How Many Singles >90 for DL for Beginner

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
41

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

Well, this is in the powerlifting forum, so you get powerlifting squat advice and the reality is the fastest way to hit depth (shortest bar path) is to keep the knees from drifting too far forward. What’s more many people start to have issues/pain if the knee goes too far forward (this threshold is different for everyone) and if you want to squat heavy and you want it to help your deadlift then you want as much posterior chain involvement as possible thus you don’t want to let those knees come forward too much.[/quote]
Yeah, except that the OP isn’t a powerlifter, he isn’t using gear and he’s “doing” 5/3/1 which isn’t a powerlifting program.[/quote]
OK, I think you are just being contrary. What I said holds true for raw lifting as well. I am a raw lifter. What’s more the OP wants a big deadlift (powerlifters are the ones to ask then) and he isn’t really doing 531 at all go back to his post and look (it’s modified!).[/quote]
Actually I don’t think you get it… Lots (perhaps most) of powerlifters squat with a medium stance and usually have their knees come forward somewhat. As a relative beginner who isn’t planning to use gear its without a doubt the best way to squat. It also can be a very effective way to squat a lot of weight with gear. Here is yet another video where Siders (with straps down) beats Cartwright despite his knees coming forward on every rep.
http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/16643[/quote]
Good God man, read my post again. I said limit forward knee movement. That is what everyone who is talking to you is saying. Not totally eliminate (unless you can) the forward knee movement just limit it as much as possible. I agree with you that there is no arbitrary line that the knee shouldn’t go past as peoples stances are all different and so are their leverages. But what I said is true.

42

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

Well, this is in the powerlifting forum, so you get powerlifting squat advice and the reality is the fastest way to hit depth (shortest bar path) is to keep the knees from drifting too far forward. What’s more many people start to have issues/pain if the knee goes too far forward (this threshold is different for everyone) and if you want to squat heavy and you want it to help your deadlift then you want as much posterior chain involvement as possible thus you don’t want to let those knees come forward too much.[/quote]
Yeah, except that the OP isn’t a powerlifter, he isn’t using gear and he’s “doing” 5/3/1 which isn’t a powerlifting program.[/quote]
OK, I think you are just being contrary. What I said holds true for raw lifting as well. I am a raw lifter. What’s more the OP wants a big deadlift (powerlifters are the ones to ask then) and he isn’t really doing 531 at all go back to his post and look (it’s modified!).[/quote]
Actually I don’t think you get it… Lots (perhaps most) of powerlifters squat with a medium stance and usually have their knees come forward somewhat. As a relative beginner who isn’t planning to use gear its without a doubt the best way to squat. It also can be a very effective way to squat a lot of weight with gear. Here is yet another video where Siders (with straps down) beats Cartwright despite his knees coming forward on every rep.
http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/16643[/quote]
Good God man, read my post again. I said limit forward knee movement. That is what everyone who is talking to you is saying. Not totally eliminate (unless you can) the forward knee movement just limit it as much as possible. I agree with you that there is no arbitrary line that the knee shouldn’t go past as peoples stances are all different and so are their leverages. But what I said is true.[/quote]
Fair enough.
But, even striving to limit it as much as possible can be a mistake. There is a optimal amount of forward drift for every lifter based on stance, body proportions, bar position etc. Trying to reduce this to less than the optimal amount won’t help.

43
  1. I lift raw. No straps, no wraps, no belt (until now, at least). I’m doing a lot of core work though (power breathing, leg raises, working towards a front lever, and will start ab wheel with legs straight)

2. I want a huge (relative to my BW) DL (shooting for 550 @ ~170 for the next few years, and 660 before 35…). Not hurrying it because a healthy back in the long run is better than some pounds added a little quicker.

  1. I’ll probably start benching again after I can do external rotation with 30 lbs for 10 reps; same for internal rotations, and chins with 100 lbs for reps. Right now I’m just dipping, then I’ll do one arm push-ups (when strict they’re equal to at least a 1.2 BW bench). No, I don’t want advice on benching. My shoulders are congenitally weak (when I reached 154 on the bench they felt like they’ll tear apart, despite me doing at least as much back work, and not doing “guillotine” presses)

  2. For whatever friggin’ reason, I don’t squat right now. Let’s leave it at that. If I told you I don’t DL it would’ve probably been much more accepted. Maybe it’s not the best ever training program, but you’re acting like some squat police. I don’t have access to a rack right now, and that doesn’t bother me. I didn’t say squats are bad, unhealthy, useless etc. Just that right now I’m not doing them and that I like deadlifting very much, and care about my DL number more than about my squat.

