I don’t like someone 's knee to drift forward excessively but sometimes there can be slight variations where there is some . I’d attempt to minimize it though .
[quote]Sterneneisen wrote:
@Brother Chris: - the knees aren’t supposed to go past the toes during a powerlifting squat due to the wide stance; otherwise it’s fine and good for the back
-
quoting “Hardgainer mag” (something old about which no one around here heard about - so even though it exists it was more of a joke) doesn’t mean I think I’m a hardgainer
-
squats help, but, taking a wild guess, wouldn’t DLs help more?
-
my 90% is much slower than my 85%. My 90% is probably as slow as Tom Martin’s 1RM (at least the first half…). No, something’s not alright. Also, 90% feels much heavier than 85%, and I think that’s also not right, so I’ve got to get used to heavy weights.
-
so yeah, it’s not 5/3/1. I’ve actually bought the book, so I know what it says. Ok, I’m using the periodization outlined in 5/3/1 and doing one max set/session, and assistance @~60% 1RM, not 5/3/1 itself. Better?
Ugh, please answer the question, don’t tell me I should squat. Yeah, squats are great, I might actually squat if I’ll decide to compete. Pistols are enough for now. But until now I’ve only one answer to the question of whether it looks like too much pulling in one week. Altough, I guess I can simply do this for a few months and see if my progress is better.
[/quote]
I’d do all your deadlifting on one day if you can. If you want to do some singles, maybe twice a cycle only do the minimum 5/3/1 reps and then do 2-3 heavy singles. The other day (that would be squat day) I’d do a bunch of “bodybuilder style” (reps in the 8-10 range) exercises. You could do the opposite style deadlift here (sumo vs. traditional) here, but I wouldn’t push it too hard. Romanian DLs would be a good option. Also do lots of things like lunges, pistols etc.
IMO DLs are the most draining exercise from a CNS and recovery perspective. Doing them twice a week would be tough.
[quote]tom63 wrote:
I don’t like someone 's knee to drift forward excessively but sometimes there can be slight variations where there is some . I’d attempt to minimize it though . [/quote]
Why? Assuming it is not extreme, these are raw squats. Knees coming forward is a natural part of the movement.
Because the more they drift forward , the harder it will be to achieve proper depth . Check out some videos of mike bridges . He had excellent form with no forward knee movement . But some is no big deal .
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Because the more they drift forward , the harder it will be to achieve proper depth . Check out some videos of mike bridges . He had excellent form with no forward knee movement . But some is no big deal . [/quote]
??? Unless the movement is extreme, this simply isn’t relevant.
Knees past toes, but still very deep.
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Because the more they drift forward , the harder it will be to achieve proper depth . Check out some videos of mike bridges . He had excellent form with no forward knee movement . But some is no big deal . [/quote]
??? Unless the movement is extreme, this simply isn’t relevant.
Knees past toes, but still very deep.[/quote]
Well, this is in the powerlifting forum, so you get powerlifting squat advice and the reality is the fastest way to hit depth (shortest bar path) is to keep the knees from drifting too far forward. What’s more many people start to have issues/pain if the knee goes too far forward (this threshold is different for everyone) and if you want to squat heavy and you want it to help your deadlift then you want as much posterior chain involvement as possible thus you don’t want to let those knees come forward too much.
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I said move past your toe, not move forward. They will move forward, but should stay behind your toes. Which the kid said he’s doing, so I was wondering how that was a problem.[/quote]
Whether the knee moves past the toe or not doesn’t matter. There isn’t some arbitrary line (based on foot size no less) that determines if the knee has moved too far forward or not.[/quote]
Yeah, but unless he’s sporting some size 4’s the farther the knee goes out the more sheer pressure is placed on the joint, the more quad recruitment, and the less poundages on the back.
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Because the more they drift forward , the harder it will be to achieve proper depth . Check out some videos of mike bridges . He had excellent form with no forward knee movement . But some is no big deal . [/quote]
??? Unless the movement is extreme, this simply isn’t relevant.
