Only Public or Private Schools?

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Dabba wrote:
I appreciate your egalitarian perspective, but people weren’t made to be worker bees filing in line to obey their master’s orders (another point is that public schools breed authority and obedience to “teachers”). There are ways that don’t involve the use of force and internment camps.
[/quote]

Internment camps? Did you just compare modern schools to internment camps?[/quote]

My school was designed after a prison, built by a company that got their start building prisons for countries in Europe during the start of the last century, and currently build prisons in America.

They also built two other schools (in my State) that have the exact same outlay as my school.

[Otep]

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Dabba wrote:
I appreciate your egalitarian perspective, but people weren’t made to be worker bees filing in line to obey their master’s orders (another point is that public schools breed authority and obedience to “teachers”). There are ways that don’t involve the use of force and internment camps.
[/quote]

Internment camps? Did you just compare modern schools to internment camps?[/quote]

My school was designed after a prison, built by a company that got their start building prisons for countries in Europe during the start of the last century, and currently build prisons in America.

They also built two other schools (in my State) that have the exact same outlay as my school. [/quote]

Yes, but did they keep you there at gunpoint?

[dmaddox]

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Dabba wrote:
I appreciate your egalitarian perspective, but people weren’t made to be worker bees filing in line to obey their master’s orders (another point is that public schools breed authority and obedience to “teachers”). There are ways that don’t involve the use of force and internment camps.
[/quote]

Internment camps? Did you just compare modern schools to internment camps?[/quote]

My school was designed after a prison, built by a company that got their start building prisons for countries in Europe during the start of the last century, and currently build prisons in America.

They also built two other schools (in my State) that have the exact same outlay as my school. [/quote]

Yes, but did they keep you there at gunpoint?[/quote]

What happens when you or your child, depending on age, do not go to school? The cops show up at your house and escort you to school. The cops have guns don’t they. Seems like we have to go to school under gun point. If your child skips too much school, the court system will put a hefty fine against the parents. I know this happend because a single mother here at work has this issue. She drops her child off at school and heads to work. She gets a call that her daughter was not at school. The judge threatened a $5000 fine against the mother if the daughter did not go to school.

[Dabba]

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:
Yes, but did they keep you there at gunpoint?[/quote]

What happens when you or your child, depending on age, do not go to school? The cops show up at your house and escort you to school. The cops have guns don’t they. Seems like we have to go to school under gun point. If your child skips too much school, the court system will put a hefty fine against the parents. I know this happend because a single mother here at work has this issue. She drops her child off at school and heads to work. She gets a call that her daughter was not at school. The judge threatened a $5000 fine against the mother if the daughter did not go to school. [/quote]

Yep. And if you don’t pay your fine, you get arrested. If you resist arrest (because you believe you have been treated unjustly) you get shot and possibly killed. There is violence and coercion behind public school (and anything “public” for that matter) regardless of how much you try to justify it on a utilitarian basis. The death threat never goes away. Like I said before, when it takes two cop cars to chase down a freakin’ 14 year old kid, and handcuff him all because he just wants to leave, something is seriously wrong with the system.

[pat]

This is why you want to be real careful on what you give to the government to run. Once the cat’s out of the bag, it’s damn near impossible to put it back in.
That being said, the public schools around my house are excellent, far batter than the private school my kids were in…I mean waaaaay better.

[THE_CLAMP_DOWN]

[quote]pat wrote:
That being said, the public schools around my house are excellent, far batter than the private school my kids were in…I mean waaaaay better.[/quote]

How is said private school still up and running?

[Erasmus]

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
I live by the virtue of empati.

but I am concerd, because I believe that it is importent in a democracy that
all of the public knows how to read, that they know history and more.

on the other hand I aknowledge the importence of intellectual skills to succseed
in our modern society. people who is left out of the education system does have bigger
a bigger chance to fall in the bottom of the society that their educated counterparts.
and since I am an egalitarian person by heart ( have always been, even as a child ) this is importent
for me. maybe not for you, but you have other ideals than me.
[/quote]
I wrote a gem of a post, but sadly, my pc froze.

