Happy Pills - Advice Needed

Off Topic
41

[quote]synthesis wrote:
I’m not sure what the benefit of CBT is really. I mean, if I’m having a real bad spell and can’t get laid for the life of me, I can stop negative thinking and blaming myself, “Oh, I’m a loser and I don’t have such-and-such positive quality,” but I’m still not getting laid.[/quote]

But what if one of the reasons you are not successful is that you have habitual patterns of negative thinking that precede the social problems? There is a very big difference between having negative thoughts because something is wrong, and having ingrained patterns of thought that negatively influence all aspects of your life, and which are, for the most part, independent of real-world events.

42

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Not that I am sold on CBT.

Why not?[/quote]

Because I feel that the focus on conscious expressions is to the exclusion of subconscious conflicts that may find ways to disrupt waking life without becoming conscious.

From my reading of CBT, it seems that the voice in one’s head is merely habit, or a learned behavior, and is never the manifestation of deeper subconscious conflicts.

So if one hears a voice say that one is worthless, that is a learned behavior for CBT - one thinks it because one heard it from one’s father, for example, or generated the thought independently and it became habit.

But I think it is possible that the voice instead reflects - for example - unresolved feelings of inferiority toward one’s father, and the conscious thought is only the tip of the iceberg, as it were; to become healthy, one would need to address those root issues of inferiority.

Now, it is possible that CBT does this indirectly, because through dialog one might be able to address the underlying assumptions that lead to the original assessment of one’s father’s superiority; but this hardly seems foolproof.

Part of the reason that CBT is popular is that it seems to get results rather quickly - which is good - but I am not sold on its effectiveness at the deepest levels.

43

wow, a couple things:

  1. I’ve heard that most of these have NASTY side effects like dry mouth, constupation, ED, and on and on - which is probably why they have not caught on rec drugs like vicodins and others have… completely anecdotal - i would steer away and find some other rec chemicals

  2. read the details on the drugs websites, they have a ton of info on there and at least you won’t be surprised

again, if just for recreation, I would say stay away my man

44

[quote]nephorm wrote:
But what if one of the reasons you are not successful is that you have habitual patterns of negative thinking that precede the social problems?

There is a very big difference between having negative thoughts because something is wrong, and having ingrained patterns of thought that negatively influence all aspects of your life, and which are, for the most part, independent of real-world events.[/quote]

Huh? Is there a big difference? It sounds like a viscous circle in which what precedes what has become irrelevant.

There are negative thought patterns and there are real-world events that cause problems in your life. You can strive to control your thoughts and behavior preceding and following a disappointing real-world event, but that will only get you so far.

Positive thinking is good, but a therapist typically isn’t the one to go to for tips on picking up chicks and acing job interviews.

If you think that’s all you need, then CBT is for you. I used to have clinical depression but I no longer have these thought patterns and I truly believe I don’t display enough symptoms to be diagnosed as such, but my former therapist thought so. They mostly thought so because I felt unfulfilled.

45

[quote]synthesis wrote:
Huh? Is there a big difference? It sounds like a viscous circle in which what precedes what has become irrelevant.

There are negative thought patterns and there are real-world events that cause problems in your life. You can strive to control your thoughts and behavior preceding and following a disappointing real-world event, but that will only get you so far.

Positive thinking is good, but a therapist typically isn’t the one to go to for tips on picking up chicks and acing job interviews.

If you think that’s all you need, then CBT is for you. I used to have clinical depression but I no longer have these thought patterns and I truly believe I don’t display enough symptoms to be diagnosed as such, but my former therapist thought so. They mostly thought so because I felt unfulfilled. [/quote]

Let me step back and say that there is a trend - especially in pop-psychology - to stress feelings, emotions, and thoughts as being independent of real world results. But sometimes you are depressed for good reason, or angry, or irritated, or stressed, or whatever. And yes, it is possible that there is a persistent, real-world problem that is the root of whatever emotional state presents itself as a symptom. So I think we have common ground there.

You can be depressed about lack of success with women, which can lead to further failure, and so on, while the original event that started the negative spiral was merely a chance series of events that were distressing.

But this situation indicates that the events are themselves the source of the reaction (and we’ll ignore the complications of preexisting psychological issues that have triggers in real-world events). So, assuming you are able to calm yourself down long enough to have a successful interaction with a woman or with women, the problem should resolve itself.

If the problem originally stems from learned thought patterns, these will not generally change because of simple experience. So even if you were able to get a woman, you would find a way to rationalize the earlier negative thinking and it would still be applied to the current situation. Or, to make the issue even simpler, we could just think of the habitual thoughts as being more deeply ingrained or more fully believed than the negative thoughts that are inspired by a disappointing event.

