Harry Potter (Contains Spoilers)

Off Topic
41

[quote]LocoComoUnZorro wrote:
No, you’re quite right about what was said about the horcruxes Lucasa. It does not state that it makes one more evil. However I understand it to be the darkest of the Dark Arts and therefore is only done by evil wizards. And when it says that more horcruxes made means you become less and less human, I see that as becoming more and more animalistic, which can be considered more evil, as long as the mind is still at the human level. I just don’t see the creation of horcruxes as something any good wizard could or would do.[/quote]

Agreed, Dumbledore makes no mention of “the evil” associated with horcruxes aside from murder, just less and less human. Slughorn says that it can only be done via a sumpremely evil act, murder. Dumbldore’s a great guy, but;

  • He defeated the Dark Wizard Grindelwald in 1945 (so his card says). What defeated means is anyone’s guess, but I don’t think he got him with a charm.

  • His threats, though sugarcoated, are rather pointed:

“Don’t be silly, Dawlish. I’m sure you are an excellent Auror, I seem to remember you achieved ‘Outstanding’ in all your N.E.W.T.s, but if you attempt to ? er ? ‘bring me in’ by force, I will have to hurt you.”

  • I don’t think any ‘good wizards’ would know/need to know how to break out of Azkaban:
    “I could break out, of course, but what a waste of time, and frankly I can think of a whole host of things I’d rather be doing.”

  • He’s known to compromise his own principles:
    “I seem to remember telling you both that I would have to expel you if you broke any more school rules,” said Dumbledore. Ron opened his mouth in horror. “Which goes to show that the best of us must sometimes eat our words.”

  • And Dumbledore is always described as illuminating a room, radiating energy, and emmanating warmth.

As for Fawkes, we all know about his role in the CoC, but;

'In the fourth book, Dumbledore sends a silvery shape ‘like a ghostly bird’ to summon Hagrid when Krum is found stunned. This is his Patronus, a Phoenix as confirmed by J.K. Rowling.

In the fifth book, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, Fawkes is a special part of the Order, a phoenix himself. At Dumbledore’s office, in the night Harry sees Mr. Weasley being bitten by a snake (Voldemort’s snake, Nagini), Dumbledore asks Fawkes to advise him if Umbridge goes to the office.

Later in the same book, during the confrontation between Voldemort and Dumbledore, Fawkes presumably saves Dumbledore’s life by “swallowing” an Avada Kedavra curse from Voldemort. Fawkes then bursts into flame and falls to the floor, though not dead.

Furthermore, his colours are red and gold, and these are Gryffindor house’s colours. Some fans believe that this could not be a coincidence as the author, J. K. Rowling, doesn’t use similarities without specific meaning. Some fans have hypothesized that it is Godric Gryffindor’s phoenix, however, in an interview J.K. Rowling said that Fawkes was never owned by anyone except Dumbledore.

Fawkes sings “The Phoenix Lament” and disappears from Hogwarts after Albus Dumbledore’s death in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince.'- Wikipedia

-I’m beginning to feel like RSU

42

[quote]lucasa wrote:
Dumbldore’s a great guy, but;

  • He defeated the Dark Wizard Grindelwald in 1945 (so his card says). What defeated means is anyone’s guess, but I don’t think he got him with a charm.
    [/quote]

Defeating (and killing) an evil wizard is a supremely evil act? Hmm.

He’s a powerful wizard. He doesn’t have to take any guff.

Right. And those that want to protect their privacy must have something to hide, right? (not to bring politics into this, but…)

Don’t you think that’s a bit of a stretch? Do you think expelling them was a matter of going back on his “principles,” or perhaps, as he said, just eating his own words?

He’s powerful.

I think those examples certainly serve to illustrate the great affection that Fawkes and Dumbledore have for each other, but I don’t think they prove that Dumbledore made Fawkes into some sort of horcrux. Perhaps there is some other magical device (other than a horcrux) that we haven’t heard of yet, but I think Dumbledore’s gone. I don’t think he’s coming back.

43

If Dumbledore doesnt’ still play a role in book seven I’m going to be pissed.

All of the previous headmasters still hung in portraits in the headmasters office and there D-Dore should be as well. It was stated in previous books that Harry walked into Dumbledore’s office and found him conversing with previous headmasters, etc.

And in Book six why the fuck was the prime minister of Britain even included in the beginning? Only to introduce Scridgemore? To convey the severity of the damage the Death Eaters were doing?

