[quote]smh23 wrote:
We all fantasize about seeing murdering assholes tormented and humiliated.[/quote]
Not all of us…
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
You misunderstand. I’m not arguing for this. It just crossed my mind “Why are people okay with personally torturing a rapist or murderer but not with running experiments on them?”. What do you think?[/quote]
Because the former appeals to their sense of justice, and the latter is just ethics.
(thats sarcasm And irony in case anybody is feeling touchy today)
[/quote]
But are they not both forms of torture? (being the devil’s advocate here 
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]cloakmanor wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
You misunderstand. I’m not arguing for this. It just crossed my mind “Why are people okay with personally torturing a rapist or murderer but not with running experiments on them?”. What do you think?[/quote]
The very idea of torture is reprehensible. It is shameful than anyone would even entertain such an idea. Also remember that governments over time never stop at “merely” mistreating their prisoners if they are sanctioned to do so.[/quote]
BULLSHIT.
You have guys in there who are laughing at the weakness of our system and laws. Guys talking about only getting a nickel for a charge worthy of at least a dime. I am not talking about the low level drug offender (like myself), I am talking about the dirtbag sumbitches who plot their crime. Who have no regard for what they did or who they hurt. Fuck them. [/quote]
Please reread my post. I clearly stated that torture used against anyone for any reason whatsoever reprehensible, not to mention cowardly.
[quote]cloakmanor wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]cloakmanor wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
You misunderstand. I’m not arguing for this. It just crossed my mind “Why are people okay with personally torturing a rapist or murderer but not with running experiments on them?”. What do you think?[/quote]
The very idea of torture is reprehensible. It is shameful than anyone would even entertain such an idea. Also remember that governments over time never stop at “merely” mistreating their prisoners if they are sanctioned to do so.[/quote]
BULLSHIT.
You have guys in there who are laughing at the weakness of our system and laws. Guys talking about only getting a nickel for a charge worthy of at least a dime. I am not talking about the low level drug offender (like myself), I am talking about the dirtbag sumbitches who plot their crime. Who have no regard for what they did or who they hurt. Fuck them. [/quote]
Please reread my post. I clearly stated that torture used against anyone for any reason whatsoever reprehensible, not to mention cowardly.[/quote]
It is this mentality that explains the high recividism rate.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
[quote]koffea wrote:
now if a death row guy wants to volunteer for experimentation that could be lethal or ethically questionable, in an effort to make amends to society and their maker. I would be open to listening the arguments. But i am still against it. We have been down this road before, and it did not end well.[/quote]
Interesting. I put this up in here because I feel that I can’t have an opinion on the matter as I view humans as animals, and by that virtue don’t believe that it’s right to experiment on either, but at the same time am not willing to give up the things that make my life better that are the result of experimentation on either humans or animals against their will.
Therefore, I don’t get to have a say about this since my say doesn’t effect how I act.
Carry on.
[/quote]
you always get a say, you have simply found a place where you are hypocrite. fear not though, all of us that think about ethics long enough find that we are all raging hypocrites. and if your not willing to be a hypocrite at some point then you end up with extremely disturbing conclusions, just ask peter singer.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
You misunderstand. I’m not arguing for this. It just crossed my mind “Why are people okay with personally torturing a rapist or murderer but not with running experiments on them?”. What do you think?[/quote]
Because the former appeals to their sense of justice, and the latter is just ethics.
(thats sarcasm And irony in case anybody is feeling touchy today)
[/quote]
But are they not both forms of torture? (being the devil’s advocate here ;)[/quote]
Yes. But they appeal to different motives. The same person could easily be in favor of flaying them with a potato peeler, yet not approve of medical research or experimentation which could yield the same net result.
Just depends on what motives are driving the decision.
Practically speaking, I would say that they make great guinea pigs for new medications and experimental procedures. Ethically, I would disagree with my practical side because imposing ones will on another person involuntarily is the root of all crime. Unfortunately, I can’t separate my sense of justice (used tongue in cheek in exchange for vengeance) from my ethics as well as some people can.
