Only Public or Private Schools?

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
21

Public only (but with the qaulification that they all be charter schools).

I’ve known too many people, even of parents who have means, who had to fight just to get to school. If there weren’t a mandate, or their parents had had to pay/take the time to think about where their kid went to school, they never would have made it.

I think it’s naive to think people would end up “figuring it out”.

One of the friends in particular , was a very smart, hard working, woman, who’s father would physically restrain her and prevent her from going to school so she could be a filling clerk in his office (read free labor) routinely. The only thing that stopped him from doing this everyday was the fact that her attendance was kept track of by the school, and once they saw what was going on, they let him know he couldn’t do that (and that didn’t stop it completely, she still ended up in summer school a number of years for too many missed days).

22

Private schools. I for one am in favor of the voucher system.

Just because you have private schools doesn’t mean your state still can’t say you have to go to school.

23

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Lots of poor people go to private schools even with the tax burden of funding public ones.[/quote]

So you are 100% shure that no poor kid will not get an education if there where only privat schools
without anyform of public funding?

[/quote]
I’d think if a kid is smart and wiling they’d get one…[/quote]

Yes, this!

It’s only the “smart and willing” that do well in school regardless if it is free or private or if they are rich or poor.

The ones that have the best chance to succeed are the children whose parents impress upon them the importance of their education. Sadly, this is something no public school has the ability to address – nor does the institution stand to benefit by attempting to.

24

I go with private.
Like Otep said, this is a no brainer.

If it was all private schools, people that had time and money would set up charities or scholarships for the poor to go to school (this already exists, but on a much lesser scale due to gov. assistance).

and Floreius, why are you so concerned with everyone getting a basic education?
Be concerned with yourself. And others, to be concerned with their own self.
The Virtue of Selfishness.

25

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
I go with private.
Like Otep said, this is a no brainer.

If it was all private schools, people that had time and money would set up charities or scholarships for the poor to go to school (this already exists, but on a much lesser scale due to gov. assistance).

and Floreius, why are you so concerned with everyone getting a basic education?
Be concerned with yourself. And others, to be concerned with their own self.
The Virtue of Selfishness.

[/quote]

I live by the virtue of empati.

but I am concerd, because I believe that it is importent in a democracy that
all of the public knows how to read, that they know history and more.

on the other hand I aknowledge the importence of intellectual skills to succseed
in our modern society. people who is left out of the education system does have bigger
a bigger chance to fall in the bottom of the society that their educated counterparts.
and since I am an egalitarian person by heart ( have always been, even as a child ) this is importent
for me. maybe not for you, but you have other ideals than me.

26

Everyone pays for public education on some sort of scale. In Texas you have property taxes and the rate on each house is pretty high. Even the poor pay this property tax even if they are just renting. The rent includes the School Distric tax, cost of doing business, in the rent. You get rid of this tax you might see rents go down. When rents go down more disposible income to pay for private school.

As THE_CLAMP_DOWN stated you would see charities rise up to fill the gap, but each individual school would be allowed to kick a child out of school for cronic misbehavior. right now the schools are more discipline oriented or day care oriented because they can not pass the buck to the next school. The public schools have to put up with this crap every day, and there is nothing they can do about it, or they will get sued. The privat scholls will have the parents sign a contract telling them when they will kick a child out of the school, and they will report the behavior to the next school.

27

[quote]florelius wrote:
but I am concerd, because I believe that it is importent in a democracy that
all of the public knows how to read, that they know history and more.[/quote]

So are other people, however there are different means to this end. I don’t agree with THE_CLAMP_DOWN’s Randian assessment that we should just watch the world burn as long as we are happy and fulfilled. But that doesn’t mean that the only other option is to force people to go to a school for 12 years where they are completely removed from their families, forced to associate with people they may not want to, and forced to learn a state-mandated curriculum.

[quote]on the other hand I aknowledge the importence of intellectual skills to succseed
in our modern society. people who is left out of the education system does have bigger
a bigger chance to fall in the bottom of the society that their educated counterparts.
and since I am an egalitarian person by heart ( have always been, even as a child ) this is importent[/quote]

The only reason school is so vitally important is because everyone is forced to go. If everyone wasn’t forced to go, do you think there would be as much emphasis on it as there is now? And I am differentiating now between “school” and “education”. The fact is, that most of the poor people who go to public school do not receive an education. The public school system is a disgrace and at least those kids would be able to start working earlier (or join a private school, which even the standards on the cheaper ones would most likely be better) rather than being forced to go to a prison where they are having all creativity and initiative sucked out of them.

I appreciate your egalitarian perspective, but people weren’t made to be worker bees filing in line to obey their master’s orders (another point is that public schools breed authority and obedience to “teachers”). There are ways that don’t involve the use of force and internment camps.

28

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
I go with private.
Like Otep said, this is a no brainer.