So heres the short version:

Heres the problem
People see the poor and ask “How are they going to receive education in a private system?” Their instinctive collective answer is " WE got to do something". They have immediatly thrown me and others into the mix. They ask for my money, my time. They do not take into account my goals, my happiness, my aspirations. They do not ask themselves “What I can do”. But if they were really passionate about it, they would ask that. They would raise the capital. Make the time. Produce connections and persuade investors. They would create schools that ran off donations, charities, investments, and private money. The ones with a sound philosophical base do it this way. They don’t sit in room writing up a bill that is going to FORCE others to donate to this view.

So if your not going to pursue this idea of helping the poor through private means and your own measures then you 1) dont really give a shit and lack the passion or 2) Have been brainwashed by the collective WE idea.

ps- I have a strong passion for education and I will be the guy who will open up a center for the unfortunate. :)[/quote]

Brilliant post!

[dmaddox]

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
That being said, the public schools around my house are excellent, far batter than the private school my kids were in…I mean waaaaay better.[/quote]

How is said private school still up and running?
[/quote]

Why did you send your children to this private school then?

[Otep]

[quote]Dabba wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:
Yes, but did they keep you there at gunpoint?[/quote]

What happens when you or your child, depending on age, do not go to school? The cops show up at your house and escort you to school. The cops have guns don’t they. Seems like we have to go to school under gun point. If your child skips too much school, the court system will put a hefty fine against the parents. I know this happend because a single mother here at work has this issue. She drops her child off at school and heads to work. She gets a call that her daughter was not at school. The judge threatened a $5000 fine against the mother if the daughter did not go to school. [/quote]

Yep. And if you don’t pay your fine, you get arrested. If you resist arrest (because you believe you have been treated unjustly) you get shot and possibly killed. There is violence and coercion behind public school (and anything “public” for that matter) regardless of how much you try to justify it on a utilitarian basis. The death threat never goes away. Like I said before, when it takes two cop cars to chase down a freakin’ 14 year old kid, and handcuff him all because he just wants to leave, something is seriously wrong with the system.
[/quote]

No, no, no. I meant, at GUNPOINT. As in, there are armed guards patrolling the grounds in case an inmate attempts to leave, and they have orders to shoot on sight or some such. What you’re describing is the enforcement of laws according to due process, not a martial-law type of situation, which is what was at first alluded to.

Equating public schools with internment camps is an idea I expect out of 14 year-olds who think their parents are Nazi’s because they won’t let them get high with their friends on a Friday night. Well, that and… you two, apparently.

[Dabba]

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Dabba wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:
Yes, but did they keep you there at gunpoint?[/quote]

What happens when you or your child, depending on age, do not go to school? The cops show up at your house and escort you to school. The cops have guns don’t they. Seems like we have to go to school under gun point. If your child skips too much school, the court system will put a hefty fine against the parents. I know this happend because a single mother here at work has this issue. She drops her child off at school and heads to work. She gets a call that her daughter was not at school. The judge threatened a $5000 fine against the mother if the daughter did not go to school. [/quote]

Yep. And if you don’t pay your fine, you get arrested. If you resist arrest (because you believe you have been treated unjustly) you get shot and possibly killed. There is violence and coercion behind public school (and anything “public” for that matter) regardless of how much you try to justify it on a utilitarian basis. The death threat never goes away. Like I said before, when it takes two cop cars to chase down a freakin’ 14 year old kid, and handcuff him all because he just wants to leave, something is seriously wrong with the system.
[/quote]

No, no, no. I meant, at GUNPOINT. As in, there are armed guards patrolling the grounds in case an inmate attempts to leave, and they have orders to shoot on sight or some such. What you’re describing is the enforcement of laws according to due process, not a martial-law type of situation, which is what was at first alluded to.

Equating public schools with internment camps is an idea I expect out of 14 year-olds who think their parents are Nazi’s because they won’t let them get high with their friends on a Friday night. Well, that and… you two, apparently.[/quote]

What do you think happens if you resist arrest? They use violence against you. They will call armed guards if you attempt to leave, as per my story. In any case, you are being in some way violated if you do not agree to their law. This is called coercion.

[LIFTICVSMAXIMVS]

And yes there are some schools that have armed cops patrolling the halls…and the kids have to go thru metal detectors!!

Wow, what a learning environment that must be.