DL twice a week is a killer…well, I’m doing [b]ONE[/b] (max) set to near failure/week with something between 75-85% 1 RM, a few singles @90% and SLDLs to the below the knee or speed pulls for assistance. And I’m not squatting. Somehow, I think that a normal human should be able to take it, but want some advice.

44

[quote]Sterneneisen wrote:

  1. I lift raw. No straps, no wraps, no belt (until now, at least). I’m doing a lot of core work though (power breathing, leg raises, working towards a front lever, and will start ab wheel with legs straight)

2. I want a huge (relative to my BW) DL (shooting for 550 @ ~175 for the next few years, and 660 before 35…). Not hurrying it because a healthy back in the long run is better than some pounds added a little quicker.

  1. I’ll probably start benching again after I can do external rotation with 30 lbs for 10 reps; same for internal rotations, and chins with 100 lbs for reps. Right now I’m just dipping, then I’ll do one arm push-ups (when strict they’re equal to at least a 1.2 BW bench). No, I don’t want advice on benching. My shoulders are congenitally weak (when I reached 154 on the bench they felt like they’ll tear apart, despite me doing at least as much back work, and not doing “guillotine” presses)

  2. For whatever friggin’ reason, I don’t squat right now. Let’s leave it at that. If I told you I don’t DL it would’ve probably been much more accepted. Maybe it’s not the best ever training program, but you’re acting like some squat police. I don’t have access to a rack right now, and that doesn’t bother me. I didn’t say squats are bad, unhealthy, useless etc. Just that right now I’m not doing them and that I like deadlifting very much, and care about my DL number more than about my squat.

DL twice a week is a killer…well, I’m doing [b]ONE[/b] (max) set to near failure/week with something between 75-85% 1 RM, a few singles @90% and SLDLs to the below the knee or speed pulls for assistance. And I’m not squatting. Somehow, I think that a normal human should be able to take it, but want some advice.[/quote]
Sorry, we hijacked your thread there for a bit.

I can’t pull real heavy (for me anyway) every week and continue to progress, but if you can more power to you. Some things that helped me that weren’t squatting: barbell hip thrusts, RDLs, Kroc Rows, Lunges front loaded or rear (if you can clean the weight), front squats (haha, I said no squats, but if you can clean then you can front squat and they could be really good for some upperback work), DB swings… I don’t know what all you’ve got access to, but that should be a pretty good start. Oh and zercher squats could be something to do without a squat rack.

45

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
5 3 1 is a powerlifting program . If you train the big three with intentions to lift in a meet , you are powerlifting . If you train them to get stronger in the big three you are powerlifting .

Just because Jim didn’t write a book specific to it yet, doesn’t mean you can’t use it for powerlifting . Scott Yard uses this approach as a raw lifter .[/quote]
You can use it for powerlifting, but that wasn’t its intent.

You can also do 3x10 with the intention of lifting in a meet.[/quote]

Did you ever personally talk to Jim? I do. You know he used this and competed don’t you ?

You’re arguing for the sake of arguing.

Now back to the original poster . We have a guy weighing around 170 who doesn’t want to squat but somehow thinks he will raise his deadlift 225 lbs and keep his weight where it’s currently at. It’s not happening .

He needs to eat, gain weight, and squats need to be a part of that . My son for example deadlifted 360 last year in his first meet . He weighed 132 lbs. He missed 400 at that meet and just missed 405 at 135 a week later .

He had wrestling season and did not train steady. His weight and strength were down. After 4 weeks of eating and lifting heavy his weight is at 154 lbs. He plans on competing at 148 this year. As long as his weight stays around there .

Point? He wasn’t going to get stronger without getting bigger, and squats were part of that . We’re not sure of his current maxes, but he’ll test in 8 weeks or so. He’s currently being trained by Josh Bryant and he’s sticking to his plan.