Knees past toes, but still very deep.[/quote]
You’re really going to pull a video of a chick doing an Olympic squat with semi-okay form and use that as your evidence? Do you also suggest that his knees come in as he ascends in the squat, as the female so kindly demonstrated for us in our video? And why would a power-lifter have to go that deep? Last time I checked they required parallel not cheek to heel.
If you want squat technique, how about you go look at the “So you think you can squat” series and stop pulling random videos off the Internet.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I said move past your toe, not move forward. They will move forward, but should stay behind your toes. Which the kid said he’s doing, so I was wondering how that was a problem.[/quote]
Whether the knee moves past the toe or not doesn’t matter. There isn’t some arbitrary line (based on foot size no less) that determines if the knee has moved too far forward or not.[/quote]
Yeah, but unless he’s sporting some size 4’s the farther the knee goes out the more sheer pressure is placed on the joint, the more quad recruitment, and the less poundages on the back.
[/quote]
In many cases this simply isn’t true. These are raw squats, not multi-ply sumo stance squats.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Because the more they drift forward , the harder it will be to achieve proper depth . Check out some videos of mike bridges . He had excellent form with no forward knee movement . But some is no big deal . [/quote]
??? Unless the movement is extreme, this simply isn’t relevant.
Knees past toes, but still very deep.[/quote]
You’re really going to pull a video of a chick doing an Olympic squat with semi-okay form and use that as your evidence? Do you also suggest that his knees come in as he ascends in the squat, as the female so kindly demonstrated for us in our video? And why would a power-lifter have to go that deep? Last time I checked they required parallel not cheek to heel.
If you want squat technique, how about you go look at the “So you think you can squat” series and stop pulling random videos off the Internet.[/quote]
So a video of Jim Wendler is “random”? Okay.
How about Jay Nera? His knees come forward too. Didn’t limit the weight on his back.
How about Suzanne Hartwig-Gary? Her knees come forward too - well past her toes, yet she squats almost triple bodyweight and is a former world champ.
I’ve watched the “So you think you can squat” series. I’d be surprised if anyone at EliteFTS can squat as well as the two lifters in the videos above or the female olympic lifter (do you have any videos of you doing 300x10?)
Finally, I really think some people need to learn the difference between a wide stance, multi-ply squat done out of a monolift and a raw squat. You SHOULD be using your quads when you do a raw squat.
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Because the more they drift forward , the harder it will be to achieve proper depth . Check out some videos of mike bridges . He had excellent form with no forward knee movement . But some is no big deal . [/quote]
??? Unless the movement is extreme, this simply isn’t relevant.
Knees past toes, but still very deep.[/quote]
Well, this is in the powerlifting forum, so you get powerlifting squat advice and the reality is the fastest way to hit depth (shortest bar path) is to keep the knees from drifting too far forward. What’s more many people start to have issues/pain if the knee goes too far forward (this threshold is different for everyone) and if you want to squat heavy and you want it to help your deadlift then you want as much posterior chain involvement as possible thus you don’t want to let those knees come forward too much.[/quote]
Yeah, except that the OP isn’t a powerlifter, he isn’t using gear and he’s “doing” 5/3/1 which isn’t a powerlifting program.
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
Well, this is in the powerlifting forum, so you get powerlifting squat advice and the reality is the fastest way to hit depth (shortest bar path) is to keep the knees from drifting too far forward. What’s more many people start to have issues/pain if the knee goes too far forward (this threshold is different for everyone) and if you want to squat heavy and you want it to help your deadlift then you want as much posterior chain involvement as possible thus you don’t want to let those knees come forward too much.[/quote]
Yeah, except that the OP isn’t a powerlifter, he isn’t using gear and he’s “doing” 5/3/1 which isn’t a powerlifting program.[/quote]
OK, I think you are just being contrary. What I said holds true for raw lifting as well. I am a raw lifter. What’s more the OP wants a big deadlift (powerlifters are the ones to ask then) and he isn’t really doing 531 at all go back to his post and look (it’s modified!).
