[quote]florelius wrote:
[quote]ReignIB wrote:
[quote]florelius wrote:
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
[quote]florelius wrote:
I have read the manifesto, and knowhere did it say:
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treat the people badly
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have a crazy preson as a god-like figure.
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start war with your neigbours.
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create a totalitarian capitalist state as china is.
one question: have you read the communist manifesto, or did you mistake it for “the prince” by machiavelli?[/quote]
well if you’re going to put the Marxist Philosophy into practice in the real world that’s one way to go about it, I suppose.
How else would you make the rich give up what they have to be equal with the poor? How else would you ensure everyone does his share of the work to make the Marxist society happen?
Short of a centrally controlled state dictatorship, how else would you do it? [/quote]
The goal of marxism is to free the proletariat from the capitalist classsociety. If you create a oneparty state or something similar, you just exchange the capitalist classsociety with the party`s classsociety. thats stupid and it doesnt take us to the goal. socialists who believe that it is necessary with a oneparty state are called leninist. So the poster I respoded to would be better off pointing out to the works of lenin, not marx.
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This whole “class struggle” spiel is nothing more than a hate-mongering doctrine.
It is based on a false logical conclusion that owners and investors of the enterprise are “the enemy” of the ppl they hire.
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well since the owners take out profit from the labor of the workers, that makes them exploiters. The owning class is the modern day aristocracy, but instead of a king providing them a letter of privilegium, the right to privat property acts as the modern day letter of privilegium. The core in the socialist cause is to alter the modern day understanding of property and by this act establish a society where a human have a real right to the fruits of theire labor not as today where a man has the right of the fruits of his property.
suma sumarum: the proletarian cause is as much hate mongering as the commeners cause in the fedual period.[/quote]
I don’t buy this and I don’t understand your position. First, everyone has a right to his property, including hired employees–they own homes, they own their income, and they own personal items–tv’s, computers, cars, etc. They have the right to the things they own. Second, the owners do not own the workers–that is called slave labor. They compensate workers for their skills and time. Therefore the workers do in fact “own the fruits of their labor”, since they get monetary and benefit compensation such as health insurance.
Thirdly, a man is compensated in PROPORTION to his ability and skill set. Most people do NOT have the vision and organizational skills to run a company, therefore most people should not get the amount of compensation that this contribution entails. The simple reality is that not everybody is equally smart or talented, and therefore not everybody can do the same job. Therefore those than can do jobs that are highly sought after and highly demanding should be compensated more.
and as much as we might wish that to be the case, some skills and qualities are rarer than others. Not everyone has the skills to operate and plan a business model and adapt as needed to market changes. However many, many more people have the ability to push a button, put a tire on a car in the assembly line, or wrap boxes. It does not make sense to reward the rare qualities the same as the very common skill sets.
Finally this workers democracy model applies readily (if at all) only to industrial companies where the worker works on the factory floor. The modern economy is driven very largely by Service oriented companies in which skill-set is very rare or very sought after. For instance, the biochemical research companies have extremely skilled workers, who can pursue many different careers. In order to to keep the workers with the company it is required to compensate them more than say janitors…both because you want to keep the skilled workers with you to help you, and because janitorial skill sets are pretty much universal among people–everyone can clean even though nobody really wants to do the job. NOT everybody can analyze DNA or protein structure.
Of course there will always be exceptions and inequities–it is not a perfect system, and as you well know no system in the world is theoretically perfect when it is put into practice, including socialism. However, this system DOES provide an accurate reward system for people based on the value of their contribution to the whole. Also, if you are truly for socialism, then it follows that you should be for a flat tax rate in your model form of gov’t, not a progressive tax rate that takes more from the owners. This progressive tax is contradictory to your statement that each man should have the right to the fruits of his labor, since by your position all men are equal in society and contribution, all men should pay the same into the system and be rewarded the same from the system. To do otherwise is to implicitly say that some men are more valuable in their contribution than others, and this runs directly counter to the socialist ideal.
However, this socialist ideal misses the point that in reality not all qualities are in equal demand or are equally represented throughout the population.