Am I the only Hardgainer out there, or are there many of us? I think maybe so. Reading the reports of so and so gaining so many lbs in so many days or weeks is all very well. In 2 years of training, I have sampled just about everything, except I will admit, the Biotest Products. I did try 4 bottles of ZMA and nothing. I have injected Deca dropped Stromba, tried every diet I can think of, and virtually nothing. I would be interested to hear of the opinions of others on this matter. Perhaps one of the specialists would care to comment on the genetic differences which make one person more receptive to training and supplementation than others. Ta, in advance. John.
I’m not sure what the criteria are to be considered a “hardgainer.” How many months should one wait for muscle results before resigning to the fact that we or aren’t one? Remember, though, that 60-90% of all people would be considered “hardgainers.”
I happen to be 6’5", which means my limbs and muscles are very long. For me to add an inch of bicep circumference would be MUCH harder than a 5’6" guy with short arms. And longer limbs mean that our squats and benches will be tougher for us.
But I've been eating restricted calories since March to lose fat, and it's working well: 30 pounds so far! So I simply could not expect to gain muscle at this point, even though it's been 8 months. After I get my fat to 8-10%, I'll start adding in more calories to fuel muscle growth and see what happens. The only exception to this was with Androsol, which gained me four pounds even though my fat percentage dropped from 16% to 14%.
John, I have been lifting for 20 years. I made some gains
early on, reaching a body weight of about 200 lbs at 6’1".
However, the next 15 years, I was simply going through the
motions making little to no gains. Then 2 years ago I
stumbled onto High Intensity Training. Now, please don’t
close your mind just because of what you’ve heard
regarding Mike Mentzer. He does come across rather
strong. After training HIT style for almost 2 years, I have
added at least 20 lbs of muscle. I don’t want to go into the
theory of HIT here. Please research it for yourself. I hate to
mention other web sites here, but since I can’t e-mail you
directly I will. Start out with Stuart McRoberts online book at
www.hardgainer.com. His paper book Beyond Brawn is a
must have if you need more info. The best HIT site on the
web is www.cyberpump.com. There is loads of info there
but start out with the HIT FAQ. They also list some
impressive athletes which train HIT style. Dorian Yates is
die-hard Hitter. www.mikementzer.com is also worth a look.
Stuart McRobert says that most hardgainers, after trainer
HIT style, have to be re-categorized as average or even
above average gainers so you not be a hardgainer after all.
I do not know many people who after seeing me would call
me a hardgainer now. I’d bet money that you make gains
beyond expectations if you commit to HIT. Good Luck to
you.
John, how much Deca and Winstrol did you use?
A serious question, because I’ve seen guys who have used
pitiful doses of steroids and then gotten nothing, and
concluded “steroids don’t work for me.”
If you use 400 mg/week Deca plus 50 mg/day Winstrol
Depot, increase your protein to 2.5 grams per lb per day,
eat every 2 hours or 2.5 hours at worst (except when
asleep, and even then, ought to have a protein shake ready
for when you wake up lightly at 3 or 4 AM assuming you do),
have calories at least 800 per day above your maintenance
also getting plenty of carbs, train right, sleep right, and don’t
have bad stress problems at the time… if you do all this, I
personally guarantee you that you will make a lot of gains
quickly.
Not that it takes the drugs to make gains: if you get
everything right you can definitely gain at least 20 lb of
muscle relative to your starting point given a few years of
consistent work.
First realize, that while ZMA is a good product and can
boost performance, it is not a mass builder per se. As for
being a hardgainer. I was once 6’3" 140. Frankly, I don’t
believe there is such a thing. IMO, calorie manipulation and
intelligent training will result in growth. The best advice I can
give is keep a nutrtion log for a week or two. If your eating
enough, then examine your training. If your training correctly,
then take a look at the suplements. However, just because
you have “tried everything” doesn’t mean you can’t grow.
Increase your calories and try some GVT (old or new) and
you’ll probably see some results. Also, there were some
Dawg School articles that I beleive addressed this quite
well.
If you’re struggling to gain mass overall, the problem is most
likely nutrition. Up protein and carbs post-workout (for 4-5
hours). I eat most of my daily caloric intake during this time
and it works best for me. So maybe try it. (It’s kinda warrior
diet. I eat a bit of protein during the day too. But just as long
as you really eat postworkout…)
first of all, have you had a full blood profile - liver, thyroid,
androgrens, immune counts, etc… second, do you train
correctly? third, have you at least become stronger, even
though your physique hasn’t changed?