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Because the more they drift forward , the harder it will be to achieve proper depth . Check out some videos of mike bridges . He had excellent form with no forward knee movement . But some is no big deal . [/quote]
??? Unless the movement is extreme, this simply isn’t relevant.
Knees past toes, but still very deep.[/quote]
You’re really going to pull a video of a chick doing an Olympic squat with semi-okay form and use that as your evidence? Do you also suggest that his knees come in as he ascends in the squat, as the female so kindly demonstrated for us in our video? And why would a power-lifter have to go that deep? Last time I checked they required parallel not cheek to heel.
If you want squat technique, how about you go look at the “So you think you can squat” series and stop pulling random videos off the Internet.[/quote]
So a video of Jim Wendler is “random”? Okay.
How about Jay Nera? His knees come forward too. Didn’t limit the weight on his back.
How about Suzanne Hartwig-Gary? Her knees come forward too - well past her toes, yet she squats almost triple bodyweight and is a former world champ.
I’ve watched the “So you think you can squat” series. I’d be surprised if anyone at EliteFTS can squat as well as the two lifters in the videos above or the female olympic lifter (do you have any videos of you doing 300x10?)
Finally, I really think some people need to learn the difference between a wide stance, multi-ply squat done out of a monolift and a raw squat. You SHOULD be using your quads when you do a raw squat.
[/quote]
This is just ignorant (the part about EliteFTS).
i agree with jakerz, on raw squatting your knees have to come forward, the narrower the stance the more this will happen, it’s just how it is, however the goal is to decrease this as much as possible, of course different people have different leverages. i squat pretty wide(raw) and my knees hardly come forward, but this combination of things makes my squat much better than my dead, in fact my meet goal is a raw 700lb squat at 198 next month, and i already had the highest 198 raw squat last year. jay nera also uses a more dive bomb type squat, which can also add to a slighlty more forward lean as opposed to a slower and wider decent, he’s using his slight knee bend for rebound, however he is very young and doesn’t bother his knees so far. if you look at the best raw squatters though(male) there is a very slight knee bend forward, it is decreased as much as possible. it’s not real fair to compare females in this arguement though, sometimes you have to look at the absolute weight and not the relative weight. also if you look at a lot of older lifters, they tend to lift equipped allowing them to sit back and not concentrate the torque on the knee.
and you do realize that most of the sponsored lifters on elite have some of the highest lifts equipped and raw right? and how much strength is needed for 1000lb equipped squat?
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Because the more they drift forward , the harder it will be to achieve proper depth . Check out some videos of mike bridges . He had excellent form with no forward knee movement . But some is no big deal . [/quote]
??? Unless the movement is extreme, this simply isn’t relevant.
Knees past toes, but still very deep.[/quote]
You’re really going to pull a video of a chick doing an Olympic squat with semi-okay form and use that as your evidence? Do you also suggest that his knees come in as he ascends in the squat, as the female so kindly demonstrated for us in our video? And why would a power-lifter have to go that deep? Last time I checked they required parallel not cheek to heel.
If you want squat technique, how about you go look at the “So you think you can squat” series and stop pulling random videos off the Internet.[/quote]
So a video of Jim Wendler is “random”? Okay.
How about Jay Nera? His knees come forward too. Didn’t limit the weight on his back.
How about Suzanne Hartwig-Gary? Her knees come forward too - well past her toes, yet she squats almost triple bodyweight and is a former world champ.
I’ve watched the “So you think you can squat” series. I’d be surprised if anyone at EliteFTS can squat as well as the two lifters in the videos above or the female olympic lifter (do you have any videos of you doing 300x10?)
Finally, I really think some people need to learn the difference between a wide stance, multi-ply squat done out of a monolift and a raw squat. You SHOULD be using your quads when you do a raw squat.
