The Media and Palin's Gender Card

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
42

[quote]pushharder wrote:
malonetd wrote:
pushharder wrote:
This really isn’t the thread to do this, I guess, but put all the emotions aside and strictly and logically argue/debate the (sarcastic) scenario I mentioned above. It will be tough, I surmise.

The problem with discussing abortion is that it is so deeply rooted in beliefs and there’s not a lot of logic involved with what people believe.

I can do it. Or I think I can. Non-emotionally. Logically.

Start out with one (1) hour. One hour before birth? Should a woman be able to choose to terminate her pregnancy or in other words, terminate the life that is inside her and is moments from being born?

If yes, then why not one hour after birth?

Next scenario, two days. Two days before birth? If yes, why not two days after birth?

Next, two months. Two months before birth? Why not two months after birth?

Next, Down’s Syndrome child. Three months before birth? How 'bout three months after. What the heck is the real difference?

Next, “but the child will not be able to be properly cared for. We don’t have the money.” Before? After?

You tell me. Non-emotionally and logically tell me. I just did it. Your turn.

(Malone, I’m not individually addressing you)

[/quote]

Non-emotionally and logically, I’ll say that once any part of is outside the vagina, it can no longer be aborted. It’s like the NFL, all it needs to do is cross the plane.

I realize by saying this, many people, including a lot of pro-choice people, will call me cold. But I feel like I’ve drawn a hard line that is not based on the debate of what constitutes a human life.

44

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Non-emotionally and logically, I’ll say that once any part of is outside the vagina, it can no longer be aborted. It’s like the NFL, all it needs to do is cross the plane.

I realize by saying this, many people, including a lot of pro-choice people, will call me cold. But I feel like I’ve drawn a hard line that is not based on the debate of what constitutes a human life.

Then the birth canal is literally a gauntlet. Survive your stay in the womb and birth canal by whatever means, youngster, and your home free!

So again, Malone (or others) what is sooooo magical/sacred/legalistic about that “plane” that transforms just another piece of the mother’s tissue and subject completely to her whims/feelings/beliefs TO the most treasured, precious, adorable, protected object in the universe? [/quote]

There’s nothing magical about it. It’s just where I draw the line. It’s just a concrete, easily identified point. Others who are pro-choice might prefer the Roe v Wade definition and suggest the point of viability (or however it’s worded), but that’s far too ambiguous and leaves room for too much debate.

46

[quote]pushharder wrote:
malonetd wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Non-emotionally and logically, I’ll say that once any part of is outside the vagina, it can no longer be aborted. It’s like the NFL, all it needs to do is cross the plane.

I realize by saying this, many people, including a lot of pro-choice people, will call me cold. But I feel like I’ve drawn a hard line that is not based on the debate of what constitutes a human life.

Then the birth canal is literally a gauntlet. Survive your stay in the womb and birth canal by whatever means, youngster, and your home free!

So again, Malone (or others) what is sooooo magical/sacred/legalistic about that “plane” that transforms just another piece of the mother’s tissue and subject completely to her whims/feelings/beliefs TO the most treasured, precious, adorable, protected object in the universe?

There’s nothing magical about it. It’s just where I draw the line.

But WHY? You have to have a reason that defines your logic or better yet logic that defines your reason. It can’t, for the sake of argument, be arbitrary.[/quote]
Because escaping the vagina is birth. Once it’s coming out, it’s no longer “unborn” and no longer aborting a pregnancy.

I don’t really disagree with you here. I was just trying to point out the absurdness of that decision. I don’t like ambiguity. I know everything can’t be black or white, but when it CAN be, it should.

47

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Abortion is never a minor issue in any election, especially for a wingnut like Palin who will make it an issue.

I agree your post. [/quote]

Why are you so sure? seems your left-wing buddies are the ones trying to make an issue of it.

Did Palin mention abortion in her acceptance speech? I don’t think she did.

Has she mentioned it in her stump speeches? I haven’t heard them all, but I haven’t heard abortion mentioned in those I have heard.