Either way I figured there would be more dialogue with the Prime Minister but the book completely abandoned that story line…

GAINER

44

[quote]elevationgain wrote:
All of the previous headmasters still hung in portraits in the headmasters office and there D-Dore should be as well. It was stated in previous books that Harry walked into Dumbledore’s office and found him conversing with previous headmasters, etc.
[/quote]

He was, in fact, hanging on the wall when they went back into DD’s office after his death. The portrait version of him was slumbering.

JK said that this was a scene that she wanted to include in every book since book one (minus Scridgemore, I assume), but it never fit in. I suppose she thought it would fit in this time.

Agreed… that was sort of weak. It was also weak in the Order of the Phoenix that Harry got that mirror from Sirius, and plum forgot all about it when he needed to contact Sirius toward the end. Then whoops, better make him pull it out at the end of the book!

45

You know I’ve never read a story that I cared about so much and wanted to change events that upset me and so forth, as much as Harry Potter. It’s almost as if I consider the story to be real, and it makes a difference to the rest of my life what happens.

So what do you guys think is going to happen to Malfoy in the next book? What role will he play, good or evil? Might he even end up assisting Harry in the final attack against Voldemort?

And, how significant a role will Ginny play? She’s a fiery type, so she has a good chance of forcing herself upon Harry’s adventure. But what will become of her if she does? I wouldn’t put it past JK to have her mercilessly killed. Her death might even serve as a source of power for Harry, that might create enough hatred in him to be able to perform the Killing curse.

I don’t think Hermione or Ron would die though, they’re just too central.

46

I’m assuming Malfoy will be inconsequential, I mean, Snape had to follow through with the unbreakable vow because Malfoy was too big of a pussy.

He will be a tool, and that’s it… The real enemy within Hogwarts (Snape) has been identified so I see no real role for Malfoy besides being a failure…

Course what the fuck do I know, I thought the Half Blooded Prince was a Longbottom…

GAINER

47

Harry has a spell over him and his aunt’s house that says that as long as he lives there once per year Voldemort can’t find hime. I’m wonder if this is similar/same as the spell that is on the Black house in TOoTP and also used by the Potters to keep them hidden from Voldemort. If this is the case, there must be someone keeping the secret for Harry. I have wondered if this is Snape. That would explain why Dumbledore trusts him so much. If he has not given Harry up then Dumbledore knows for sure which side he is on. Could it be that if Snape were keeping the secret of Harry’s location, and if he were to die instead of Dumbledore, that Harry could be found by Voldemort. Maybe this is why Hagrid overheard Snape and Dumbledore aruing by the forest. Dumbledore said something to the effect of “You said you were going to do it and you are going to do it.” and Snape said “Maybe I don’t want to do it anymore.”

Also I am led to believe that Snape was trying to give Harry last minute instructions when fleeing Hogwarts. He was basically trying to tell him to practice Occlumancy(sp) and learn to do his spells silently or he would not be able to defeat Voldemort. I wouldn’t be surprised if Snape comes to Harry, Ron and/or Hermionne’s(sp) aid at sometime in the book, especially during the conflict with Voldemort. I also wouldn’t surprise me if he tried to contact Harry or a member(s) of the Order to explain what has happened.

48

[quote]nephorm wrote:

Defeating (and killing) an evil wizard is a supremely evil act? Hmm.[/quote]

-Slughorn described murder as a supremely evil act to a student who asked about horcruxes. Murder being the key to a horcrux, not intent, victim, or method. Quite conceivably he didn’t have Dumbledore and Grindelwald in mind, or Harry and Volde, or Dumbledore, Malfoy, and Snape.

[quote]
He’s a powerful wizard. He doesn’t have to take any guff.[/quote]

Taking guff and threatening menial officers of the law are two quite different things.

[quote]
Right. And those that want to protect their privacy must have something to hide, right? (not to bring politics into this, but…)[/quote]

This is non sequitur. Someone who wants privacy is assumed innocent until proven guilty. Someone who is breaking out of prison is assumed guilty (politics aside). If you assume you can break out, you have to assume that you’re in there in the first place. See below.

[quote]
Don’t you think that’s a bit of a stretch? Do you think expelling them was a matter of going back on his “principles,” or perhaps, as he said, just eating his own words?[/quote]

I agree, the one example is a stretch, but he constantly defies authority (justifiably) bending and breaking his own and others rules virtually at whim. This, combined with the threats, make me think of him more as a Dirty Harry than a Joe Friday kind of good guy. In “Dirty Harry” before going to drop off a ransom, Harry tapes a switchblade to his leg and his C.O. says it’s a shame a cop should know how to use a weapon like that. It’s a shame that Dumbledore should have to know how to break out of Azkaban.

