years they are all Bush's fault! In fact, even non-world, seemingly unimportant events are Bush's fault.

Take that messy garage that you have been wanting to clear out, it's Bush's fault!

Wife bought you boxers instead of briefs: Bush's fault!

That moron who was ahead of you in traffic and would not travel over 30 MPH: Bush's fault!

Look I could go on, but you get the idea. My world is very simple and clean. if anything goes wrong, and I mean ANYTHING, I blame Bush. It cuts back on stress.

You don't think I have the facts to back up my claims? I Don't need facts, since I hate Bush all of those things must be his fault. You see people that I don't agree with politically are simply evil. They must be evil since I don't like them....And when people are evil everything is their fault, and I don't need "facts" getting in the way.

After all I have no facts regarding the "blood for oil" war I keep talking about, but I blame Bush anyway. :slightly_smiling:

I have no facts to back up Bush being responsible for high gas prices, but I blame him anyway.

On the other hand there are tons of facts to support that most everyone thought Saddam had WMD's, but I blame Bush alone for thinking that and I say HE LIED!

You see, my life is simple...I just blame Bush.

Taking the family on a picnic this weekend. I hope it doesn't rain, but if it does I know who to blame. :wink:


Did anyone actually say something about Bush in this post or have you finally lost it?


Yeah, I had a bad feeling about this story from the start. The guy was running so they shot him, 7 times, in the head. Riiight.

Also, is it just me or is the reporting of this story (in this case) really bad as well?

Makes it sound like the crucial mistake was him leaving his house. I'd put the crucial mistake here:

Get him in custody, then shoot him if he flees. Then it's the suspects fault for evading arrest, not "running".

What documents and photographs?, police reports?, internal affairs reports?, eye witness reports?, the teleprompter?


Putting a bullet into someone's head is a terrible situation, so for this particular situation to have occured, anywhere between 7 people one time and one person seven times had to be in that terrible place.

Now, every single one of those guys had to know the suspect's face (not the man they shot), and anyone close enough to put a bullet in his head definitely saw his face (unless they all shot him in the back of the head). And the news report seems to indicate that one man even had hold of him. I'm not saying I or everyone else should/would do the right thing all the time, but something went seriously wrong here. Almost too much to just be accidental (not saying it was intentional, but it's much more than "toes over the line" accidental).


It seems like the brits took a page out of the Isreali playbook for dealing with suicide bombers. If a person on the palestinian side of a checkpoint walks up in bulky clothes or is suspected of being a bomber, they will either tackle him with a five man snatch team to imobilize him, isolate him and try to force him to surrender without detonating, or shoot him in the head.

They will take a shot without verifying if there is a bomb in order to prevent casualties. The brits made a mistake in identifing the guy. If there is a threat of a person detonating a bomb vest, there is really no other way of stopping them other than a shot to the head. That isn't an excuse for wacking a civilian though.


It was a pre-emptive strike. Do you honestly think that bad news won't get pinned on Bush? It's pretty much SOP for the ABB crew.


First off, what's the ITV news? Second off, with as liberally biased as OUR media is (cnn) why haven't we heard anything about this on our news media or even in the new york slimes? I'm gonna call BS. What you describe sounds like an execution, and what about the hundreds of regular citizens that witnessed this happen in public. This version has more holes than swiss cheese.


Uh, it was an execution regardless.


I have a down jacket that I bought years ago. Everytime I wear it, people ask "aren't you too warm?", and every time I explain how it's an old jacket, it has lost almost all the down, and now, although it looks "bulky" is little more than a windbreaker. Ever since I heard this story, whenever it's a little brisk, and I put on my old jacket, I thank God I live in Canada, where I (for the time being) won't get tackled and executed for looking suspicious.


I know, I just miss the old, sane Zeb. I kind of credit him for helping me to rethink my views (I almost voted Bush and probably would have if the election was today). This was when he was more pro conservative than anti liberal. Lately all I have seen from him is the same stuff that the ABB crowd does except aimed at liberals.


I don't think it's anti-liberal so much as it is anti-ABB. I have no problems with Liberals thinking and posting and even sharing air with me. One of my best friends is an yellow-dog democrat.

But ABBers are a different breed. Logic holds no place in their head. They regurgitate the same old debunked talking points and couldn't form a coherent thought on their own.

I have no use for them, or engaging them any further. Hopefully the George Soros kool-aid they have been sipping will kick in next November and they will finally shut the hell up.

I don't think that the true ABBers on here realize that they have lost election after election, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.


Preemptive strike? This is not a preemptive strike, it's just a blatant cheap shot.