Questions about Pistol Shooting

Bigger Stronger Leaner
1

Hello friends,

I have a question for those of you experienced with pistol shooting.
I’ve been working on my form and I squeeze the trigger, but I notice my shot placement is still slightly to the left. Now something I was wondering was whether it matters how firmly you’re holding the pistol when you shoot.

My thinking is that when you pull the trigger, the bullet will go where it’s aimed and it doesn’t matter how strongly or firmly you are holding the pistol. The only thing holding the pistol strongly/firmly does is minimize the effects of recoil and getting back on target.

Is this correct? Thanks

2

The simplest thing to do is get some good training, it can be worth its weight in gold. You will not regret it. I can’t stress it enough. We pick up a lot of bad habits when it comes to shooting. They will be hard to break without help and determination.

3


Check out this card. If it doesn’t come through very clear, google ‘armor caswell shooting card’ and look at images. It is a handy little reference for what your shot placement means, regardless of skill level.

4

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Hello friends,

I have a question for those of you experienced with pistol shooting.
I’ve been working on my form and I squeeze the trigger, but I notice my shot placement is still slightly to the left. Now something I was wondering was whether it matters how firmly you’re holding the pistol when you shoot.

My thinking is that when you pull the trigger, the bullet will go where it’s aimed and it doesn’t matter how strongly or firmly you are holding the pistol. The only thing holding the pistol strongly/firmly does is minimize the effects of recoil and getting back on target.

Is this correct? Thanks[/quote]

Are you shooting right or left handed?

5

A. You never PULL the trigger. It is always take a deep breath, let it half out, cut it off at the throat, etc etc etc and lastly BEGAIN to press the trigger. The shot going off should ALWAYS be a surprise to you. You will be amazed at how many times you will see game fall if you do it right. Lady friend handed me her scoped rifle and asked me to sight it in, as it had not been fired for years. Three beer cans, three shots and each had a hole in it. Sights were dead on.

That year 13 red squirrels, which she hates as one got in her summer home, died. 13 shells used, zero misses. Just do it right, it helps to be a veteran.

6

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Hello friends,

I have a question for those of you experienced with pistol shooting.
I’ve been working on my form and I squeeze the trigger, but I notice my shot placement is still slightly to the left. Now something I was wondering was whether it matters how firmly you’re holding the pistol when you shoot.

My thinking is that when you pull the trigger, the bullet will go where it’s aimed and it doesn’t matter how strongly or firmly you are holding the pistol. The only thing holding the pistol strongly/firmly does is minimize the effects of recoil and getting back on target.

Is this correct? Thanks[/quote]

Blaze,

What kind of shooting are you doing with the pistol? This really does matter.

Also, left or right handed?

Single handed or “freestyle”(two hands on gun)?

Hand size and weapon type also matter.

What was the distance and target size? Also number or rounds fired per target and group size.

Two things really need to happen.

1.)The barrel has to be oriented such that the bullets path intersects what we want a hole in. This usually is written as SIGHT PICTURE.

2.)The trigger has to be moved such that the alignment of the barrel isn’t meaningfully disturbed. This usually gets written PRESS the trigger straight to the rear.

You may note that 2 is just a way of not fucking up 1.

Your theory is sound, but in practice the degree of firmness you hold, and the exact way you make pressure (including how each digit works) can matter in what the trigger press does to the sights.

A lot of folks experience “down and away” with a trigger press.

The target posted above is geared towards right handed target shooters who only use one hand. If you shoot freestyle it may not work as well.

There are trigger control drills that can be done.

Dry fire is valuable.

Answers to the questions will help.

Regards,

Robert A

7

[quote]philipj wrote:
A. You never PULL the trigger. It is always take a deep breath, let it half out, cut it off at the throat, etc etc etc and lastly BEGAIN to press the trigger. The shot going off should ALWAYS be a surprise to you. You will be amazed at how many times you will see game fall if you do it right. Lady friend handed me her scoped rifle and asked me to sight it in, as it had not been fired for years. Three beer cans, three shots and each had a hole in it. Sights were dead on.

That year 13 red squirrels, which she hates as one got in her summer home, died. 13 shells used, zero misses. Just do it right, it helps to be a veteran.[/quote]

Did you even fucking read what I wrote? One of the first things I write is that I squeeze the trigger, not pull. If you want to break an arm jerking yourself off, go do it in GaL.