The plan? Squat day, and deadlift day. And assistance of course. Before the program started he did a 255 raw squat weighing 132. Josh had him do over 50 total reps with 185 lbs+ one workout. About 70% and more of his max.

That week he did two triples in the deadlift of 315 and 345, then 8 sets of four with 300lbs with a target of one minute breaks . This was from a training max of 380. A ton of pulling.

So, you want to increase your deadlift and you’re skinny? Do what the big guys say. Gain 30lbs and lift heavy stuff.

46

[quote]OBoile wrote:
So a video of Jim Wendler is “random”? Okay.
[/quote]

Unless Jim Wendler shrunk, grew his hair out, and grew a pair of tits, that’s not fucking Jim Wendler.

I said knees passed the toes, not move forward.

Oh really, let’s take a look:
Dave Tate (#935)
Josh Bryant (#909)
Marc Bartley (#1124)
Al Caslow a 165 pounder with a 886 pound squat (#910)
Ano Turtiainen (#1102)
Brian Carroll (#1145)
Brian Schwab (#825)
Chad Aichs (#1173)
Chad Smith (#800)
Steve Goggins (#1102)
Our very own Pegg (#915)
The Man Himself Jim Wendler (#1000)
Jeremy Frey (#1003.4)
Jo Jordan (#1003)
Josh McMillan (#865)
The Mayor Rhodes (#930)
Scott Yard (#1050)
Ted Toalston (#785)
Mr. Kroc Rows (#1003)

For the Girl:
Hannah Johnson (#450)
Molly Edwards (#415)

You’re right, no one can fucking squat at Elitefts…and I didn’t even put up the entire list. You should go in there sometime during an UGSS when they have all those retards that can’t squat and tell those fuckers like it is. THEY CAN SQUAT!

Did we say you shouldn’t? What are you supposed to let them just go limp? No, but over recruiting them isn’t going to help your squat, this isn’t body building this is power-lifting, back on your heels-ass out. As well mechanically it is the most advantageous for squatting for your knees to not go over your toes.

47

I’m 150, not 170. Also, I got my DL from <220 to 300 with almost no weight gain (I know this is not something to brag about and that the initial increase is due to neural factors, and I did gain a little on my hams and back).

Look, if an 110 lb indian can pull 550, Lamar Gant can pull 5 times bodyweight, and Tom Martin, 4.25 BW, I can still add a lot of poundage even though I might not add tons of weight on my frame. btw, I think a number of authors on this site said that while you can have a good DL at a light weight, the squat needs you to get bigger. (this is an answer to “gain weight to lift more”, I’m not saying I don’t eat or don’t want to gain weight)

And I don’t try to “keep my abz”. (note: so, we have this guy, he doesn’t refuse to eat, he DLs, does more back than chest, knows his current DL is worth shit between trained people…and he’s really dumb coz’ he ain’t squattin’…)

And as note: I mentioned I bought the book, as in “I have it and have read it”…

Jakerz, thanks for the answer.

Eisen

48

[quote]Sterneneisen wrote:
I’m 150, not 170. Also, I got my DL from <220 to 300 with almost no weight gain (I know this is not something to brag about and that the initial increase is due to neural factors, and I did gain a little on my hams and back).
Look, if an 110 lb indian can pull 550, Lamar Gant can pull 5 times bodyweight, and Tom Martin, 4.25 BW, I can still add a lot of poundage even though I might not add tons of weight on my frame. btw, I think a number of authors on this site said that while you can have a good DL at a light weight, the squat needs you to get bigger. (this is an answer to “gain weight to lift more”, I’m not saying I don’t eat or don’t want to gain weight)

And I don’t try to “keep my abz”. (note: so, we have this guy, he doesn’t refuse to eat, he DLs, does more back than chest, knows his current DL is worth shit between trained people…and he’s really dumb coz’ he ain’t squattin’…)

And as note: I mentioned I bought the book, as in “I have it and have read it”…

Jakerz, thanks for the answer.

Eisen[/quote]

You will not significant weight to your deadlift unless you add weight , I will give you a hint, you’re not Lamar Gant, the best deadlifter ever who also had a nice ole scoliotic which actually shortened his lockout to about knee level. Gant at one time held the world record for all three lifts simultaneously in the 132 class . If you’re not already pulling triple bodyweight or just shy , it’s never going to hAppen .