If it was all private schools, people that had time and money would set up charities or scholarships for the poor to go to school (this already exists, but on a much lesser scale due to gov. assistance).

and Floreius, why are you so concerned with everyone getting a basic education?
Be concerned with yourself. And others, to be concerned with their own self.
The Virtue of Selfishness.

[/quote]

I live by the virtue of empati.

but I am concerd, because I believe that it is importent in a democracy that
all of the public knows how to read, that they know history and more.

on the other hand I aknowledge the importence of intellectual skills to succseed
in our modern society. people who is left out of the education system does have bigger
a bigger chance to fall in the bottom of the society that their educated counterparts.
and since I am an egalitarian person by heart ( have always been, even as a child ) this is importent
for me. maybe not for you, but you have other ideals than me.
[/quote]

We all want people to be equal in some respects, but not all people are created equal. The only parts that are equal or our rights to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness. If you want to work hard and get ahead then go ahead and do that. If you want to be lazy and expect to get ahead then try that, but when you do not get ahead do not cry to us that you do not have the ability to get ahead. The US gives everyone the opportunity to get ahead if you want to. Forcefully making people equal IMO is not right.

Money is not bad or good. It is neutral. Socialists beleive that humans are bad, and uncapable of helping other humans, so they select few government officals that they beleive want to help people, and force everyone to pay huge amounts of taxes. These taxes are then redistributed to the masses so everyone can be equal, but just because you all have the same things does not make you equal.

I was raised to work very hard. Nothing was ever given to me. If I wanted a new pair of shoes because the old ones had a hole in it I had to mow the grass a few times to make enough money for new shoes. Would my parents have let me go without shoes no, but they wanted to see how much I wanted something. If they paid for the shoes without me working I got the pair they wanted me to have. $5 pair of KMart blue light specials. If I wanted the name brand then I had to mow the yard more times. I am very frugal with my money today, because I understand that I have to work really hard to earn something. I take better care of my stuff because I have to work hard for it.

This will be debateable and sorry for taking this thread on a tangent. My house is nice because I take care of it, the projects in the inner city look like crap because the people living there get it for free so they do not give a crap.

The difference between Children and Grown ups is our ability to defer gratification. IMO welfare recipients are Children because they want it now, while entrepenuers are the Grown ups. They dely gratification and work hard to save up the money to get exactly what they want. My father always said, “beggers can not be chosers.”

I am starting to sound like an old man. Hey you kids get off my lawn.

29

[quote]florelius wrote:
If you could choose between only public schools or only privat schools, what would you choose?

I would choose only public schools, because then everyone would get an basic education.[/quote]

Uh…no…

In fact, tuition should be charged for ALL schools. People don’t give a shit when they get somethingt for free.

30

[quote]florelius wrote:
I live by the virtue of empati.

but I am concerd, because I believe that it is importent in a democracy that
all of the public knows how to read, that they know history and more.

on the other hand I aknowledge the importence of intellectual skills to succseed
in our modern society. people who is left out of the education system does have bigger
a bigger chance to fall in the bottom of the society that their educated counterparts.
and since I am an egalitarian person by heart ( have always been, even as a child ) this is importent
for me. maybe not for you, but you have other ideals than me.
[/quote]
I wrote a gem of a post, but sadly, my pc froze.

So heres the short version:

Heres the problem
People see the poor and ask “How are they going to receive education in a private system?” Their instinctive collective answer is " WE got to do something". They have immediatly thrown me and others into the mix. They ask for my money, my time. They do not take into account my goals, my happiness, my aspirations. They do not ask themselves “What I can do”. But if they were really passionate about it, they would ask that. They would raise the capital. Make the time. Produce connections and persuade investors. They would create schools that ran off donations, charities, investments, and private money. The ones with a sound philosophical base do it this way. They don’t sit in room writing up a bill that is going to FORCE others to donate to this view.

So if your not going to pursue this idea of helping the poor through private means and your own measures then you 1) dont really give a shit and lack the passion or 2) Have been brainwashed by the collective WE idea.

ps- I have a strong passion for education and I will be the guy who will open up a center for the unfortunate. :slight_smile:

31

[quote]florelius wrote:
this is importent
for me. maybe not for you, but you have other ideals than me.
[/quote]

So glad you recognize this.
So why then would you make me “pay” for your ideals?

32

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
this is importent
for me. maybe not for you, but you have other ideals than me.
[/quote]

So glad you recognize this.
So why then would you make me “pay” for your ideals?[/quote]

you meen tax right, If you are an rightwing anarchist you have a good question:)

but if you are an conservative who wants me to pay tax for your police and military,
then I can ask you: why should I pay for your ideals( a state that is design to preserve capitalism)?

ps. I dont know your ideology, so let me know where you stand. If its unclear I am an socialist, but do believe you know that by know.

33

[quote]Dabba wrote:
I appreciate your egalitarian perspective, but people weren’t made to be worker bees filing in line to obey their master’s orders (another point is that public schools breed authority and obedience to “teachers”). There are ways that don’t involve the use of force and internment camps.
[/quote]

Internment camps? Did you just compare modern schools to internment camps?

