Experimentation on Prisoners

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
41

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.

Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.[/quote]

Luckily a lot of them aren’t. There are around 100 privately run prisons in the US. I don’t like the idea, but also recognize that the states don’t do a good job of it either.

Agree on count #2 wholeheartedly, with a round of applause.[/quote]

I just think if prisons were run like a business they would actually try to reform violent offenders – not saying all prisoners can be reformed or even should be but I know that as long as the prison industrial complex runs the show they have no incentive to reform criminals whatsoever.
[/quote]

Where is the profit motive in reforming convicts? The private prisons now use their inmates as a cheap labor source for corporations.

While I don’t disagree with a prisoner needing to work to pay his debt to society, something about the prison profiting from their labor sits wrong with me.[/quote]

If the business objective is to reform violent offenders and they do not reform violent offenders they would go out of business.

Criminals owe no debt to society. They owe it to the individual victims. If there be no victim then there be no crime.

42

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.

Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.[/quote]

Luckily a lot of them aren’t. There are around 100 privately run prisons in the US. I don’t like the idea, but also recognize that the states don’t do a good job of it either.

Agree on count #2 wholeheartedly, with a round of applause.[/quote]

I just think if prisons were run like a business they would actually try to reform violent offenders – not saying all prisoners can be reformed or even should be but I know that as long as the prison industrial complex runs the show they have no incentive to reform criminals whatsoever.
[/quote]

id like to see the stats on that - i am skeptical because there is no profit motive for reform. reform is hard enough as it is for a multitude of reasons, but i think it would be even more difficult when it is counter intuitive to the ultimate goal of making money.

43

[quote]koffea wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.

Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.[/quote]

Luckily a lot of them aren’t. There are around 100 privately run prisons in the US. I don’t like the idea, but also recognize that the states don’t do a good job of it either.

Agree on count #2 wholeheartedly, with a round of applause.[/quote]

I just think if prisons were run like a business they would actually try to reform violent offenders – not saying all prisoners can be reformed or even should be but I know that as long as the prison industrial complex runs the show they have no incentive to reform criminals whatsoever.
[/quote]

id like to see the stats on that - i am skeptical because there is no profit motive for reform. [/quote]

Maybe not for reforming but reducing the risks of criminal behavior there is most definitely a profit motive for. I could see insurance agencies figuring out how to do it.

44

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]koffea wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.

Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.[/quote]

Luckily a lot of them aren’t. There are around 100 privately run prisons in the US. I don’t like the idea, but also recognize that the states don’t do a good job of it either.

Agree on count #2 wholeheartedly, with a round of applause.[/quote]

I just think if prisons were run like a business they would actually try to reform violent offenders – not saying all prisoners can be reformed or even should be but I know that as long as the prison industrial complex runs the show they have no incentive to reform criminals whatsoever.
[/quote]

id like to see the stats on that - i am skeptical because there is no profit motive for reform. [/quote]

Maybe not for reforming but reducing the risks of criminal behavior there is most definitely a profit motive for. I could see insurance agencies figuring out how to do it.[/quote]

Humanely? :slight_smile:

45

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Not many miss a chance to proclaim how they’d like to torture murderers and rapists. So why not use them in the place of innocent animals, some of which aren’t close enough to humans in the right ways to be good biological models?

I’m not talking about merely convicted criminals, I’m talking about repeated, 1st degree offenders of violent crimes against weak humans, with DNA evidence involved in more than one case (okay, so this is hypothetical because that doesn’t happen much…you get my drift. We know for sure they are the offender of hideous, repeated crime).

Discuss.[/quote]

Well, the National Socialists started with the foulest of prisoners in Germany.

They then went on to other “undesireables.”

The idea that a human life (no matter how foul) is of less value than the life of an animal is a dangerously slippery slope.

46

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.

Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.[/quote]

How would we run prisons if not by the government?

Secondly, I agree.

47

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Not many miss a chance to proclaim how they’d like to torture murderers and rapists. So why not use them in the place of innocent animals, some of which aren’t close enough to humans in the right ways to be good biological models?

I’m not talking about merely convicted criminals, I’m talking about repeated, 1st degree offenders of violent crimes against weak humans, with DNA evidence involved in more than one case (okay, so this is hypothetical because that doesn’t happen much…you get my drift. We know for sure they are the offender of hideous, repeated crime).