My son was pulling double bodyweight at nine years old, at 11 he pulled 190 weighing 70 lbs at westside barbell . Louie and amy coached him that day btw. He did 360 easy at 132, missing 400 just below his knees . He was 16 then and still is.

My point is no one takes a mediocre lift and somehow takes it to national level status without getting bigger . Jr is busting his hump and is outlifting you by a significant margin on weight alone . No one sees a almost doubling of their deadlift without getting bigger . Even adding 100 lbs to it will make it ehh in the 181s.

Sorry if I seem caustic but you’re not going to hit numbers like that unless you gain 30+ lbs ,

49

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
OBoile wrote:
So a video of Jim Wendler is “random”? Okay.

Unless Jim Wendler shrunk, grew his hair out, and grew a pair of tits, that’s not fucking Jim Wendler.

How about Jay Nera? His knees come forward too. Didn’t limit the weight on his back.

I said knees passed the toes, not move forward.

I’ve watched the “So you think you can squat” series. I’d be surprised if anyone at EliteFTS can squat as well as the two lifters in the videos above or the female olympic lifter?

Oh really, let’s take a look:
Dave Tate (#935)
Josh Bryant (#909)
Marc Bartley (#1124)
Al Caslow a 165 pounder with a 886 pound squat (#910)
Ano Turtiainen (#1102)
Brian Carroll (#1145)
Brian Schwab (#825)
Chad Aichs (#1173)
Chad Smith (#800)
Steve Goggins (#1102)
Our very own Pegg (#915)
The Man Himself Jim Wendler (#1000)
Jeremy Frey (#1003.4)
Jo Jordan (#1003)
Josh McMillan (#865)
The Mayor Rhodes (#930)
Scott Yard (#1050)
Ted Toalston (#785)
Mr. Kroc Rows (#1003)

For the Girl:
Hannah Johnson (#450)
Molly Edwards (#415)

You’re right, no one can fucking squat at Elitefts…and I didn’t even put up the entire list. You should go in there sometime during an UGSS when they have all those retards that can’t squat and tell those fuckers like it is. THEY CAN SQUAT!

Finally, I really think some people need to learn the difference between a wide stance, multi-ply squat done out of a monolift and a raw squat. You SHOULD be using your quads when you do a raw squat.
[/quote]

Did we say you shouldn’t? What are you supposed to let them just go limp? No, but over recruiting them isn’t going to help your squat, this isn’t body building this is power-lifting, back on your heels-ass out. As well mechanically it is the most advantageous for squatting for your knees to not go over your toes.[/quote]

  1. I posted a video of Jim earlier in this thread. His knees come forward.
  2. Congratulations on failing to grasp the simple fact that comparing numbers accross federations is useless.
  3. Can you show me any scientific evidence that a person’s foot size should determine how far their knees should come forward? Can you not admit that this is a stupid idea?

I’ll be the first to admit that Elite has some great lifters. Perhaps I should have said “on par” with. However, people here treat them like gods which isn’t the case. There are many world class lifters who don’t squat the way they do, don’t train “Westside” and have never even heard of anyone on your list.

50

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
5 3 1 is a powerlifting program . If you train the big three with intentions to lift in a meet , you are powerlifting . If you train them to get stronger in the big three you are powerlifting .

Just because Jim didn’t write a book specific to it yet, doesn’t mean you can’t use it for powerlifting . Scott Yard uses this approach as a raw lifter .[/quote]
You can use it for powerlifting, but that wasn’t its intent.

You can also do 3x10 with the intention of lifting in a meet.[/quote]

Did you ever personally talk to Jim? I do. You know he used this and competed don’t you ?

You’re arguing for the sake of arguing.

[/quote]
This will be my last comments on the issue.

  1. Jim had said repeatedly in his logs that he was not planning on doing another meet. He then did one as a spur of the moment type thing. 5/3/1 for powerlifting is coming out sometime in the future. 5/3/1 is simply a general strength program that some powerlifters are now using, not a specific powerlifting program. Like I said, you can do ANYTHING and then lift in a meet. That doesn’t make it a powerlifting program. Many people use 5/3/1 and will never step on a platform.