May I also contribute inquiries to this thread as well? I do train correctly, with precise and hinest attention to form and progress. I train 2:1 on:off days, for one hard hour. I eat a lot of protein and high-GI carbs immediately after, and then continue with high doses of protein each hour after lifting, and totallying 250 g/day (I weigh 230). I drink lots of water, and eat wisely with flax oil, vitamin E, and healthy carbs included.
The problem is that I’ve been taking a fat-loss approach which has worked for eight months, but I have no idea where my muscle development should be in this. Since I’m eating 500-700 calories below maintenance, should I even expect any muscle development at all, other than strength?
I’d like to suggest a feature for T-mag that would be extremely helpful to us in the future. See, we all know what success stories look like (they’re on magazine coveres everywhere). But what about us guys who are still in progresS? Nobody ever shows us what our level of progess should look like. At 6’5", 230 lbs, age 29, where should I be in my development? T-mag could do an article with simple charts that correlate height, bodyfat, and duration of training with the approximate size that each body part should be. I know what my biceps measure, but I have no idea if it’s average, spectacular, or poor.
So for us hardgainers, it would be helpful if we had some progressive standards by which we could measure up.
John, I have been lifting for 20 years. I made some gains
early on, reaching a body weight of about 200 lbs at 6’1".
However, the next 15 years, I was simply going through the
motions making little to no gains. Then 2 years ago I
stumbled onto High Intensity Training. Now, please don’t
close your mind just because of what you’ve heard
regarding Mike Mentzer. He does come across rather
strong. After training HIT style for almost 2 years, I have
added at least 20 lbs of muscle. I don’t want to go into the
theory of HIT here. Please research it for yourself. I hate to
mention other web sites here, but since I can’t e-mail you
directly I will. Start out with Stuart McRoberts online book. His paper book Beyond Brawn is a
must have if you need more info. The best HIT site on the
web is (Moderator’s note: please don’t put URL’s in your posts. Instead say something like, “the cyberpump site.” Thank you.) There is loads of info there
John, how much Deca and Winstrol did you use?
A serious question, because I’ve seen guys who have used
pitiful doses of steroids and then gotten nothing, and
concluded “steroids don’t work for me.”
If you use 400 mg/week Deca plus 50 mg/day Winstrol
Depot, increase your protein to 2.5 grams per lb per day,
eat every 2 hours or 2.5 hours at worst (except when
asleep, and even then, ought to have a protein shake ready
for when you wake up lightly at 3 or 4 AM assuming you do),
have calories at least 800 per day above your maintenance
also getting plenty of carbs, train right, sleep right, and don’t
have bad stress problems at the time… if you do all this, I
personally guarantee you that you will make a lot of gains
quickly.
Not that it takes the drugs to make gains: if you get
everything right you can definitely gain at least 20 lb of
muscle relative to your starting point given a few years of
consistent work.
First realize, that while ZMA is a good product and can
boost performance, it is not a mass builder per se. As for
being a hardgainer. I was once 6’3" 140. Frankly, I don’t
believe there is such a thing. IMO, calorie manipulation and
intelligent training will result in growth. The best advice I can
give is keep a nutrtion log for a week or two. If your eating
enough, then examine your training. If your training correctly,
then take a look at the suplements. However, just because
you have “tried everything” doesn’t mean you can’t grow.
Increase your calories and try some GVT (old or new) and
you’ll probably see some results. Also, there were some
Dawg School articles that I beleive addressed this quite
well.
If you’re struggling to gain mass overall, the problem is most
likely nutrition. Up protein and carbs post-workout (for 4-5
hours). I eat most of my daily caloric intake during this time
and it works best for me. So maybe try it. (It’s kinda warrior
diet. I eat a bit of protein during the day too. But just as long
as you really eat postworkout…)
first of all, have you had a full blood profile - liver, thyroid,
androgrens, immune counts, etc… second, do you train
correctly? third, have you at least become stronger, even
though your physique hasn’t changed?