The pro-abortion crowd is livid that she is pro-life, and has proven it - not with words - but just by living her life by HER principles. Why does that enrage those who enjoy a good baby-killing?

48

[quote]malonetd wrote:

Because escaping the vagina is birth. Once it’s coming out, it’s no longer “unborn” and no longer aborting a pregnancy.
[/quote]

WHat about a C-section? Is it okay to knock the survivor of a C-Section in the head like clubbing a baby seal? There was no vaginal contact.

And I forgot the bet this year. Do you remember what it was?

49

I wonder what PETA would say if we started killing the babies of animals in the womb due to over population?

50

Bristol Palin’s Choice

51

[quote]rainjack wrote:
malonetd wrote:

Because escaping the vagina is birth. Once it’s coming out, it’s no longer “unborn” and no longer aborting a pregnancy.

WHat about a C-section? Is it okay to knock the survivor of a C-Section in the head like clubbing a baby seal? There was no vaginal contact.

And I forgot the bet this year. Do you remember what it was? [/quote]

Well, if it’s a C-section, then, I would assume the mother decided to have the baby. My point is, if abortion is going to be legal, it needs to be legal at any point during the pregnancy.

The majority of the pro-choice people fail in their argument when they try put deadlines during the pregnancy. That opens up the debate to viability and magical numbers of when a fetus suddenly becomes a human life. It turns into Push’s scenario above.

I feel that if decision to abort is allowed up until birthing, caesarean or vaginal, it is creating the most black and white, indisputable line available. As far as pro-lifers, it shouldn’t matter. It’s all baby-killing anyway, whether it’s nine weeks or nine months. So, what’s the difference, right?

As far as the bet, I’d have to look it up and I don’t even remember what thread it started in. I do know that I said if I lost, I would do a set of 20 rep squats in a thong.

I also know it started out with you claiming the 'Boys would win the Superbowl. I don’t know if it stayed there and I really don’t think it should. That’s not a fair bet to you.

52

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
Not supporting a woman’s right to choose is kind of a sticking point for most feminists <_<

Otherwise… Stewart has pwnt. Don’t care what anyone says, that was fucking hilarious.[/quote]

Feminists don’t support a right to choose. They support abortion.

If like Palin’s daughter you choose not to have an abortion you, your family will be mocked and villified by feminists and their fellow traveller’s. If you really do something crazy like marry the father the contempt heaped upon you by the left will be even greater.

Feminists hate Palin because she is not liberal. If she had the same background and profile and was liberal she would be praised. Transparent to anyone who bothers to put some thought into it.

54

[quote]pushharder wrote:
malonetd wrote:
rainjack wrote:
malonetd wrote:

Because escaping the vagina is birth. Once it’s coming out, it’s no longer “unborn” and no longer aborting a pregnancy.

WHat about a C-section? Is it okay to knock the survivor of a C-Section in the head like clubbing a baby seal? There was no vaginal contact.

And I forgot the bet this year. Do you remember what it was?

Well, if it’s a C-section, then, I would assume the mother decided to have the baby. My point is, if abortion is going to be legal, it needs to be legal at any point during the pregnancy.

The majority of the pro-choice people fail in their argument when they try put deadlines during the pregnancy. That opens up the debate to viability and magical numbers of when a fetus suddenly becomes a human life. It turns into Push’s scenario above.

I feel that if decision to abort is allowed up until birthing, caesarean or vaginal, it is creating the most black and white, indisputable line available. As far as pro-lifers, it shouldn’t matter. It’s all baby-killing anyway, whether it’s nine weeks or nine months. So, what’s the difference, right?..

I don’t think you realize how seriously you have painted yourself into a corner?[/quote]

Apparently not. Feel free to elaborate.

56

Why can a married woman, who is impregnated by her husband, go have an abortion without the fathers knowledge?

Yes, this happens all the time. Unless you already HAVE children of your own, most young people have a slant to support abortion.

Once you realize that this child you love and have is here because life was chosen. I can’t imagine abortion anymore.

I once supported it, while I was in college getting communized…but as we grow older and have to pay bills and take care of a family, you realize the liberal way is anti family and anti the way I want to bring up my family.