Or you could just think of it this way: therapy, to the extent it works, allows you to shift your focus from how you feel to how you can solve the situations in your life that require solutions.

46

The last bit sounds about right, but a bit more pragmatic than what most therapists practice.

You say you’re stupid and a therapist says that’s an irrational belief. But what if you really are stupid? Maybe your major isn’t appropriate. Or maybe a 4-year degree just isn’t for you at all.

The therapist tries to make your life work as it is but what some people really need is to deconstruct their way of life completely, reevaluate things and start from the beginning. If you get labeled as depressed, you will seriously get this stupid horse shit “can’t win in a rational discussion” type of situation.

If you talk to a therapist and say that you’re doing it all wrong, they’ll tell you that in reality, you’re thinking about it all wrong. In my experience, there is a stress on the internal (thoughts, feelings) while I’ve come to the conclusion that I need to alter external factors to see any real change.

47

[quote]synthesis wrote:
The last bit sounds about right, but a bit more pragmatic than what most therapists practice.

You say you’re stupid and a therapist says that’s an irrational belief. But what if you really are stupid? Maybe your major isn’t appropriate. Or maybe a 4-year degree just isn’t for you at all.

The therapist tries to make your life work as it is but what some people really need is to deconstruct their way of life completely, reevaluate things and start from the beginning. If you get labeled as depressed, you will seriously get this stupid horse shit “can’t win in a rational discussion” type of situation.

If you talk to a therapist and say that you’re doing it all wrong, they’ll tell you that in reality, you’re thinking about it all wrong. In my experience, there is a stress on the internal (thoughts, feelings) while I’ve come to the conclusion that I need to alter external factors to see any real change.[/quote]

The first part of your post seems to be a common misconception about cognitive therapy. Cognitive restructuring often gets portrayed as “replace thought X with thought Y.” While that simplification can be a decent representation of what happens on a basic level, it’s not really accurate.

CBT would involve evaluating the evidence for thought X. If objective evidence points to thought X being correct, then your thoughts are rational and reflective of what’s going on around you. It would be very tricky, but in the example you posted, the therapist should not ask you to replace the thought with “I’m not stupid” etc.

As far as fixing external factors rather than stressing the internal, I happen to agree with. Keep in mind that the most common form of CBT for depression involves just that: identifying environmental factors that are contributing to your mood and making appropriate adjustments.

There are “stricter” forms of therapy in that regard that involve less focus on the internal and more focus on the external. An example would be behavioral activation, and the best evidence we have suggests that technique to be the most important of all of the CBT components (Jacobson et al., 1996).

48

Also neph, I really have no idea what you’re getting at. Your reply to PRCalDude suggests you advocate a more inclusive approach that includes psychotherapy techniques?

I’m not really one to tell someone not to try something that doesn’t harm anyone else, and I’ve found that most things aren’t very cut and dry either. I’m pretty much saying that should you try some form of therapy for feeling down, don’t be surprised if later you come to the conclusion that it was a total waste of money or that you could have achieved just as much on your own.

I’m sure it does help some people, but to me, I don’t picture problems disappearing when you realize that you hate your parents or that you’re overly critical of yourself…unless your problem is agnosis.

49

[quote]mrw173 wrote:
The first part of your post seems to be a common misconception about cognitive therapy. Cognitive restructuring often gets portrayed as “replace thought X with thought Y.” While that simplification can be a decent representation of what happens on a basic level, it’s not really accurate.

CBT would involve evaluating the evidence for thought X. If objective evidence points to thought X being correct, then your thoughts are rational and reflective of what’s going on around you. It would be very tricky, but in the example you posted, the therapist should not ask you to replace the thought with “I’m not stupid” etc.

As far as fixing external factors rather than stressing the internal, I happen to agree with. Keep in mind that the most common form of CBT for depression involves just that: identifying environmental factors that are contributing to your mood and making appropriate adjustments.

There are “stricter” forms of therapy in that regard that involve less focus on the internal and more focus on the external. An example would be behavioral activation, and the best evidence we have suggests that technique to be the most important of all of the CBT components (Jacobson et al., 1996).[/quote]

“Stupid” is an emotionally charged word. No matter the outcome of the ensuing discussion, I would imagine a therapist would suggest it be changed to something else. I don’t see the validity of the thought as being important so much as the value assigned to the word or the value (personal, societal, whatever) of what is supposedly wrong or lacking.

I had been seeing a highly respected therapist for several years and these discussions over how rational my thoughts were always seemed to degenerate into epistemology debates. I’ve changed my approach/actions/behavior and I’m still not getting the desired result, but he’s telling me the opposite of “shit happens.”