[/quote]
This is just ignorant (the part about EliteFTS).[/quote]
Actually the opposite is true. Nera is the RUM champ. No one at Elite can say that. Hartwig-Gary is a world champ (in a federation that has BY FAR the largest international representation). No one at Elite can say that either. She’s also a former RUM champ.
So is mike bridges, who was ed coan before ed coan was himself . Try 800+ lbs at 181. With early 80s crap gear and wraps . At the ipf worlds one year his 181 total would have won the 198s, 220s, 242s, and would have finished 2nd at 275 and shw.
He was squatting 4.5 times his weight in primitive gear .
Learn some history and learn some A&P and biomechanics . I’ve been to westside, taken 5-6 elite seminars and had Jim help me with my squat . They all teach you the same . There might be some more forward drift with a closer stance , but they still try to minimize it.
You’re just arguing to be contrary . Did you ever talk to these guys ? Coan? Elite guys? Westside guys and Louie ? I have.
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
[quote]OBoile wrote:
[quote]jakerz96 wrote:
Well, this is in the powerlifting forum, so you get powerlifting squat advice and the reality is the fastest way to hit depth (shortest bar path) is to keep the knees from drifting too far forward. What’s more many people start to have issues/pain if the knee goes too far forward (this threshold is different for everyone) and if you want to squat heavy and you want it to help your deadlift then you want as much posterior chain involvement as possible thus you don’t want to let those knees come forward too much.[/quote]
Yeah, except that the OP isn’t a powerlifter, he isn’t using gear and he’s “doing” 5/3/1 which isn’t a powerlifting program.[/quote]
OK, I think you are just being contrary. What I said holds true for raw lifting as well. I am a raw lifter. What’s more the OP wants a big deadlift (powerlifters are the ones to ask then) and he isn’t really doing 531 at all go back to his post and look (it’s modified!).[/quote]
Actually I don’t think you get it… Lots (perhaps most) of powerlifters squat with a medium stance and usually have their knees come forward somewhat. As a relative beginner who isn’t planning to use gear its without a doubt the best way to squat. It also can be a very effective way to squat a lot of weight with gear. Here is yet another video where Siders (with straps down) beats Cartwright despite his knees coming forward on every rep.
http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/node/16643
5 3 1 is a powerlifting program . If you train the big three with intentions to lift in a meet , you are powerlifting . If you train them to get stronger in the big three you are powerlifting .
Just because Jim didn’t write a book specific to it yet, doesn’t mean you can’t use it for powerlifting . Scott Yard uses this approach as a raw lifter .
[quote]tom63 wrote:
So is mike bridges, who was ed coan before ed coan was himself . Try 800+ lbs at 181. With early 80s crap gear and wraps . At the ipf worlds one year his 181 total would have won the 198s, 220s, 242s, and would have finished 2nd at 275 and shw.
He was squatting 4.5 times his weight in primitive gear .
Learn some history and learn some A&P and biomechanics . I’ve been to westside, taken 5-6 elite seminars and had Jim help me with my squat . They all teach you the same . There might be some more forward drift with a closer stance , but they still try to minimize it.
You’re just arguing to be contrary . Did you ever talk to these guys ? Coan? Elite guys? Westside guys and Louie ? I have.
[/quote]
Nowhere did I say excessive forward knee movement is good. Also, nowhere did I say it was the only way. I simply pointed out that someone’s knees going forward is FINE and that arbitrarily deciding that the toes is the limit is stupid.
By the way, Coan’s knees come forward too
[quote]tom63 wrote:
5 3 1 is a powerlifting program . If you train the big three with intentions to lift in a meet , you are powerlifting . If you train them to get stronger in the big three you are powerlifting .
Just because Jim didn’t write a book specific to it yet, doesn’t mean you can’t use it for powerlifting . Scott Yard uses this approach as a raw lifter .[/quote]
You can use it for powerlifting, but that wasn’t its intent.
You can also do 3x10 with the intention of lifting in a meet.