  2. I’m arguing because I’m right. Saying you want to minimize forward knee movement in all cases is wrong. Some people (I’ll even say most) will do better with less, some will do better with more. This is entirely individual base on build, stance, bar position etc. I’ve posted videos of numerous elite raw squatters with varying degrees of forward knee movement as evidence of this.

51

I know what Jim said and did because I personally know Jim . I was at his seminar at ironsport gym in Philly two months ago .

Him, and Rippetoe teach the squat the same way . They try to minimize forward movement of the knees . It doesn’t mean there is no movement . This is s teaching cue so lifters get their form down and use their hips properly . There is variance in stances, flexibility , and bone structure of course .

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
5 3 1 is a powerlifting program . If you train the big three with intentions to lift in a meet , you are powerlifting . If you train them to get stronger in the big three you are powerlifting .

Just because Jim didn’t write a book specific to it yet, doesn’t mean you can’t use it for powerlifting . Scott Yard uses this approach as a raw lifter .[/quote]
You can use it for powerlifting, but that wasn’t its intent.

You can also do 3x10 with the intention of lifting in a meet.[/quote]

Did you ever personally talk to Jim? I do. You know he used this and competed don’t you ?

You’re arguing for the sake of arguing.

[/quote]
This will be my last comments on the issue.

  1. Jim had said repeatedly in his logs that he was not planning on doing another meet. He then did one as a spur of the moment type thing. 5/3/1 for powerlifting is coming out sometime in the future. 5/3/1 is simply a general strength program that some powerlifters are now using, not a specific powerlifting program. Like I said, you can do ANYTHING and then lift in a meet. That doesn’t make it a powerlifting program. Many people use 5/3/1 and will never step on a platform.

  2. I’m arguing because I’m right. Saying you want to minimize forward knee movement in all cases is wrong. Some people (I’ll even say most) will do better with less, some will do better with more. This is entirely individual base on build, stance, bar position etc. I’ve posted videos of numerous elite raw squatters with varying degrees of forward knee movement as evidence of this.
    [/quote]

52

Well I’ll chime on in here.

OP: Squat. I pull decent - 3x BW hoping to get it up to 4x within the next 2 years and nothing has helped my deadlift more than squatting both in terms of my lockout and being able to support heavier weight on my back as well as from the floor. It’s also less taxing on the CNS and you can manage doing squat+deadlift in the same week whereas deadlifting twice a week is probably just going to lead to plateaus.

53

[quote]OBoile wrote:

  1. I posted a video of Jim earlier in this thread. His knees come forward.
    [/quote]

Yes, but not over his toes.

[quote]
2. Congratulations on failing to grasp the simple fact that comparing numbers accross federations is useless.[/quote]

Oh really, so a 1200 squat is some how less than a 716 squat? You don’t think someone that can almost double your guy can probably squat more than him in a belt and wraps?

Your guy doesn’t even shot his knees over his toes. There is reason why knees aren’t supposed to shot over the toes, because the weight goes onto the ball of the foot instead of staying on the heel.

I can show you common sense that when a knee shoots past the toe the weight shifts from their heel to the ball of their foot and the quads are over activated decreasing possible weight lifted.

[quote]
I’ll be the first to admit that Elite has some great lifters. Perhaps I should have said “on par” with. However, people here treat them like gods which isn’t the case. There are many world class lifters who don’t squat the way they do, don’t train “Westside” and have never even heard of anyone on your list.[/quote]

Oh you want to say “on par” well I just posted a dozen or two guys that squat more than your guy and two women that squat more than your girl…so that puts them above par. I don’t treat anyone like a god just because they can squat, but respect is due where respect is due.

I’m sure not everyone knows who Captain Kirk is, but that doesn’t matter. Respect is due for having the heaviest unequipped squat for an entire decade or more and still holds it. I can ask almost everyone in my college gym who Captain Kirk is and they’ll be thinking of Star Trek instead of the world record holder. What does training Westside have to do with shit, proper form is proper form.

54

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
5 3 1 is a powerlifting program . If you train the big three with intentions to lift in a meet , you are powerlifting . If you train them to get stronger in the big three you are powerlifting .

Just because Jim didn’t write a book specific to it yet, doesn’t mean you can’t use it for powerlifting . Scott Yard uses this approach as a raw lifter .[/quote]
You can use it for powerlifting, but that wasn’t its intent.