Hi Guys. Taking the comments one at a time. Diet is sound, clean, never ever any junk. I attemt to build at 33/33/33 at 2600cals. I weigh 164 at 15%, but do not look in any way fat. In fact I look no different in body shape than my son at 8%. I am 6foot tall. Any increase in calories always, always, wlways results in 100% fat gain. Always. Two years ago I dieted down to 154 at 13% and it has taken the two years to make the 10lbs. If you do the sums, that equates to 5lbs muscle and 5 lbs fat. If I were to try to drop the fat, even on a low0carb diet , I will lose 1 or 2 lbs of that hard earned lean mass. Result - virtually nothing. I am well aware of Stuart McRoberts and his safe training styles. I do work safely as I would be prone to injury if not careful. Regarding the juice. I followed the “Steroids for Health” cycle proposed by Nelson Montana. I did 200/week and 20 Winstrol. I gained 14 lbs in 2 weeks and maintained it to the end of the 5 week course. Within a few weeks I had pissed it all away, that is except about 2 lbs of fat, all around my waist. I am not contending that gains are impossible, only very very difficult for some of us. Any further comment lads. Best regards to you all. John
This will probably sound dick, but I agree that there are no true hardgainers. Some have light bone, are tall, have low levels of various hormones, but all that can be overcome.
I was 6'1 136 lbs in Jan 99, and am now 210 lbs(fatter, though) and fall into two of the "not so genetically gifted category";long arms and legs and a light bone structure(wrists are 6.25 inches).
Now, my big change happened after a modified high intensity routine, switched with volume for those “worn down” periods. When I say “HIT”, I mean that I have deadlifted so hard that I passed out, threw up, and had a blood stain in my underwear. But not Mentzer HIT style, more Yates style. (more exercises per body part, you are allowed to do more than one set without going to hell to pay for your sins)
Anyways, were there is a will, there is a way. But most people do not want to go too far and shouldn't. To gain mass, only lift, no other activity. Commit for several weeks and GAIN SOME FAT TOO. So many people are afraid of being chubby for a short time. Also, go to extemes. If getting big is that important to you(as it was for me), then don't have a life other than lifting for bulking phases. Leave the house as infrequently as possible, get lots of rest, (this will sound gay) and avoid chicks for the bulking periods. Leave the social life behind for two months of pure lifting, and see what happens. Like I said, this way really isn't for everyone. Many people would rather be more well rounded.
Oh yeah, deadlift too.
John, I consider myself a hardgainer too. At 5’4" and currently 142lbs at about 11% bodyfat, I can’t expect to be a big guy. But I’ve managed to put on some muscle, and even though I don’t have 15-inch arms, I still have well-shaped, rock-hard muscle.
And even though I always think I'm small, many say that I'm in good shape and am actually pretty big for my height. And don't think that because I'm short it makes it easier for me to gain muscle. That is not true! I have an ectomorphic body shape. I am also not gifted with long muscle bellies and short tendons.
Of course, I’ll never be totally satisfied and will always try to get bigger and stronger. At one point I was up to almost 160lbs. This was when I was eating A LOT. And I also trained very hard doing a Mon, Wed, Fri routine based on one of Stuart McRoberts programs. I basically did the 5x5 method on the basic exercises. And it worked well! I gained 15-20lbs and my strength went up. Most of my mass was in my legs and ass. But I sure didn’t mind having huge legs on my little body!
I remember people commenting on how large my legs had gotten. But after awhile I smoothed out too much and decided to lose some fat. So I went down to about 140-145lb. Of course, I did lose strength during that time, but I was also training differently. Then I decided to do Olympic lifting. My back and leg strength went back up, but I also ended up losing size as I competed at 59kg and recently 62kg.
Now I’m using King and Poliquin’s techniques. I’m about to use the 1-6 Program to increase strength. As I’ve found that I respond better to strength programs (even though I have more of a slow-twitch makeup) rather than hypertrophy.
And I've learned that many of the things I've done in the past were wrong. With t-mag, Poliquin, King and Staley's advice, I have learned so much within the past year.
I’ve tried different supplements throughout the years including weight gainers, creatine, protein powders, HMB (one bottle was enough to tell me it was a waste of money), MRP’s and multi-vitamins.
I’ve been most pleased with Biotest’s products. I currently use ZMA and Grow. And will be trying Tribex in the near future. But you can’t expect ZMA to make a profound difference in your training. It you are severly deficient, you will notice it. Otherwise, you may notice that you sleep better.
As for measurements for how big certain body parts should be, there is no way that can be done. There is no standard of measurement. Everyone is different. And you have to go by how you look and feel. You can’t compare yourself to someone else who has different genetics. I’ve done this…and it only leads to frusturation!