[dmaddox]

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Dabba wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:
Yes, but did they keep you there at gunpoint?[/quote]

What happens when you or your child, depending on age, do not go to school? The cops show up at your house and escort you to school. The cops have guns don’t they. Seems like we have to go to school under gun point. If your child skips too much school, the court system will put a hefty fine against the parents. I know this happend because a single mother here at work has this issue. She drops her child off at school and heads to work. She gets a call that her daughter was not at school. The judge threatened a $5000 fine against the mother if the daughter did not go to school. [/quote]

Yep. And if you don’t pay your fine, you get arrested. If you resist arrest (because you believe you have been treated unjustly) you get shot and possibly killed. There is violence and coercion behind public school (and anything “public” for that matter) regardless of how much you try to justify it on a utilitarian basis. The death threat never goes away. Like I said before, when it takes two cop cars to chase down a freakin’ 14 year old kid, and handcuff him all because he just wants to leave, something is seriously wrong with the system.
[/quote]

No, no, no. I meant, at GUNPOINT. As in, there are armed guards patrolling the grounds in case an inmate attempts to leave, and they have orders to shoot on sight or some such. What you’re describing is the enforcement of laws according to due process, not a martial-law type of situation, which is what was at first alluded to.

Equating public schools with internment camps is an idea I expect out of 14 year-olds who think their parents are Nazi’s because they won’t let them get high with their friends on a Friday night. Well, that and… you two, apparently.[/quote]

I quess you did not read my post. I would not call having two police officers come to your house and take your child to school due process. It might be the law, but that is our point. If your child under the age of 18 does not go to school they will be taken to school and you will be put in jail.

I never stated that schools were internment camps, but do you really have a say in what is taught in those schools? The children are forced to learn certain subjects. I am all for Math, Science, History, but English was an issue for me. We were forced to read certain books and were not given any choices. I will say when I was a Senior in High School my English teacher wanted us to read the Color Purple. There was a unanimous vote from the class of no. We moaned and groaned so she told us she would give us a choice of 6 books. I actually had a choice in what book I got to read. The book I chose was Ender’s Game and I enjoyed reading it. That was the first book that I sat and read in a matter of days, and not the 2-4 weeks that we usually got.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Dabba wrote:
I appreciate your egalitarian perspective, but people weren’t made to be worker bees filing in line to obey their master’s orders (another point is that public schools breed authority and obedience to “teachers”). There are ways that don’t involve the use of force and internment camps.
[/quote]

Internment camps? Did you just compare modern schools to internment camps?[/quote]

My school was designed after a prison, built by a company that got their start building prisons for countries in Europe during the start of the last century, and currently build prisons in America.

They also built two other schools (in my State) that have the exact same outlay as my school. [/quote]

Yes, but did they keep you there at gunpoint?[/quote]

Yes. They had security guards, I got in a verbal squabble as I was leaving and the cops came just as I was leaving the campus and had drawn their guns to make me slow down and stop as I was about to jump the curb with my truck.

[kaaleppi]

Public or private, does it matter as long as basic education is mandatory? As an example, Finland wouldn’t be the relatively wealthy country it is today without a public school. Look at the rise of India or China, public basic education, it is the best way to reach to the potential in lower classes. If the public schooling system sucks, as it in America apparently does for the most part, thats another question entirely.

[Otep]

[quote]Dabba wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Dabba wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:
Yes, but did they keep you there at gunpoint?[/quote]

What happens when you or your child, depending on age, do not go to school? The cops show up at your house and escort you to school. The cops have guns don’t they. Seems like we have to go to school under gun point. If your child skips too much school, the court system will put a hefty fine against the parents. I know this happend because a single mother here at work has this issue. She drops her child off at school and heads to work. She gets a call that her daughter was not at school. The judge threatened a $5000 fine against the mother if the daughter did not go to school. [/quote]

Yep. And if you don’t pay your fine, you get arrested. If you resist arrest (because you believe you have been treated unjustly) you get shot and possibly killed. There is violence and coercion behind public school (and anything “public” for that matter) regardless of how much you try to justify it on a utilitarian basis. The death threat never goes away. Like I said before, when it takes two cop cars to chase down a freakin’ 14 year old kid, and handcuff him all because he just wants to leave, something is seriously wrong with the system.
[/quote]

No, no, no. I meant, at GUNPOINT. As in, there are armed guards patrolling the grounds in case an inmate attempts to leave, and they have orders to shoot on sight or some such. What you’re describing is the enforcement of laws according to due process, not a martial-law type of situation, which is what was at first alluded to.