8

[quote]Robert A wrote:

What kind of shooting are you doing with the pistol? This really does matter.

Also, left or right handed?

Single handed or “freestyle”(two hands on gun)?

Hand size and weapon type also matter.

What was the distance and target size? Also number or rounds fired per target and group size.

Two things really need to happen.

1.)The barrel has to be oriented such that the bullets path intersects what we want a hole in. This usually is written as SIGHT PICTURE.

2.)The trigger has to be moved such that the alignment of the barrel isn’t meaningfully disturbed. This usually gets written PRESS the trigger straight to the rear.

You may note that 2 is just a way of not fucking up 1.

Your theory is sound, but in practice the degree of firmness you hold, and the exact way you make pressure (including how each digit works) can matter in what the trigger press does to the sights.

A lot of folks experience “down and away” with a trigger press.

The target posted above is geared towards right handed target shooters who only use one hand. If you shoot freestyle it may not work as well.

There are trigger control drills that can be done.

Dry fire is valuable.

Answers to the questions will help.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Right handed free style. Paper targets, up to 25 meters away. I try to pull the trigger in such a manner that I am surprised when the pistol fires.
I think I may be slightly aiming to the left and not fully lining up the sights with the target. I’m not sure.

Should I practice one handed firing a well? For both dominant and weak hands?

9

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]philipj wrote:
A. You never PULL the trigger. It is always take a deep breath, let it half out, cut it off at the throat, etc etc etc and lastly BEGAIN to press the trigger. The shot going off should ALWAYS be a surprise to you. You will be amazed at how many times you will see game fall if you do it right. Lady friend handed me her scoped rifle and asked me to sight it in, as it had not been fired for years. Three beer cans, three shots and each had a hole in it. Sights were dead on.

That year 13 red squirrels, which she hates as one got in her summer home, died. 13 shells used, zero misses. Just do it right, it helps to be a veteran.[/quote]

Did you even fucking read what I wrote? One of the first things I write is that I squeeze the trigger, not pull. If you want to break an arm jerking yourself off, go do it in GaL.[/quote]

I don’t know if you two have history or not.

For what it is worth nothing phillipj wrote reads like an attack to me.

For some folks the “press” wording is gold, for others “squeeze” is good.

Me, I pull shit towards me and I press shit away from me. So I guess I actually pull triggers. If I do my part the trigger movement doesn’t disturb my aim. Other times I snatch at that damn bangswitch like I was Gollum and it was my falling Precious.

Surprise break is classic marksmanship. Compressed surprise is the “practical”/“Modern Technique”-Jeff Cooper nomenclature for not anticipating, but making the weapon fire NOW.

Trigger weight, type, quality, ect. all change a way triggers “feel” and damn sure make subjective differences. Even if we can all agree what we are actually trying to do.

The weight of the firearm also matters. A light trigger with a heavier gun is going to be more forgiving of accidently putting a little side or down on the “straight to the rear” motion than something like a J-frame where the trigger is 12-14 pounds and the gun weighs 1 pound. Don’t know what those are in Canadian.

Some triggers, like the trigger on a 1911 style pistol, cam straight back and sort of “teach” straight to the rear. This helps a lot. Most triggers hinge at the top and are levers. The longer these are the more they seem to invite a little off line pressure. Heavier exacerbates tendencies. Lighter hides them.

Regards,

Robert A

10

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
Right handed free style. Paper targets, up to 25 meters away. I try to pull the trigger in such a manner that I am surprised when the pistol fires.
I think I may be slightly aiming to the left and not fully lining up the sights with the target. I’m not sure.

Should I practice one handed firing a well? For both dominant and weak hands?
[/quote]

OK.

1.) 25M is a damn long distance for most folks with a “one hand gun”, even when using two hands. At most commercial ranges people tend to shoot patterns, not groups, at 25 yards so if you are doing well enough to worry about “a little left” you are doing ok. At that range I am happy to make “on demand” hits to a 10 inch circle or a standard paper. I doubt I could truly do it “on demand” right now.(see other thread)

2.) Depending on how many shots you fire on target and what your group size is it can be tough to see the center of your group. I know that if I am looking at 5 shots in an 8 inch group than left or right is hard to see. Sometimes shooting closer gives a better picture. If you shoot a small group that looks “on” at 5M, a palm sized group that could be left at 10M, and a hand sized group that is left at 15M that is obvious. At 70 yards I am “on torso”, but that is all. Left, right, up, down, I can’t really tell you.