Discuss.[/quote]

Well, the National Socialists started with the foulest of prisoners in Germany.

They then went on to other “undesireables.”

The idea that a human life (no matter how foul) is of less value than the life of an animal is a dangerously slippery slope.[/quote]

I think what we’re really afraid of here is placing too much power accidently in the hands of a few, and are more afraid that the slip will come from allowing experimentation than torture.

I think this is putting human life on par with how we think of animals, not below it. But the fact is, very have a very low(coughnonexistantcough) respect for animal life.

48

[quote]kaaleppi wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]koffea wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Steel Nation wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.

Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.[/quote]

Luckily a lot of them aren’t. There are around 100 privately run prisons in the US. I don’t like the idea, but also recognize that the states don’t do a good job of it either.

Agree on count #2 wholeheartedly, with a round of applause.[/quote]

I just think if prisons were run like a business they would actually try to reform violent offenders – not saying all prisoners can be reformed or even should be but I know that as long as the prison industrial complex runs the show they have no incentive to reform criminals whatsoever.
[/quote]

id like to see the stats on that - i am skeptical because there is no profit motive for reform. [/quote]

Maybe not for reforming but reducing the risks of criminal behavior there is most definitely a profit motive for. I could see insurance agencies figuring out how to do it.[/quote]

Humanely? :)[/quote]

I don’t see how they would be able to stay in business if they did it inhumanely.

Besides, the point is to teach them how to behave like proper functioning humans and thus treating them inhumanely would most certainly not work. People learn by example.

49

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.

Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.[/quote]

How would we run prisons if not by the government?

Secondly, I agree.[/quote]

Well “we” would not. But entrepreneurs have figured it out and as soon as the gov’t decentralizes the prison system some ingenious bastard will figure out how to innovate it – especially if it is profitable. I am not that ingenious bastard so I cannot really tell you how it might work except in my own imagination.

50

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.

Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.[/quote]

How would we run prisons if not by the government?

Secondly, I agree.[/quote]

Simple.

Prisons make money by housing as many inmates as possible, so to maximize profit, you need to fill up prisons as much as you can. How? You lock people up for all sorts of shit, even menial shit, hence the war on drugs. Reagan was brilliant with this, he criminalized drugs to the point where the rate of crime stayed the same but the rate of incarceration quadrupled. How did that happen? People got locked up for lesser and lesser shit (me being one of them). Anyone ever wonder why there isn’t a war on pedophiles? Or a war on rapists? Because there aren’t enough of them to make locking them up profitable.

Then you build more prisons. When you have done that, you fill those up, but with whom? Want to guess who helped pass the Arizona Immigration Law? The prison lobby. Yes, and it’s really brilliant because it’s a no brainer (to lock up people who are here illegally).

Guess what comes with prisons? Administrators for parole, probation, halfway houses, drug/alcohol rehab, counseling, bailiffs, judges, US Marshals.

With all that money being thrown around ^^^, does anyone really wonder why we didn’t legalize pot? Think the lobby behind all that up there ^^^ wants to give any of that up?

Funny side note - the main company that supplies prison and jail commissaries is called Keefe. Guess who owns Keefe? Laura Bush. No joke.

52

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Not many miss a chance to proclaim how they’d like to torture murderers and rapists. So why not use them in the place of innocent animals, some of which aren’t close enough to humans in the right ways to be good biological models?

I’m not talking about merely convicted criminals, I’m talking about repeated, 1st degree offenders of violent crimes against weak humans, with DNA evidence involved in more than one case (okay, so this is hypothetical because that doesn’t happen much…you get my drift. We know for sure they are the offender of hideous, repeated crime).

Discuss.[/quote]

Well, the National Socialists started with the foulest of prisoners in Germany.

They then went on to other “undesireables.”

The idea that a human life (no matter how foul) is of less value than the life of an animal is a dangerously slippery slope.[/quote]

I think what we’re really afraid of here is placing too much power accidently in the hands of a few, and are more afraid that the slip will come from allowing experimentation than torture.[/quote]

While concentration of the power in (and of) the State is a legitimate concern, that is not the issue here.