57

[quote]pushharder wrote:
By taking your stance you have agreed to the hypothetical situation where 10 minutes before birth a psychologically unstable woman says, “I don’t want the baby. Abort.”

The loving, receptive hands of the nurse/midwife/doctor then legally change into the cold, murdering hands of a ghoulish monster and a perfect little human life is tossed into a waste receptacle instead of a warm, clean crib.

Go ahead and “logically” reconcile that.[/quote]

I’m sorry, I don’t really see the difference between ten minutes before birth and ten minutes before the second trimester. Isn’t it still a human life being killed?

I’ll assume that you’re just 10 minutes prior to delivery to set up the sudden change in professional duties.

First, the obstetrician preparing for delivery might not be one that performs abortions. If the pregnant woman can’t put herself in the hands of a competent doctor to willing to perform an abortion, that’s her fault. Yes, she has the right to choose, but she fucked up that right. A woman can also scream about her right to choose and demand an abortion while sitting on her couch. If she doesn’t put herself in the position to get one, she fucked up.

It’s as if I went to get oil change for my car and, while the mechanic was getting ready to drain my oil, I decided I wanted my crankcase ripped off instead of an oil change. The mechanic may or may not do it. If he doesn’t, it’s my fault for going to a facility for one service and demanding another.

Next, you’re getting awfully close to bringing emotion and beliefs into this when you describe hands as loving, receptive and cold and murdering. You’re also bringing the “human life” debate into this. By keeping everything in terms of born and unborn, the debate over human life is irrelevant.

This may seem cold to some, but that’s the only way to keep it completely logical and free from emotion and belief. If abortion is to be allowed, it has to be allowed all the way. Keep everything defined in absolutes. There is no “sort of pregnant”.

59

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Ironically, I understand and agree with much of your post. But you are making my point for me.

BTW, you ever witnessed a child being born?[/quote]

For the record, I am pro choice, but I feel there is no compromise in something like this. I basically agree with the pro-lifers that there is no magical date or stage of development that the fetus suddenly becomes a human life worthy of protection and rights. So, in my mind, if abortion is legal, the only logical thing is to make it all or nothing.

That being said, abortion isn’t one of MY hot topics. I wouldn’t bat an eye if Roe v. Wade was overturned, provided it was left up to the states.

I have a son who turns 11 in three days. He’s a complete Star Wars nerd. He was a c-section. You can’t really tell except when he leaves the house, he goes out the window. (Thank you Stephen Wright.) Seriously, I was in the room for his birth., on the other side of the curtain. So, I guess I haven’t “seen” a child being born, but I witnessed it.

(I have seen videos of childbirth, but I assumed you meant live.)

60

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I can do it. Or I think I can. Non-emotionally. Logically.

Start out with one (1) hour. One hour before birth? Should a woman be able to choose to terminate her pregnancy or in other words, terminate the life that is inside her and is moments from being born?

If yes, then why not one hour after birth?

Next scenario, two days. Two days before birth? If yes, why not two days after birth?

Next, two months. Two months before birth? Why not two months after birth?

Next, Down’s Syndrome child. Three months before birth? How 'bout three months after? What the heck is the real difference?

Next, “but the child will not be able to be properly cared for. We don’t have the money.” Before? After?

Honestly, what is it about the actual passage by a baby down the birth canal that transforms him/her from a piece of tissue that belongs entirely to the mother and whose existence is subject entirely to her whims TO the most treasured, precious, adorable, protected object in the universe?

You tell me. Non-emotionally and logically tell me. I just did it. Your turn.

(Malone, I’m not individually addressing you)

[/quote]

I think that once the baby is viable they should try and deliver it alive. There are plenty of people out there that would adopt a baby even one deliverd prematurely. If the mother wants it out, why not let it live if it is able and somebody wants it? The mother is still rid of baby. There is a video of a baby being aborted late term on youtube. Watch that and tell me it’s ok to pull apart a baby that squirming and struggling as soon as the procedure is started. I am not religious in any way but I still can’t imagine how anyone can be pro late term abortion.