34

[quote]Otep wrote:

[quote]Dabba wrote:
I appreciate your egalitarian perspective, but people weren’t made to be worker bees filing in line to obey their master’s orders (another point is that public schools breed authority and obedience to “teachers”). There are ways that don’t involve the use of force and internment camps.
[/quote]

Internment camps? Did you just compare modern schools to internment camps?[/quote]

Ha ha, I thought I might get a kick out of someone for that. It was a BIT of an exaggeration. Main point still stands.

35

I think an interment camp is a perfect analogy for modern American public schools.

36

However, I don’t want to shy away from my point. Public school is one of our most authoritarian institutions. I mean, you are sent there for 7-8 hours a day (against your will), forced to follow instructions from a teacher who is pretty much immune from being fired if they’re tenured. You are then forced to associate with people whom you may or may not have associated with before. The material is standardized testing for all, so you don’t get much individual attention. You then sit there and try to learn in this atmosphere. There is no real market. Teachers rarely get fired and improvements are slow because competition isn’t really allowed. I remember in one of my schools, a kid tried to run away during gym class and it took 2 cop cars to chase him down the street, handcuff him, and humiliate him in front of everyone. In many ways, it is a prison.

37

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

if you mandate this: [quote]Publicly funded[/quote]; you will not get this: [quote]privately delivered.[/quote]
[/quote]

Why not? Its quite obviously the teacher’s Unions fault that teaching in US/Can/Western Europe blows nuts at public schools. I went to a private school that was excellent, relatively expensive, delivered 10% better SAT scores across the whole grad class, and the net cost per student (including public funding) was still LESS than the shitty local public high school. Not to mention state of the art sporting facilities, and excellent Rugby/Hocky/Soccer and Track programs.

The public system is extremely wasteful. And I feel that Public-Private Partnerships are an excellent way to deliver results without excess burden on the average taxpayer.

38

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
If there were only public schools everyone would get the same education. That is a bad thing.

On the other hand with private schools everyone with the means and interest could get the education they actually wanted versus the education some other buffoon thinks they need.

From my own perspective of public schools, I did not learn a f’in thing that I didn’t already learn myself or from my parents.

If we think about it logically, education is in the home first and foremost. It does not matter if we give education away for free if parents are not diligent enough to make sure their children are studying and the teachers are teaching. Giving education to people who do not care to be in class is a waste of money.

Besides, the world will always need unskilled laborers, why waste time and talent on these people?[/quote]

yeah why indeed waste time and money on the poor people, they can always work for minimum wages.
is this what you want liftic?[/quote]

Straw man argument.

If someone does not have the drive to be something more than unskilled labor why waste everyone’s time if they do not want to go to school?

39

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:
this is importent
for me. maybe not for you, but you have other ideals than me.
[/quote]

So glad you recognize this.
So why then would you make me “pay” for your ideals?[/quote]

you meen tax right, If you are an rightwing anarchist you have a good question:)

but if you are an conservative who wants me to pay tax for your police and military,
then I can ask you: why should I pay for your ideals( a state that is design to preserve capitalism)?

ps. I dont know your ideology, so let me know where you stand. If its unclear I am an socialist, but do believe you know that by know.
[/quote]

I send my kid to a private school or home-school him, why do I pay for your public school?

defense, roads, and courts are necessary parts of our current society.
If you dont want to pay for them, don’t live in society. Go live in the ANWR in Alaska or in the middle of nowhere in Montana. There won’t be any taxes there.

If you want to eat the ice cream, you pay for it.

ps- depends on the issue. You said pick one or the other - I picked private for the benefits for ME and society as a whole would be much greater. I believe having the option of both though in real life.

40

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]THE_CLAMP_DOWN wrote:
I go with private.
Like Otep said, this is a no brainer.

If it was all private schools, people that had time and money would set up charities or scholarships for the poor to go to school (this already exists, but on a much lesser scale due to gov. assistance).

and Floreius, why are you so concerned with everyone getting a basic education?
Be concerned with yourself. And others, to be concerned with their own self.
The Virtue of Selfishness.

[/quote]

I live by the virtue of empati.
[/quote]

Empathy?

Well, literacy rates in public schools is horrendous. Most students do not know their history, and certainly most do not understand correct history.

Modern society? Are you talking about the computer geniuses that learned by trial and error at the age of 8 how to dissect/rebuild/program computers in their father’s office, with no external education? Or the young entrepreneur who started a business and become a millionaire by the age of 18 because he had time to, when he dropped out of school at 16?

Or you talking about Bill Gates, who doesn’t have a college degree?

Or Carnegie who doesn’t have a 5th grade schooling, let alone high school diploma?

Or Colonel Sanders who only at age 67 got his GED?

Or Thomas Edison who doesn’t have more than two months of schooling to rub together?

Most people do not learn how to read/speak/socialize in school. They learn it out of it.