The Police Lied

[quote]vroom wrote:
It was a pre-emptive strike. Do you honestly think that bad news won’t get pinned on Bush? It’s pretty much SOP for the ABB crew.

Preemptive strike? This is not a preemptive strike, it’s just a blatant cheap shot.[/quote]

Directed at who, vroom. Explain how one can make a cheap shot when no one’s name is mentioned?

Please quit following me around and making horribly pitiful attempts to draw mw into an e-fight with you.

That is my opinion. Not a “cheap shot”.

But I’m just wasting my time responding to you. Although I don’t think you are an ABBer - I will lump you into the group that is not worth my time to respond to anymore, simply because you have absoulutely nothing to say of any substance. You never have.

It just amazes and disgusts me what hideous things people do and are able to justify it in their minds by calling it “their job” or calling it the “war against terror”. Jesus, at what point will this end?

[quote]lostinthought wrote:
Jesus, at what point will this end? [/quote]

Apparently, long after we start selling out our neighbors and give up all rights to privacy in fear of “terror”.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
lostinthought wrote:
Jesus, at what point will this end?

Apparently, long after we start selling out our neighbors and give up all rights to privacy in fear of “terror”.[/quote]

Maybe when murderers quit flying planes into skyscrapers, and blowing up subways.

However, that is no excuse for gangland style executions.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I’m waiting to see some of the ABB awssholes on here try and twist this to somehow be Bush’s fault.

Everyone knows it’s Bush’s fault.[/quote]

You spelled a-hole wrong.

All bets are off once the tin foil runs out…

[quote]Marmadogg wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I’m waiting to see some of the ABB awssholes on here try and twist this to somehow be Bush’s fault.

Everyone knows it’s Bush’s fault.

You spelled a-hole wrong.[/quote]

No - that’s the British phonetic spelling. I never have typos in my posts.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
vroom wrote:
It was a pre-emptive strike. Do you honestly think that bad news won’t get pinned on Bush? It’s pretty much SOP for the ABB crew.

Preemptive strike? This is not a preemptive strike, it’s just a blatant cheap shot.

Directed at who, vroom. Explain how one can make a cheap shot when no one’s name is mentioned?

Please quit following me around and making horribly pitiful attempts to draw mw into an e-fight with you.

That is my opinion. Not a “cheap shot”.

But I’m just wasting my time responding to you. Although I don’t think you are an ABBer - I will lump you into the group that is not worth my time to respond to anymore, simply because you have absoulutely nothing to say of any substance. You never have.

[/quote]

You don’t even have the mental capacity to see that you are no different then some goat herder in Pakistan or Afghanistan who has been brainwashed by Bin Laden. Your kill, kill, kill, ABBer, ABBer, ABBer, take no prisoners, rhetoric, ideology, and dogma, are the same just a different leader.

You don’t have the ability to think for yourself and if you would have been born in one of the aforementioned countries you would be just as fervent a jihadist as your are a Bushhadist.

Although we don’t know every detail of the whole situation it was a lose lose for law enforcement in this situation. If they don’t make the call to neutralize him and he gets on the subway and blows it up they are gonna get slammed for not doing their job. They made a horrible call and a life was lost, mistakes happen. What I’m saying doesn’t mean I support their actions.

Let me ask a question. How many of you are tasked in your daily life with making a millisecond decision that directly affects the well being of yourself and everyone around you? You can armchair quarterback this one until you’re blue in the face, the fact of the matter is until you place yourself in that officers shoes you have no idea how you would have reacted. Especially after the series of bombings just fresh in their mind.

[quote]Elkhntr1 wrote:
You don’t even have the mental capacity to see that you are no different then some goat herder in Pakistan or Afghanistan who has been brainwashed by Bin Laden. Your kill, kill, kill, ABBer, ABBer, ABBer, take no prisoners, rhetoric, ideology, and dogma, are the same just a different leader.
[/quote]

I agree with this in terms of many Bush-ites. Zeb is a great example as he just showed in this thread…even though no one even mentioned the man. They act like Bush is a religious leader sent by God himself to guide them to the promised land.