[quote]I think this is putting human life on par with how we think of animals, not below it.
But the fact is, very have a very low(coughnonexistantcough) respect for animal life.[/quote]

Animals and animal life should be respected and treated for what they are: G-d’s creatures.

But animal life and human life, no matter how foul a human (or good the animal – thinking of my dog here), are distinct, and human life should always be held superior to that of an animal.

Animals do not have the spark of the divine; humans (even the worst of us), do.

Once a society stops making that distinction, bad things happen.

53

I talked to CT about this, about something that I would consider a subconscious increase in Testosterone. You literally feel the tension and threat walking around, so you adapt. Guys work out, fat guys lose weight, and skinny guys gain weight. Alot of “300” training, (stuff you might see from the movie 300.) Crossfit type shit, mostly bodyweight stuff from lack of weights, or stuffing pillow cases with dictionaries or encyclopedias to make “dumbbells.” It sucks donkey nuts, but hey you make due.

54

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

Funny side note - the main company that supplies prison and jail commissaries is called Keefe. Guess who owns Keefe? Laura Bush. No joke. [/quote]

The Keefe Group is owned by Mr. Thomas Keefe, who lives in Florida. He’s owned it since 1975.

55

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.

Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.[/quote]

How would we run prisons if not by the government?

Secondly, I agree.[/quote]

Simple.

Prisons make money by housing as many inmates as possible, so to maximize profit, you need to fill up prisons as much as you can. How? You lock people up for all sorts of shit, even menial shit, hence the war on drugs. Reagan was brilliant with this, he criminalized drugs to the point where the rate of crime stayed the same but the rate of incarceration quadrupled. How did that happen? People got locked up for lesser and lesser shit (me being one of them). Anyone ever wonder why there isn’t a war on pedophiles? Or a war on rapists? Because there aren’t enough of them to make locking them up profitable.

Then you build more prisons. When you have done that, you fill those up, but with whom? Want to guess who helped pass the Arizona Immigration Law? The prison lobby. Yes, and it’s really brilliant because it’s a no brainer (to lock up people who are here illegally).

Guess what comes with prisons? Administrators for parole, probation, halfway houses, drug/alcohol rehab, counseling, bailiffs, judges, US Marshals.

With all that money being thrown around ^^^, does anyone really wonder why we didn’t legalize pot? Think the lobby behind all that up there ^^^ wants to give any of that up?

Funny side note - the main company that supplies prison and jail commissaries is called Keefe. Guess who owns Keefe? Laura Bush. No joke. [/quote]

No, if the business is to reform criminals it would seek to try and reform as many inmates as possible and also do its best to keep them from recommitting crimes – e.g. it would have to have a top notch parole program. Also, it would be really difficult to reform criminals when they are surrounded by too many other criminals. The population would have to be extremely controlled.

56

Some great points by the ‘Maxes’.

As for humans being above animals, who came up with that? A god written in the same bible that states that the sun goes around the earth, a woman was created from a man’s rib, god sent a bear to kill a buncsh of kids because they were making fun of a man? That seems like an untrustworthy source that doesnt match up with the rest of reality, andwe havent been able to reproduce. Can you give me another source?

What’s more, its too easy as a human to be biased about the importance of humans using human sources., as the development of sciene has taught us over and over and over again. Yet, we still do it without question.

I’m not saying i don’t act like humans are more important. Obviously, survival often comes at the expense of others and it’s easy to justify it by saying we deserve it because we’re more important spiritual beings. Actually, we deserve it because we’re very manipulative.

57

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Some great points by the ‘Maxes’.

As for humans being above animals, who came up with that? A god written in the same bible that states that the sun goes around the earth, a woman was created from a man’s rib, god sent a bear to kill a buncsh of kids because they were making fun of a man? That seems like an untrustworthy source that doesnt match up with the rest of reality, andwe havent been able to reproduce. Can you give me another source? [/quote]

Such would seem strange if that is what the Torah actually says, but it doesn’t.

Non-Jewish people read: (1) bad translations of the Torah; (2) in a vaccuum without 3500 years of back-story and (3) without the manual (the Talmud). It’s no surprise you goy come up with the weirdest interpretations.

If I thought HaShem was who you think HaShem is, I’d have problems with Him, too.

58

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.

Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.[/quote]

How would we run prisons if not by the government?