Agreed.

[quote]
I think those examples certainly serve to illustrate the great affection that Fawkes and Dumbledore have for each other, but I don’t think they prove that Dumbledore made Fawkes into some sort of horcrux. Perhaps there is some other magical device (other than a horcrux) that we haven’t heard of yet, but I think Dumbledore’s gone. I don’t think he’s coming back.[/quote]

I think I said it before, but maybe I wasn’t clear enough. I’m 95% sure Dumbledore’s dead and I honestly believe that his return would most probably blow worse than the Matrix sequels. Everyone I talk to is (presumably much like yourself) incredulous that I’m not 100% certain. All I’m saying is that these facts as a whole keep me from being 100% certain. After all, we do have Reloaded and Revolutions (Sorry if I’m offending those who liked the sequels, but the popular opinion is that they really did blow). I’m just staking my claim to being 5% right if he is, in fact, not dead. Feel free to call me out if I’m 5% wrong when the time comes.

49

[quote]Olympiclfter wrote:
Harry has a spell over him and his aunt’s house that says that as long as he lives there once per year Voldemort can’t find hime. I’m wonder if this is similar/same as the spell that is on the Black house in TOoTP and also used by the Potters to keep them hidden from Voldemort. If this is the case, there must be someone keeping the secret for Harry. I have wondered if this is Snape. That would explain why Dumbledore trusts him so much. If he has not given Harry up then Dumbledore knows for sure which side he is on. Could it be that if Snape were keeping the secret of Harry’s location, and if he were to die instead of Dumbledore, that Harry could be found by Voldemort. Maybe this is why Hagrid overheard Snape and Dumbledore aruing by the forest. Dumbledore said something to the effect of “You said you were going to do it and you are going to do it.” and Snape said “Maybe I don’t want to do it anymore.”

Also I am led to believe that Snape was trying to give Harry last minute instructions when fleeing Hogwarts. He was basically trying to tell him to practice Occlumancy(sp) and learn to do his spells silently or he would not be able to defeat Voldemort. I wouldn’t be surprised if Snape comes to Harry, Ron and/or Hermionne’s(sp) aid at sometime in the book, especially during the conflict with Voldemort. I also wouldn’t surprise me if he tried to contact Harry or a member(s) of the Order to explain what has happened.[/quote]

Actually, the spell encasted upon Harry and Uncle Vernon’s house is different from the one cast upon the Black residence. Black’s house was under the same spell as Harry Potter’s parent’s house, which involved having a Secret Keeper who would keep the house undetectable. Harry is actually protected by his mothers sacrifice to save his life. As long as Harry lives with his mother’s blood, he is protected by his mothers spell, because it was created with love, the power about which the Dark Lord knows not, the one power Dumbledore says is more powerful than the Dark Arts. It is not that Voldemort could not find the residence if he wanted to. He would not be able to penetrate it or harm Harry, I believe.

So, because of this, I don’t believe Snape has anything to do with that. The thing he was supposed to do must be something else.

50

This is an interesting discussion.

I am really quite anxious to find out what Snape is up to. I really liked the Dumbledore murder scene in the book not because of the murder but because of Snape’s swift action. He came in, he saw what was going on, he killed without any hesitation, he swept everyone out of there, he was gone.

I thought that was very nicely done. No monkeying around, just pure business.

Snape is a tough one to figure out. He he has always seemed to be up to no good, but it’s always turned out that he was actually fighting the good fight. So now has he shown his true colours, or has Rowling just continued the pattern, where it will turn out he was doing something good yet again.

Snape is clearly a very powerful wizard with a lot of knowledge of both dark arts and potions, his Half Blood Prince writings make that very clear. But thinking about it, if he was really a bad guy, wouldn’t he have used some of his dark genius to harm Harry’s father back when they were still in school?

I never considered that part of LV’s soul may be in Harry himself. That would make for a very interesting climax.

“Snogging” is just normal British speak, just as normal as “necking” or “making out” or whatever would be here in North America. Where’s the annoying part?

The word that always confuses me for a second is “revising” which the Brit use where we’d say “studying”.

51

I strongly believe that Snape is on the good side. Dumbledore sacrificed himself- here are my reasons-

He stunned and froze Harry under the invisibility cloak so that Harry could not intervene in anyway, or help in any way… He talked down Lucius until Snape could get there and let Snape kill him… You do not think that Dumbledore, the most powerful wizard of all time, who although sickly, could not summon his wand from Lucius do you?

It was a sacrifice for the good of the order.