3.) Sight picture matters at 25M. Also different people have different “likes” for sights. Too thick a front post, or too loose or tight a sight picture (light bars on either side of the front sight) can make for huge issues at that range. If you think you aren’t “seeing” your sight picture the first thing I would do is no BS clean the hell out of your sights with some alcohol. It seems weird, but dirty sights can make things “fuzzy”. Sight Black is a product that lets you apply a bit of flat black to your sights that you can wipe off if you don’t like it. If your sights are “all black” then make them really black. See if that helps. If you are using tactical/combat sights you may have a dots and bars to use. The alcohol clean should be fine, but don’t paint/blacken unless you want a different picture.

4.) I think I posted some material on dry fire/trigger control before. I am going to see if I can find it before I re-type a bunch.

5.) Mechanical accuracy matters at range. It isn’t just you shooting a 4,5,8, ect. inch group it is your ability and the mechanical repeatability of the gun. Different ammo can also have effects here, both in total precision and in point of impact vs point of aim.

6.) One handed and two handed work is good. Goals matter though. If you are looking at defensive use or LEO work I would concentrate of freestyle a bit first. If you are looking at competitive target shooting a lot of that is Strong hand only. IF you are looking at “Practical Shooting” comps that is almost all freestyle.

Hope at least some of that helps.

Regards,

Robert A

11

From Ranzo’s log

[quote]A drunken gun monkey wrote:
RE: Snatching the Trigger

Assumption is that you are snatching the trigger and not “flinching”/trying to manage the recoil before it starts.

I have a similar issue, but probably worse. Small hands make grip and trigger control real important for me putting the holes where I want them.

Dry practice is usually beneficial. If you don’t have snap caps, buy some (A-zoom brand is my choice). Follow all dry fire precautions (ammo in another room, triple check condition of firearm, backstop/“safe” direction if possible, etc.)

Work on really seeing what happens to your sights when you work the trigger. Ideally you should be able to “call” your shots based on your sight picture at ignition and not have to check the target. If the front blade dips or scoots to the side that tells you where your miss went. Work on the whol “Compressed, surprise break” thing. A lot of folks like the empty case on the front sight drill, but because I have to rack between shots and because the “crunk-SPRONG” of the Glock trigger tends to vibrate the slide a bit I and I don’t feel like I pick up a ton with it currently. It is great with revolvers or DA/SA autos though.

I have noticed that grip is really important for this problem. Shooting freestyle (both hands on the gun) I don’t really have too much of an issue, even at speed. Alter my grip and my ability to place shots quickly goes down. Suddenly the front blade is more likely to veer off. Strong hand only is even worse. At current I cannot shoot fast and accurate support side only. Reason for saying all that is that if this is an ongoing thing anything you can do to work on getting a consistent and stable grip should help. Dry practice from the holster, one handed or two, ect.

Because you noted that speed was a huge part of when the problem surfaced (and in your story you also had to pick your gun up from an unusual position and then do manipulations) there are some ways to make square range training more beneficial as well. Get a shot timer (if you don’t have one there are aps from Surefire and Taurus for smart phones) and practice making a “quick” shot from low or contact ready. Don’t worry about the mic recording your shots, just use the par time feature.

EXAMPLE:

Target-8x11" paper with visible, bright aiming circle at it’s center.(Use a marker or sticker)

Range-7 yards(or whatever range you are constrained to)

Drill- Start position is low ready, eyes on target (you have your target/threat ID’d and the buzzer subs in for the “must”/“should” shoot stimulus). At the buzzer raise your weapon and place one good shot on paper before the end buzzer.(Note: most of us while tell ourselves “at” the buzzer was “in”. It isn’t. The buzzer adds tenths of a second. Shot has to come before the end signal or it doesn’t count.) Repeat.

Drill must be shot clean prior to lowering par time. If using the above range and target start with something like a second and a half and work down in .10 increments. Some very dialed in folks us .50 as the target goal which works out to .25 to react and .25 to break the shot.(at 7 yards).