“Good stuff happens for no reason” or something. I mean, I’ve read some Hume in all so I understand its basis, but he has fucking degrees in the sciences. Is he going to give me an unestablished, psychiatric drug because there’s still a good chance that it will help me? No. He was trying to have his cake and eat it too.

My sessions just gave me the impression that therapy is optimal for the less-than-bright crowd.

50

[quote]synthesis wrote:
mrw173 wrote:
The first part of your post seems to be a common misconception about cognitive therapy. Cognitive restructuring often gets portrayed as “replace thought X with thought Y.” While that simplification can be a decent representation of what happens on a basic level, it’s not really accurate.

CBT would involve evaluating the evidence for thought X. If objective evidence points to thought X being correct, then your thoughts are rational and reflective of what’s going on around you. It would be very tricky, but in the example you posted, the therapist should not ask you to replace the thought with “I’m not stupid” etc.

As far as fixing external factors rather than stressing the internal, I happen to agree with. Keep in mind that the most common form of CBT for depression involves just that: identifying environmental factors that are contributing to your mood and making appropriate adjustments.

There are “stricter” forms of therapy in that regard that involve less focus on the internal and more focus on the external. An example would be behavioral activation, and the best evidence we have suggests that technique to be the most important of all of the CBT components (Jacobson et al., 1996).

“Stupid” is an emotionally charged word. No matter the outcome of the ensuing discussion, I would imagine a therapist would suggest it be changed to something else. I don’t see the validity of the thought as being important so much as the value assigned to the word or the value (personal, societal, whatever) of what is supposedly wrong or lacking.

I had been seeing a highly respected therapist for several years and these discussions over how rational my thoughts were always seemed to degenerate into epistemology debates. I’ve changed my approach/actions/behavior and I’m still not getting the desired result, but he’s telling me the opposite of “shit happens.”

“Good stuff happens for no reason” or something. I mean, I’ve read some Hume in all so I understand its basis, but he has fucking degrees in the sciences. Is he going to give me an unestablished, psychiatric drug because there’s still a good chance that it will help me? No. He was trying to have his cake and eat it too.

My sessions just gave me the impression that therapy is optimal for the less-than-bright crowd.[/quote]

Keep in mind that no technique works for everyone. Heck, that goes for practically anything in life (look at the stuff discussed on this site for examples).

One type of therapy may have 200 studies that say there’s a good average response across a sample. That doesn’t tell you a darn thing about how it will work with any one individual. Those studies also often fail to give us much information about the 30% (or whatever percentage it may be) who don’t find it helpful.

51

I thought part of the job of therapy was to bring the subconscious to light.

52

[quote]mrw173 wrote:
Keep in mind that no technique works for everyone. Heck, that goes for practically anything in life (look at the stuff discussed on this site for examples).

One type of therapy may have 200 studies that say there’s a good average response across a sample. That doesn’t tell you a darn thing about how it will work with any one individual. Those studies also often fail to give us much information about the 30% (or whatever percentage it may be) who don’t find it helpful.[/quote]

Like I said, I don’t doubt that therapy will help some people since not everyone has a set of healthy coping skills. I only consider it the first step which may not even be necessary for some people. My problem is that psychiatry/psychology is sold to the patient and the patient’s family so that they are to believe that satisfactory results will be achieved.

53

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
From my reading of CBT, it seems that the voice in one’s head is merely habit, or a learned behavior, and is never the manifestation of deeper subconscious conflicts.

I thought part of the job of therapy was to bring the subconscious to light. [/quote]

Depends on the therapy.

54

[quote]synthesis wrote:
Also neph, I really have no idea what you’re getting at. Your reply to PRCalDude suggests you advocate a more inclusive approach that includes psychotherapy techniques?
[/quote]

I do. But that takes a lot longer. I am not a psychologist/psychiatrist, so I can only speak to my particular biases and what I have read.

[quote]
I’m sure it does help some people, but to me, I don’t picture problems disappearing when you realize that you hate your parents or that you’re overly critical of yourself…unless your problem is agnosis.[/quote]

Well, it is possible to be aware of irrational thought without knowing how to confront it; having a more or less objective mediator can help. And I do believe that there are subconscious conflicts that can influence how we behave and think, and that becoming consciously aware of these conflicts can help us live better.

That is, people suffer not from lack of self-awareness as you are describing it, but rather from the hidden nature of subconscious processes that require analysis to fully probe.

55

erm wow
i already sent nephorm a mail about this thread.
VERY good reading even if some of it goes WELL over my head !
but good reading even for my age group !