[quote]snipeout wrote:
First off, what’s the ITV news? Second off, with as liberally biased as OUR media is (cnn) why haven’t we heard anything about this on our news media or even in the new york slimes? I’m gonna call BS. What you describe sounds like an execution, and what about the hundreds of regular citizens that witnessed this happen in public. This version has more holes than swiss cheese.[/quote]

Here’s CNN carrying the ITV story:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/08/17/police.shooting.0328/index.html

As for the witnesses, we’ve got claims he was Asian or Pakistani, shaved head with a baseball cap, carrying a rucksack or not, and one witness making it sound a lot less like an execution:

“He half-tripped, was half-pushed to the floor. The policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand, he held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him.”

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/07/22/london.eyewitness/index.html

I wish only the Swiss cheese had holes.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Are you justifying this? I am amazed at how soon people forget how long we fought just in this country (and some would argue are still fighting) for this type of thing to stop happening, especially in terms of minorities. Are there terrorists? yes. Does this mean we should start shooting anyone who looks like someone else and then publicly lie about the circumstances? I have no doubt some people are actually dumb enough to applaud this action. [/quote]

Very well said.

Here’s a slightly more detailed account from the Times.

It doesn’t look at all good for the police. But what are you going to do?

My guess is we’ll go back and forth with under-response and over-response as we knee jerk to various events.

It’s probably a classic case of group overreaction…

And it might point to the need to be careful in the wake of terrorist attacks with respect to changing procedures and authorizing lethal force if proper training and communication procedures are not in place.

Let’s be clear, I’m not trying to condemn anyone here. I’m just thinking out loud about what possibly happened and how we may need to consider that when making decisions in the future.

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Let me ask a question. How many of you are tasked in your daily life with making a millisecond decision that directly affects the well being of yourself and everyone around you? [/quote]

Not myself, but very often other patients. Not one person here would hesitate to sue a health professional if they made a mistake that killed someone…so why make excuses for this?

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Although we don’t know every detail of the whole situation it was a lose lose for law enforcement in this situation. If they don’t make the call to neutralize him and he gets on the subway and blows it up they are gonna get slammed for not doing their job. They made a horrible call and a life was lost, mistakes happen. What I’m saying doesn’t mean I support their actions.

Let me ask a question. How many of you are tasked in your daily life with making a millisecond decision that directly affects the well being of yourself and everyone around you? You can armchair quarterback this one until you’re blue in the face, the fact of the matter is until you place yourself in that officers shoes you have no idea how you would have reacted. Especially after the series of bombings just fresh in their mind.[/quote]

What millisecond decision? Supposedly, he left his house at 9:30 and was shot at 10:00 IF they had him under surveillance that whole time, they had .5 hr. to get a positive ID. IF they were only at the station, they spotted him, mistakenly identified him, AND decided that if he ran, they would shoot him (depending on which story you believe). They then tackled him and then shot him.

Additionally, these are the more elite police in London who are equipped with guns, they should be highly trained and capable of making the right split-second decision, if not, they shouldn’t have the job. But, no, you’re right half a dozen bullets in an innocent man’s brainpan, mistakes happen. ce la vie.

Leaked report lists ‘blunders’ as police shot bomb suspect
By Daniel McGrory and Stewart Tendler

SCOTLAND YARD made ?a series of catastrophic errors? that led to armed officers hunting the July 21 bombers shooting dead an innocent Brazilian, it was claimed last night.
Leaked witness statements from officers who took part in the botched operation reveal that Jean Charles de Menezes was restrained by one of Scotland Yard?s surveillance team before being shot eight times as he sat on a Tube train.

Documents and photographs from the Independent Police Complaints Commission investigation also reveal that one of the undercover team meant to be identifying the shot man was relieving himself as Mr de Menezes left his flat on July 22, so could not tell if they had traced Hussain Osman, one of the alleged bombers. It is also suggested that Mr de Menezes could have been taken alive.