Easy drill, but turns a “slow fire” range into something more useful.
[/quote]

There is also some info in the Bad Ideas thread.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Robert A

12

Sir,

I would like to help you, and I made note that you are firing right-handed, and you said “free-style”. By this, do you mean one handed? Also…I may have missed it, but what type of weapon are you firing? Revolver or semi-auto, make and caliber, please. Then, we’ll get down to business.

13

Also…phillipj’s advice is brilliant if you’re shooting a rifle. Pistol shooting is different enough to require it’s own set of skills.

14

For what its worth, I do dry fire a couple times a week when the wife is shopping. I set out some paper targets in the chairs in the living room. Serves to keep my reload/FTF/FTE/site picture skills up to some type of par , without expending precious ammo. Then before the groceries arrive it all goes back out of site. I apologize for not providing a more productive answer in my first post. I had a bit of a paradigm shift in reference to my shooting training this summer when I took a 2 two day defensive handgun course. It was a eye opener , having shot IPSA and IDPA since the 1980’s I had picked up a lot of bad habits that just don’t work really well in the real world. With a lot of practice I was able to erase most of these from nervous system. Thus the recommendation to impart perhaps the same experience to you.

15

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Sir,

I would like to help you, and I made note that you are firing right-handed, and you said “free-style”. By this, do you mean one handed? Also…I may have missed it, but what type of weapon are you firing? Revolver or semi-auto, make and caliber, please. Then, we’ll get down to business.[/quote]

I use different calibers. I basically rent from the gun club. I use anything from 9mm to .45. As for free style, what I meant was your standard military/police 2 handed grip. Something like this.http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/1911Grip.jpg
I generally fire semi-auto. Make is anything from a glock to a P228.
I understand that every fire arm is different but I’m looking for general technique guidelines.

16

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Sir,

I would like to help you, and I made note that you are firing right-handed, and you said “free-style”. By this, do you mean one handed? Also…I may have missed it, but what type of weapon are you firing? Revolver or semi-auto, make and caliber, please. Then, we’ll get down to business.[/quote]

I use different calibers. I basically rent from the gun club. I use anything from 9mm to .45. As for free style, what I meant was your standard military/police 2 handed grip. Something like this.http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/1911Grip.jpg
I generally fire semi-auto. Make is anything from a glock to a P228.
I understand that every fire arm is different but I’m looking for general technique guidelines.
[/quote]

Blaze,
You have already received excellent advise from Robert and others, so, I dont want to cloud the issue with redundant information. Mapwrap will also weight with solid experience and I look forward to following this thread. To add my .2 cents: I have been involved with training foreign units and have had to deal with the same problems on numerous occassions.

Note: This is for handguns only. This is only for COMBAT related shooting under 15 yards. I am not an expert on target shooting.

  • “too much” finger on the trigger. Only use the pad of the trigger finger, not the crease of the first joint. too much finger will throw your shots left or right. This seems to be a major, major problem with foreign trainees.

  • Not firmly “seating” the pistol in the “web” of the hand (space between thumb and first finger). If there is any “gap”, if you can see any space between the bottom of the slide and the hand on th egrip, then you will not have full control of the firearm.

  • The “death” grip. Too much of a " pressure grip" with either the strong hand or supporting hand will translate into too much pressure on the trigger. I have seen personnel grip the pistol so hard, the tendons would pop out. The grip should be firm but “relaxed”, like holding a warm cup of coffee in both hands, tight enough to not drop it , but, still able to control. Remember, just like in all martial atrs, its the form that serves you well.

  • I know you probably know this, but, good sight alignment, good sight picture. And that varies with distance and how much time you have to work with. For example: If I was going to shoot a STATIONARY target at 25 yards/25 meters, I would allow my subconscious mind take over and not really “look” at the target and fully focus on lining my front sight up as perfect as possible with the rear sight. The target will actually become a blur in the distance. In a combat situation, 15, 7, or 3 yards, then the front sight is primary. Training and experience will take over here.

This is just a few tips to start with until others post. For a more indept approach, I would like to suggest:

Two classics that everyone should read:

17

idaho,

Fantastic post. Thank you for taking the time to type that out.

Blaze,

idaho is a no bullshit S.M.E. with regards to teaching and application here, so it would be wise to listen to him.

mapwhap also has a ton of experience not just shooting, but teaching so if he gets back in here I would pay extra attention there as well.