Secondly, I agree.[/quote]

Simple.

Prisons make money by housing as many inmates as possible, so to maximize profit, you need to fill up prisons as much as you can. How? You lock people up for all sorts of shit, even menial shit, hence the war on drugs. Reagan was brilliant with this, he criminalized drugs to the point where the rate of crime stayed the same but the rate of incarceration quadrupled. How did that happen? People got locked up for lesser and lesser shit (me being one of them). Anyone ever wonder why there isn’t a war on pedophiles? Or a war on rapists? Because there aren’t enough of them to make locking them up profitable.

Then you build more prisons. When you have done that, you fill those up, but with whom? Want to guess who helped pass the Arizona Immigration Law? The prison lobby. Yes, and it’s really brilliant because it’s a no brainer (to lock up people who are here illegally).

Guess what comes with prisons? Administrators for parole, probation, halfway houses, drug/alcohol rehab, counseling, bailiffs, judges, US Marshals.

With all that money being thrown around ^^^, does anyone really wonder why we didn’t legalize pot? Think the lobby behind all that up there ^^^ wants to give any of that up?

Funny side note - the main company that supplies prison and jail commissaries is called Keefe. Guess who owns Keefe? Laura Bush. No joke. [/quote]

No, if the business is to reform criminals it would seek to try and reform as many inmates as possible and also do its best to keep them from recommitting crimes – e.g. it would have to have a top notch parole program. Also, it would be really difficult to reform criminals when they are surrounded by too many other criminals. The population would have to be extremely controlled.[/quote]

No.

The BUSINESS is not to reform criminals, but to house them. CCA’s don’t make money by reforming anyone, they are paid to house them, in which case the more they house, the more money they make. Also, to make even more money, you need to have a high recidivism rate so they come back.

Reforming a person comes from the person, the same way the desire to educate one’s self comes from the individual’s desire to learn. If you do not want to learn, you will not do well, no matter how good the school.

59

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Some great points by the ‘Maxes’.

As for humans being above animals, who came up with that? A god written in the same bible that states that the sun goes around the earth, a woman was created from a man’s rib, god sent a bear to kill a buncsh of kids because they were making fun of a man? That seems like an untrustworthy source that doesnt match up with the rest of reality, andwe havent been able to reproduce. Can you give me another source? [/quote]

Such would seem strange if that is what the Torah actually says, but it doesn’t.

Non-Jewish people read: (1) bad translations of the Torah; (2) in a vaccuum without 3500 years of back-story and (3) without the manual (the Talmud). It’s no surprise you goy come up with the weirdest interpretations.

If I thought HaShem was who you think HaShem is, I’d have problems with Him, too.[/quote]

I’m talking about the christian bible, face value, no interpretations. If it’s really the word of god, he knew people would interpret it wrong and could have been more clear if that’s not really what it meant.

Also, you were instructed by others about how to interpret the word. How do you know for sure that THEY got it right?

60

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Jewbacca wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Some great points by the ‘Maxes’.

As for humans being above animals, who came up with that? A god written in the same bible that states that the sun goes around the earth, a woman was created from a man’s rib, god sent a bear to kill a buncsh of kids because they were making fun of a man? That seems like an untrustworthy source that doesnt match up with the rest of reality, andwe havent been able to reproduce. Can you give me another source? [/quote]

Such would seem strange if that is what the Torah actually says, but it doesn’t.

Non-Jewish people read: (1) bad translations of the Torah; (2) in a vaccuum without 3500 years of back-story and (3) without the manual (the Talmud). It’s no surprise you goy come up with the weirdest interpretations.

If I thought HaShem was who you think HaShem is, I’d have problems with Him, too.[/quote]

I’m talking about the christian bible, face value, no interpretations. If it’s really the word of god, he knew people would interpret it wrong and could have been more clear if that’s not really what it meant.

Also, you were instructed by others about how to interpret the word. How do you know for sure that THEY got it right?[/quote]

I am pretty clearly not one to opine on the Christian Bible, so I can’t help you much there.

I would note that the Christians I know who take their commitment seriously tend to be happy, well-adjusted, people. They tend to be productive citizens, good parents, good neighbors, and and good employees.

Annoying, perhaps, but doing their best to honor G-d in their way, and that works for me.