Equating public schools with internment camps is an idea I expect out of 14 year-olds who think their parents are Nazi’s because they won’t let them get high with their friends on a Friday night. Well, that and… you two, apparently.[/quote]

What do you think happens if you resist arrest? They use violence against you. They will call armed guards if you attempt to leave, as per my story. In any case, you are being in some way violated if you do not agree to their law. This is called coercion.[/quote]

Sure. I agree with you that the enforcement of laws involves the use of coercion by agents of the government onto its populace.

My problem was you equated public schools with internment camps. Upon further discussion, it seems you did not intend this as hyperbole, but that this is indeed your opinion.

I can respect that.

I’m assuming you also believe that the requirement to own a liquor license before selling liquor similarly creates an internment-camp-like situation, seeing as a violation of this, too, involves the use of government coercion.

Or the pay of municipal road construction crews, as this too involves the use of government coercion.

Or the requirement of passing the CPA exam for public accountants and bar exam to practice law, as these too, involve the use of government coercion.

Or any number of similar elements of government coercion that you equate with an intermnent-like environment.

You’ve been living in captivity your whole life.

[Otep]

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Public or private, does it matter as long as basic education is mandatory? As an example, Finland wouldn’t be the relatively wealthy country it is today without a public school. Look at the rise of India or China, public basic education, it is the best way to reach to the potential in lower classes. If the public schooling system sucks, as it in America apparently does for the most part, thats another question entirely.[/quote]

Private, but mandatory. I like it. Maybe we could also include a small, government-run service to allow for those that can’t afford regular education. We’ll call it ‘the public option’, or something like that.

[Dabba]

[quote]Otep wrote:
Sure. I agree with you that the enforcement of laws involves the use of coercion by agents of the government onto its populace.

My problem was you equated public schools with internment camps. Upon further discussion, it seems you did not intend this as hyperbole, but that this is indeed your opinion.

I can respect that.

I’m assuming you also believe that the requirement to own a liquor license before selling liquor similarly creates an internment-camp-like situation, seeing as a violation of this, too, involves the use of government coercion.[/quote]

There is no one actively keeping you in a cage. In public schools, there are.

[quote]Or the pay of municipal road construction crews, as this too involves the use of government coercion.

Or the requirement of passing the CPA exam for public accountants and bar exam to practice law, as these too, involve the use of government coercion.

Or any number of similar elements of government coercion that you equate with an intermnent-like environment.[/quote]

These are all forms of coercion, indeed, but public school is a special kind since they ACTIVELY prevent you from leaving and/or force you to go somewhere.

You’ve been living in captivity your whole life.

Indeed I have. It has been shown to you on this thread that it is a slightly different situation though in public schools. You really cannot walk off the premises in many situations. It wouldn’t be so bad (though still wrong) if the actual education was sound. But, as with other monopolies, it doesn’t work well to have one overarching authority planning the educational system.

You really went to town with my use of “internment”, huh? I guess I should choose my words a little more carefully next time, although it seems highly analogous to me.

[Dabba]

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Public or private, does it matter as long as basic education is mandatory? As an example, Finland wouldn’t be the relatively wealthy country it is today without a public school. Look at the rise of India or China, public basic education, it is the best way to reach to the potential in lower classes. If the public schooling system sucks, as it in America apparently does for the most part, thats another question entirely.[/quote]

Private, but mandatory. I like it.[/quote]

That’s essentially the idea of the voucher system. Which is probably at least a little better than what we have right now.

[Brother_Chris]

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Public or private, does it matter as long as basic education is mandatory? As an example, Finland wouldn’t be the relatively wealthy country it is today without a public school. Look at the rise of India or China, public basic education, it is the best way to reach to the potential in lower classes. If the public schooling system sucks, as it in America apparently does for the most part, thats another question entirely.[/quote]

Actually not having a completely totalitarian government over them is the best wawy to reach the potential in lower classes.

[John_S1]

[quote]Dabba wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:
Public or private, does it matter as long as basic education is mandatory? As an example, Finland wouldn’t be the relatively wealthy country it is today without a public school. Look at the rise of India or China, public basic education, it is the best way to reach to the potential in lower classes. If the public schooling system sucks, as it in America apparently does for the most part, thats another question entirely.[/quote]

Private, but mandatory. I like it.[/quote]

That’s essentially the idea of the voucher system. Which is probably at least a little better than what we have right now.
[/quote]

As long as it was left at the state level it would be a lot better.