You can also do 3x10 with the intention of lifting in a meet.[/quote]

Did you ever personally talk to Jim? I do. You know he used this and competed don’t you ?

You’re arguing for the sake of arguing.

[/quote]
This will be my last comments on the issue.

  1. Jim had said repeatedly in his logs that he was not planning on doing another meet. He then did one as a spur of the moment type thing. 5/3/1 for powerlifting is coming out sometime in the future. 5/3/1 is simply a general strength program that some powerlifters are now using, not a specific powerlifting program. Like I said, you can do ANYTHING and then lift in a meet. That doesn’t make it a powerlifting program. Many people use 5/3/1 and will never step on a platform.

  2. I’m arguing because I’m right. Saying you want to minimize forward knee movement in all cases is wrong. Some people (I’ll even say most) will do better with less, some will do better with more. This is entirely individual base on build, stance, bar position etc. I’ve posted videos of numerous elite raw squatters with varying degrees of forward knee movement as evidence of this.
    [/quote]

You’re arguing because you want to. Your lack of knowledge is visible in the fact that you can’t recognize the strength/power-lifting principles which 5/3/1 is based on, and the reading comprehension to have remembered that Jim said that for the last chunk of his power-lifting career he was using the principles of 5/3/1…he said this in his book.

55

[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
Well I’ll chime on in here.

OP: Squat. I pull decent - 3x BW hoping to get it up to 4x within the next 2 years and nothing has helped my deadlift more than squatting both in terms of my lockout and being able to support heavier weight on my back as well as from the floor. It’s also less taxing on the CNS and you can manage doing squat+deadlift in the same week whereas deadlifting twice a week is probably just going to lead to plateaus.[/quote]

Funny thing about me getting older, it reversed . Squatting is more difficult overall . The soreness stays longer and it is darn difficult to loosen my legs up. And I stretch each day, foam roll, certified in ART for close to 13 years and so on.

Pulling, that got easier .

56

My son used 5 3 1 for his first meet. At raw 132 16/17 he did 245/155/360.

He gained 90 lbs in the squat , 75 in the bench , and 140 lbs in the deadlift . He started late March and his meet was 9/11. He gained 25 lbs of bodyweight . It worked well for him .

Right now he’s getting online coaching by Josh Bryant .

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]OBoile wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
5 3 1 is a powerlifting program . If you train the big three with intentions to lift in a meet , you are powerlifting . If you train them to get stronger in the big three you are powerlifting .

Just because Jim didn’t write a book specific to it yet, doesn’t mean you can’t use it for powerlifting . Scott Yard uses this approach as a raw lifter .[/quote]
You can use it for powerlifting, but that wasn’t its intent.

You can also do 3x10 with the intention of lifting in a meet.[/quote]

Did you ever personally talk to Jim? I do. You know he used this and competed don’t you ?

You’re arguing for the sake of arguing.

[/quote]
This will be my last comments on the issue.

  1. Jim had said repeatedly in his logs that he was not planning on doing another meet. He then did one as a spur of the moment type thing. 5/3/1 for powerlifting is coming out sometime in the future. 5/3/1 is simply a general strength program that some powerlifters are now using, not a specific powerlifting program. Like I said, you can do ANYTHING and then lift in a meet. That doesn’t make it a powerlifting program. Many people use 5/3/1 and will never step on a platform.

  2. I’m arguing because I’m right. Saying you want to minimize forward knee movement in all cases is wrong. Some people (I’ll even say most) will do better with less, some will do better with more. This is entirely individual base on build, stance, bar position etc. I’ve posted videos of numerous elite raw squatters with varying degrees of forward knee movement as evidence of this.
    [/quote]

You’re arguing because you want to. Your lack of knowledge is visible in the fact that you can’t recognize the strength/power-lifting principles which 5/3/1 is based on, and the reading comprehension to have remembered that Jim said that for the last chunk of his power-lifting career he was using the principles of 5/3/1…he said this in his book.[/quote]

57

Unless you are sitting back onto a box…the knees are going to have to come forward. Yes, if the knees travel forward too far acheiving proper depth will be a little bit more difficult although acheiving depth in a wide stance is much more difficult…if we are talking about true depth(hips BELOW top of knees… a lot of feds judge this loosely). So if your knee travels too far forward depth is difficult, and if your hips are too wide depth can be awkward… when trying to decide which style you prefer take your pick between potentially having sore knees in the future and having sore hips.