Sir Ian Blair, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, will come under pressure to explain how a sophisticated police operation went so badly wrong.

An ITV News investigation claims that when Mr de Menezes, 27, was challenged by police on the Northern Line train at Stockwell he did not make any aggressive move. Police claims at the time that the electrician was ?behaving erratically? are alleged to be false.

The blunders began as Mr de Menezes emerged from his flat in Tulse Hill in South London at 9.30am. The undercover officer who was meant to identify anyone leaving the flats admitted that he had left his post, so could not communicate observations or take video footage.

His advice was, ?It would be worth someone else having a look?, to ensure that they had the right man. No other officer apparently took a picture of him, although Mr de Menezes had to take a bus to the station. Even so, Gold Command at Scotland Yard, which ran this operation, declared a ?code red? and handed responsibility to CO19 ? the firearms team.

This armed team had been given photographs of alleged bombers, yet no one realised that Mr de Menezes bore no resemblance to them. The report states that the firearms unit had been told that ?unusual tactics? might be required and if they ?were deployed to intercept a subject and there was an opportunity to challenge, but if the subject was non-compliant, a critical shot may be taken?.

CCTV footage shows that Mr de Menezes was wearing a thin denim jacket that could not conceal a bomb, and he was not carrying a bag. Far from running from police, he did not realise that anyone was following him and even picked up a free newspaper before using his season ticket to pass through the barrier. He began to run only when he saw his train pull into the station. At the time of the shooting, Scotland Yard said that Mr de Menezes?s ?clothing and his behaviour at the station added to their suspicions?. It was only when Mr de Menezes boarded the train that a surveillance officer guided four armed police into the same carriage.

A man sitting opposite him is quoted as saying: ?Within a few seconds I saw a man coming into the double doors to my left. He was pointing a small, black handgun towards a person sitting opposite me.

?He pointed the gun at the right hand side of the man?s head. The gun was within 12 inches of the man?s head when the first shot was fired.?

The report reveals that one of the surveillance team grabbed Mr de Menezes before he was shot. ?I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side,? a statement says.

?I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting . . . I heard a gunshot very close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor of the carriage.?

Last night Harriet Wistrich, lawyer for the dead man?s family, said that there were still ?far more questions than answers? about police conduct. The family called for a full inquiry.

Rosangela Rebelo, a cousin who lives in the dead man?s home town of Gonzaga, said: ?The family always believed his cousins, who lived with him in London, over the police version of events. I never believed he ran away. The family is still waiting for justice. They killed an innocent man.?

CONTRADICTIONS

Police de Menezes wearing suspicious clothing
Evidence to inquiry Wearing only thin denim jacket
Police Acting suspiciously on way to Stockwell station Evidence to inquiry Nothing odd in his behaviour
Police Challenged at station and refused to obey instructions
Evidence Challenged for first time while seated on train Police de Menezes vaulted ticket barrier to escape
Evidence Did not vault. Ran only to catch train
Police Eight shots fired into him
Evidence Eleven shots fired, three missed

I’ve tended to be fairly neutral on some forms of profiling, but maybe it’s time to rethink it if the “trained professionals” who would be carrying it out can’t even tell the difference between a hispanic and middle eastern guy. It’s not like this is the first time any white folk have ever mistaken the two. I’m surprised no terrorists have attempted to take advantage of this yet. Or maybe they already have…

KevinKovach:

Just talking to my pal…it’s a message board…you can do that.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
I have a down jacket that I bought years ago. Everytime I wear it, people ask “aren’t you too warm?”, and every time I explain how it’s an old jacket, it has lost almost all the down, and now, although it looks “bulky” is little more than a windbreaker. Ever since I heard this story, whenever it’s a little brisk, and I put on my old jacket, I thank God I live in Canada, where I (for the time being) won’t get tackled and executed for looking suspicious.[/quote]

Don’t you guys share the same Queen?

I would ditch the jacket.