52

There are a lot of very interesting ideas in this thread, but there’s one that nobody’s mentioned so far. Fawkes is a phoenix. From mythology it’s known that the phoenix rises from it’s own ashes–it rises from the dead. Harry saw Fawkes flying into Dumbledore’s funeral pyre. The horcrux may be a method for a wizard to live forever, but it may not be the only one. Perhaps the phoenix can use it’s resurrection power to bring Dumbledore back.

Remember also that Snape is a potions master, and Dumbledore was becoming increasingly ill from the potion he drank. Could it be that Snape recognized the symptoms and knew that Dumbledore was dying anyway? Dumbledore must have known what that potion was going to do to him (otherwise how would he have known to tell Harry to force him to drink it all). He could have known that it was going to kill him, and the whole Snape-murder scene could have been staged to try to draw Voldemort out. A stretch I know, but it wouldn’t be the first.

53

[quote]Nick M wrote:
Perhaps the phoenix can use it’s resurrection power to bring Dumbledore back.
[/quote]

I hope not… JKR said that she thought it was important to establish rules for the world, and that one rule that was very important was that once someone was dead, they would stay dead. So, for example, there’s no chance of Harry’s parents coming back. So unless he did something to preserve himself beforehand, he’s gone. It would be disappointing, since it would really be a deus ex machina to bring him back a book later with some spell we’d never heard of before. It was fine with Voldemort precisely because we started the series in the strange situation of having a supposedly dead wizard wreaking havoc.

54

[quote]lucasa wrote:
-Slughorn described murder as a supremely evil act to a student who asked about horcruxes. Murder being the key to a horcrux, not intent, victim, or method. Quite conceivably he didn’t have Dumbledore and Grindelwald in mind, or Harry and Volde, or Dumbledore, Malfoy, and Snape.
[/quote]

Murder is generally accepted to be malicious. A policeman who shoots someone intending to do harm to others did not murder the perpetrator. He killed him, but he didn’t murder him.

Dumbledore had an important job to do, he couldn’t be bothered with their petty politics. I don’t think that allegiance to politics is an ethical obligation.

Fair enough. Poor example. How about this: I go to the library to look up nuclear weapons. I don’t plan on building any, I don’t plan on working on any, I’m just naturally curious. Or even better: I went to school to study physics, and I learned a ton about nuclear energy. And I happen to be clever enough to use this knowledge to create a nuclear bomb, were I so inclined. Or I am a locksmith, and know how to pick locks for legitimate purposes. It just so happens that I could also use this skill to break into a house if I had to. See why I take issue with your argument? I actually find it a rather scary argument, if we were to generalize it into the real world.

But that doesn’t mean that he’d want to break off a piece of his soul.

[quote]
I think I said it before, but maybe I wasn’t clear enough. I’m 95% sure Dumbledore’s dead and I honestly believe that his return would most probably blow worse than the Matrix sequels.[/quote]

Fair enough.

55

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Nick M wrote:
Perhaps the phoenix can use it’s resurrection power to bring Dumbledore back.

I hope not… JKR said that she thought it was important to establish rules for the world, and that one rule that was very important was that once someone was dead, they would stay dead. So, for example, there’s no chance of Harry’s parents coming back. So unless he did something to preserve himself beforehand, he’s gone. It would be disappointing, since it would really be a deus ex machina to bring him back a book later with some spell we’d never heard of before. It was fine with Voldemort precisely because we started the series in the strange situation of having a supposedly dead wizard wreaking havoc.[/quote]

I agree. Personally, I thought it took a lot of guts for JKR to kill off Sirius and then Dumbledore. While I think it would make a more powerful story to have Harry end it on his own without Dumbledore’s help, I can’t help but think there was some significance to Harry seeing Fawkes at the moment that Dumbledore’s casket burst into flames. And has anyone explained how the casket burst into flames in the first place? Since it took just about everyone by surprise, I don’t think that happens at every wizard funeral.

56

I aggree, I would hate to see Dumbledore come back. I love Dumbledore, I just think it would cheapen the story. He has done enough in my opinion. It’s time for Harry to come into his own. I don’t give much creadance to the funeral pyre. I figured it was intentional. Even Hagrid can start a fire.
I think Snape may be a good guy, evidenced by the argument that Hagrid over heard between Snape and Dumbledore. Snape said that he couldn’t do it, if I recall correctly. We just didn’t and still don’t know what he is talking about.
I think that one of the two evil ones, Snape or Malfoy, will turn out to be ultimately good in the end.