Also, when squatting close or narrow stance there is a definite HOLE that you hit in the bottom of the squat whereas when squatting wide depth isn’t as consistent in training or in competition(my opinion of course not applying to everyone).

As for the Elite FTS talk…those are all equipped numbers that people are quoting…they don’t post their raw numbers…because they are multi-ply lifters…so they don’t care to lift lighter (heavy)weights…they prefer extremely heavy weights…its just different…and they use a wide squat primarily because their squats and thus their movement patterns are designed around getting help out of their suits…when I squat equipped…I use a wide stance…

anyway, i didn’t even read this entire this thread…hope that helps clarify for some people.

58

And I’ll simply do the most intelligent thing that could be done… I’ll do a number of singles each week and see if I progress more than by not doing them. Also, to be clear, I’m a powerlifter, and I deadlift for both strength AND for deadlifting’s sake. And I bench for strength and for benching’s sake. (Long live coach Thibaudeau… keeping your shoulders back but NOT down is plain genius, and it feels a million times more ~natural~, at least for me. No more pain OR crackling in the shoulders.)

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[quote]Sterneneisen wrote:
And I’ll simply do the most intelligent thing that could be done… I’ll do a number of singles each week and see if I progress more than by not doing them. Also, to be clear, I’m a powerlifter, and I deadlift for both strength AND for deadlifting’s sake. And I bench for strength and for benching’s sake. (Long live coach Thibaudeau… keeping your shoulders back but NOT down is plain genius, and it feels a million times more ~natural~, at least for me. No more pain OR crackling in the shoulders.)[/quote]

congrats on making it through the flame war going on in your thread and still making coherent and well thought out posts…

I read the whole thread and I have two things for you:

  1. you don’t have a squat rack, so you can’t back squat- some people obviously can’t wrap their heads around that one and are arguing about knees and shit. You’re saying you’re training to improve your DL and power, so you MUST incorporate a squatting movement if you want to get stronger and more jacked-er. That’s the facts, there’s no way to get around SKWATTING!

so you have options here, what I recomment is goblet squats. They make you look like a badass in the gym and add serious strength to every single part of your body. go ass to grass with whatever stance you feel comfortable with. Go for 20 reps and start at the 105lb dumbbell. Here’s a video for your pleasure:

seriously, at the end of a 20-rep goblet squat set w/ a 130lb dumbbell, you will feel like you just climbed a mountain and fucked a chick.

You can also clean the weight up and do front squats like someone said, which will totally help you w/ the upper and lower back strength you need for a good DL. Overhead squats and jerks (possibly snatches) are something to look into also. You MUST find a way to do some sort of squat. If you’re doing pistols then you should be up for the challenge of doing a 20-rep set of goblet w/ the heaviest DB in your gym

#2

as for your bench, if you shoulders bother you DONT FUCKING DO DIPS! This will inevitably draw some flaming, but dips tear your shoulders apart and are simply not good for someone who has any shoulder issues whatsoever. Just think of the position you put yourself in at the bottom of a dip; it is the most disadvantageous position you can possibly put your shoulders in during a pressing movement. Stop the dips immediately if you ever want to bench heavy with the “congenital” issues you have. You are also a serious dumbass (no offense) for trying to do internal/external rotations w/ 30lbs. That is going out of your way to put FAR too much stress on your rotator cuff. You are begging for an injury doing shit like this. Seriously, just stop. I’m cringing thinking of it. Use the LIGHTEST weight possible for internal/external rotations- a light band is even better for the constant tension. Why would you make your poor rotator cuff muscles bear weight like that? They are meant to stabilize your shoulder, not bear weight directly. If you stop dips and these awfully heavy internal/external rotations, my bet is your shoulder pain will start to go away. Stop hurting yourself man.

PS the quote from Thib is good, and also the first thing anyone who benches learns. You might have technique issues w/ your bench also that need to be ironed out

60

What’s this keeping the shoulders back, but not down thing do? What’s it a cue for and how do you implement the cue?