So my advice is to make sure you eat enough, train correctly, use the right supplements and make sure you stay healthy!!!! With all the advice on T-mag, you should definitely find a way to make gains!
One more thing. To me it seems like you aren’t getting enough calories and enough protein. So you may want to adjust that.
Hey John,
I’m replying because I empathize with you.
I was a very hardgainer, and even at 30 now I still find it difficult to gain weight, but I did finally start to grow. Now I am a certified Personal Trainer.
I also tried anabolics (Sustanon) but I was not happy with the results (bloated, not muscular). My advice to you is this:
-absolutely stay away from steroids as they reduce your body’s natural anabolic hormone production! You may have already reduced your efficiency to grow.
-take supplements to improve your natural production (Tribulus, and others, and even though you didn’t notice anything, I’d still take zinc and magnesium at night, as well as some glutamine… it is anticatabolic and raises GH).]
-eat ALOT! There’s no magic here, mate. To grow you must feed the machine! Especially if you are a hardgainer like I was. I had to eat 6-7 meals daily, with adequate protein (1 gram / pound bodyweight) and lots of carbs. I was eating rice, tuna, chicken, vegies, etc… but also pizza, burgers, ice cream, etc! You need calories! If you are afraid of a tiny bit extra fat, it will take forever to gain… Bulk it!
-eat a big meal as soon as you can after your workout… do not wait!
-It’s smart to take a protein or meal shake while trying to eat this much.
-Look at your training regimine: are you training correctly for a hardgainer? This is important: you don’t want to workout for more than 1 hour at a time, and no more than 4 days/week; you need recovery time. Stick to only basic, compound exercises (bench, squat, military press, deadlift, row, etc.) and forget isolation movements, calves or forearms… don’t need 'em.
-Keep training short, heavy, intense, then go feed your face after and rest.
-Are you sleeping AT LEAST 8 hours nightly? This is when we grow, and it is VERY important.
-If you drink alcohol, you are lowering your testosterone, slowing protein synthesis, and reducing your strength potential… don’t drink: it will make you small and weak.
** I know alot of this you already know, but you have to ask yourself are you really doing everything you can to be in an anabolic environment? Eat, train, rest, supplements.
Are you truly eating enough of the right foods CONSISTENTLY? This is a full time job, to grow.
Are you taking the right supplements that will promote growth without sabotaging your natural homeostasis?
Are you sleeping enough?
Is your training intense enough, and spaced correctly to allow recovery? Is it progressive and periodized? Are the exercises right for you?
I went from 160 lbs to over 230 by considering these factors. (Naturally). I now rest at about 210, lean. It was damn hard, but now I know how to make my body grow.
Get serious, evaluate your program, make some changes, make a commitment, and pig out!
See you on the Big Side.
Josh
Well, I will admit that I do’nt want to get fat, therefore I don’t eat to excess. My mate does eat to excess, but he looks like shit. At 220lbs, he is 40% fat at age 22. He is covered in stretch marks. He can’t run, he can’t squat anymore. But he is determined to get huge. Now if you do the sums again, he actually has less lean mass than me (132 him, 140 me)although he is twice as strong. There is obviously a relationship beyween total mass and strength and not muscle mass and strength. Am I right here. Some of us ( well me) want to be muscular, not huge. We want to be healthy, live long and of course pull the chicks on a consistent basis (thus no stretch marks). Getting 40% fat is not the way to do this. Over to you all. John
John, a little comment on your long-term-unsuccessful steroid cycle as recommended by Nelson Montana.
Sounds like you got great results in 2 weeks:
not a hard gainer at all. But then, this
cycle (which completely flies in the face
of various points I’ve made about steroid
cycling) gave you no further gains through
to the 5 week point. Then, after stopping,
you lost your gains. It is very unlikely that
this is because your body could not hold these
gains with only your natural testosterone production: rather, your natural T probably dropped badly for a while.
So what was the point of going 5 weeks here when nothing further was gained compared to 2 weeks? Only that you put your system into much deeper inhibition and had a much harder time
recovering.
Deca, contrary to what the steroid books say (anyone can write a steroid book, you know!) is quite inhibitory and is not a good choice as the last steroid to have used when ending a cycle. Your results are pretty much as I would have predicted.
You have the proven potential to make good gains, but that cycle was not the way to do them and to keep them.