57

  1. If Dumbledore isn’t really dead, then a great moment in literature has been spoiled.

  2. Concerning Severus Snape…
    When Bellatrix and Narcissa are speaking to Snape in Chapter 2 about “the plan,” and how they don’t know if they should talk to him about it, he convinces them that he already knows about it and can be included in their discussion. Yet he says absolutely nothing that suggests he actually knows any details. You can say that’s JKR not revealing “the plan,” but he does the same with Malfoy: he says he can help if he’s told the details, but he fails to get Draco to divulge any. Snape is NOT that deep in Voldemort’s confidence.

The Unbreakable Vow is taken (assuming there’s truly no way around it) to convince Narcissa and Bellatrix that he is truly on their side. All he really had to do (if he WERE on their side) is agree to help Draco. He swears the Vow to really bowl them over with his loyalty, knowing that he’s placing himself in danger. He’s THAT devoted to Dumbledore’s side.

Dumbledore makes him Defense Against the Dark Arts instructor (finally!), KNOWING that it means Snape won’t be at the school after that year. He clearly explains that curse to Harry. Dumbledore had a larger plan by which Snape would be able to leave the school and be a full-time mole among the Death Eaters.

The conversation Hagrid overhears could very well be Dumbledore telling Snape he MUST kill (or appear to kill) Dumbledore, and Snape not wanting to.

Dumbledore says “Severus…please.” I assume this to be asking Snape to go through with the plan. Snape is obviously repelled by what he is being asked to do, based on the look on his face. Albus hasn’t been begging at all up to this point, so why would he be begging for his life now? He wants Snape to follow the plan as discussed.

Snape and Dumbledore are accomplished Occlumens and Legilimens; they can hide their thoughts from intrusion, and read thoughts. There was every opportunity for them to carry on a conversation in their minds in front of the Death Eaters.

The Avada Kedavra curse requires intent. Mad-Eye Moody tells the class they could all point their wands and say it and not hurt him. You must truly mean it and hate the victim. The mere recitation of the words is no surety that Snape would kill Dumbledore.

The Avada Kedavra curse has been seen used twice before; both victims slumped to the ground; they did NOT fly into the air. Snape could easily have said “Avada Kedavra” out loud and used a non-verbal spell to affect Dumbledore.

Snape gives Harry advice on how to defeat other wizards, AS HE FIGHTS HIM.

Snape heals Harry, claiming he is to be left for the Dark Lord. He COULD have dragged Harry away, or left him crippled and not dead yet. Snape’s giving Harry every chance to survive.

Snape loses his cool when Harry calls him a coward. Check that section out; he’s FURIOUS. Think about it: he’s skirting the edge of destruction be planning to betray Voldemort and leaving the safety of Hogwarts. He’s being enormously courageous; he’s having second thoughts about it (the argument overheard by Hagrid); but he’s doing it. The last thing he wants is for people who don’t know how crucial his role is to think he’s actually somehow a coward.

Finally, we cannot accept that all of Dumbledore’s confidence in Snape was misplaced; that would make Dumbledore an enormous fool. He’s not.

The biggest turning point in Harry’s maturity in the last book will be the moment when he realizes that Snape was working for Dumbledore, and that he has benefitted Harry. Harry learning to accept that Snape is one of the good guys–despite Harry’s personal feelings–will be an amazing moment and scene in the book.

My favorite book of the series.

58

Here are a couple of my thoughts about this.

  1. If she brought back Dumbledore, it wouldn’t bother me. With all the Phoenix thing being set up. But only after Harry has taken out LV.

  2. If she doesn’t, I can see Harry becoming the “new” Dumbledore. I don’t think she will kill Harry, even if it would make sense.

  3. Snape isnt bad, as previous poster said, Dumbledore isn’t THAT stupid.

59

[quote]lucasa wrote:
ToShinDo, six days? Were you reading aloud to minors or mental patients? ;p

[/quote]

Hahaha :wink: It took six days total for both my wife and I to read it. If she hadn’t had to work double shifts, it would have gone by faster. It was hard not to read it!

Yeah I know she really isn’t that much younger, she just always seemed younger in the previous books. And no, I didn’t date any freshman my senior year. Well, that’s not to say I didn’t try, it just never happened!

60

Some good ideas on this thread:
1 - I don’t think RAB is regulus black as in order of the phonix sirius says regulus was not important, dim and was killed by one of voldemort’s minions.

2 - Seems odd that dumbledore’s plan would involve dumbledore being killed as he is the most powerful wizard of all and the only one LV fears.

3 - I think HP will kill LV but will then become bad himself and kill a few people before being stopped himself by ron, snape and hermione.