With respect to the recommended books.

I love Cooper’s Principles.

If you can find the Bill Jordan book for an affordable price get it.

The Enos book is fantastic, but it is really Zen in the Art of Putting Metal Through Your Target. I would buy it, but depending on where your skill development is you might want to shelve it, or breeze through it the first read. It is something that can be re-read every year and new things learned/pondered.

Here is another thread I started a year ago, with an article I really like for teaching the de-facto standard Enos/Leatham thumbs forward grip.

The thread also has some great information from idaho and WN76.

Hope this helped.

Regards,

Robert A

18

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:

[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Sir,

I would like to help you, and I made note that you are firing right-handed, and you said “free-style”. By this, do you mean one handed? Also…I may have missed it, but what type of weapon are you firing? Revolver or semi-auto, make and caliber, please. Then, we’ll get down to business.[/quote]

I use different calibers. I basically rent from the gun club. I use anything from 9mm to .45. As for free style, what I meant was your standard military/police 2 handed grip. Something like this.http://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/1911Grip.jpg
I generally fire semi-auto. Make is anything from a glock to a P228.
I understand that every fire arm is different but I’m looking for general technique guidelines.
[/quote]

Blaze,

I don’t want you to take this as criticism, because if switching platforms makes it more fun/interesting to you than that may make it the best course. Personally, I think trying to stick to one trigger type for a bit before jumping makes session to session improvement easier.

Glock triggers are striker fired. They are very useable, but not like double action or single action hammer fired triggers. Sigs are often DA/SA or sometimes DAO or their DAK system. Your post leads me to believe you already get just how different they are from Glocks.

If possible than holding to one action type for a few months might help. Just glocks, or just DA/SA autos could be doable. I wouldn’t worry about the individual gun if you are renting, but at least let you get 1,000 rounds through the same action type before making it difficult and switching.

It might also behoove you to pick the gun with the “best” sights since you have ID’d that as a possible failure point. If using factory sights that would steer me away from Glock, because I hate the dot in box sight picture.

Just some thoughts. If mapwhap or idaho disagree, or even just think it doesn’t matter, than take their opinions over mine.

Regards,

Robert A

19

Well…it appears to me that Idaho pretty much nailed it on the head. Based on the picture of the grip you use (the “thumbs forward” grip, if you will) and the shot placement you speak of at 25 yards, I would guess you are either using too much trigger finger, death-gripping the gun, or both.

What do your targets look like at closer range? Say at 7 yards? If the same error is present, then we need to start at that range, correct the error, and then go slowly back to the 25. An error of an inch at 7 yards is going to turn into 6-8 inches at 25.

While it is true that the grip you are using is the most common (and IMO, the best) for combat style shooting, it does lend itself to “over-gripping” with the shooting hand. You won’t see it when your sights are aligned, but as you start to squeeze off the round, you’ll anticipate the recoil just a bit and squeeze with the right hand a bit more…leading to a left of target shot placement. Does that make sense?

The hardest part of that grip, even for me, is keeping EQUAL pressure on the gun. I tend to shoot just to the left of center quite a bit myself, due to the same thing. Also, the size of the pistol frame in your hand can cause similar issues, if the pistol is just a little too large for your hand. We tend to overcompensate by gripping harder.

The error takes some work to overcome, but I have no doubt you’ll be able to.

Also, as Robert suggested, you may, just for now, try to familiarize yourself with just one make and model. Once you have everything down fundamentally, you can move on to other pistols.

Having a competent coach right there to watch is really the best thing to do. I hope the advice helps.

20

Hey guys,

Thanks for the advice. I don’t feel I am holding the gun too harshly or anticipating the shot much, though I have caught myself doing that. I generally use more than one mag, some are more full than others, some are empty, etc, as a way to ensure I don’t begin to anticipate the shot. I do not know which mag is in my pistol when I fire. I do the same thing when I shoot revolve: leave some of the chambers empty. I will take another look though, as I may be wrong.

Concerning the firearm I use, in Canada having a pistol is a pain in the ass as far as paper work is concerned, and given that I move often, it is not in my interest (financially or legally) to purchase a pistol just yet. So for now I am stuck with using my friend’s firearms or the shooting club’s firearms. I will check out the books you guys mentioned and read over your posts and re-analyze my shooting in regards to your advice.

Thanks