Realistically though, and if I’m brutally honest with myself, I wouldn’t approve of something like this based on my own knowledge of the fact that I am capable of doing things that could land Me behind bars. (not the wacko rape type stuff, but crimes of anger, stupidity, or revenge, sure.)
It also sets foot on the slippery slope of doing it to a category of person first, then bureaucratically spreading through out and entire population.
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:
We all fantasize about seeing murdering assholes tormented and humiliated.[/quote]
Not all of us…
[/quote]
I was using it as a figure of speech.
That said, I’d say most people have at one time or another heard about a horrific crime and wished a painful death upon the man or woman who committed it. Recently someone made a thread on here about a guy who is about to get out of prison for murdering a 5-year old boy with a butcher’s knife and possibly eating his corpse a couple of decades ago. I’m usually a pretty peaceful/compassionate guy, but when I heard that story I wanted that cocksucker to suffer. I think most people have that sort of reaction, at least in the heat of the moment.
A short commercial break (this may be the cutest thing I’ve ever seen in my life):
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Not many miss a chance to proclaim how they’d like to torture murderers and rapists. So why not use them in the place of innocent animals, some of which aren’t close enough to humans in the right ways to be good biological models?
I’m not talking about merely convicted criminals, I’m talking about repeated, 1st degree offenders of violent crimes against weak humans, with DNA evidence involved in more than one case (okay, so this is hypothetical because that doesn’t happen much…you get my drift. We know for sure they are the offender of hideous, repeated crime).
Discuss.[/quote]
No, the dignity of a human is the first order. To perform possibly harmful experiments on a human is unethical and takes away a person’s dignity and right to life.[/quote]
http://www.wma.net/en/30publications/10policies/b3/[/quote]
Okay. I read it, what do you want me to say?
[quote]Deorum wrote:
[quote]smh23 wrote:We all fantasize about seeing murdering assholes tormented and humiliated.[/quote]Not all of us… [/quote]We actually agree on something. I am a proponent of capital punishment, but cannot condone the involuntary experimentation on any still human being. Even if my own child would be saved by the research.
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.
Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.
Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.[/quote]
Luckily a lot of them aren’t. There are around 100 privately run prisons in the US. I don’t like the idea, but also recognize that the states don’t do a good job of it either.
Agree on count #2 wholeheartedly, with a round of applause.
this is a very touchy subject with me. i have great love and respect for all animals. the way we treat and have treated animals of all species is sickening. the way we have slaughtered the innocent whales of our oceans is beyond disgusting.
they are probably the smartest creatures on this planet and we slaughter them without mercy. at least only a couple of countries still hunt whales. i have great hatred for those who hunt for pleasure. sure if you live in the wildness and need to kill to survive thats one thing. just writing about it makes me ill.
[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.
Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.[/quote]
Luckily a lot of them aren’t. There are around 100 privately run prisons in the US. I don’t like the idea, but also recognize that the states don’t do a good job of it either.
Agree on count #2 wholeheartedly, with a round of applause.[/quote]
I just think if prisons were run like a business they would actually try to reform violent offenders – not saying all prisoners can be reformed or even should be but I know that as long as the prison industrial complex runs the show they have no incentive to reform criminals whatsoever.
[quote]roguevampire wrote:
this is a very touchy subject with me. i have great love and respect for all animals. the way we treat and have treated animals of all species is sickening. the way we have slaughtered the innocent whales of our oceans is beyond disgusting.
they are probably the smartest creatures on this planet and we slaughter them without mercy. at least only a couple of countries still hunt whales. i have great hatred for those who hunt for pleasure. sure if you live in the wildness and need to kill to survive thats one thing. just writing about it makes me ill.[/quote]
Innocent animals taste the best.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I once spoke about this with Thibs, I tossed out the idea that one of the reasons why guys get so jacked while inside is not from the food or the workouts. My theory was the increased testosterone from the threat of violence.[/quote]
It’s motivation.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]roguevampire wrote:
this is a very touchy subject with me. i have great love and respect for all animals. the way we treat and have treated animals of all species is sickening. the way we have slaughtered the innocent whales of our oceans is beyond disgusting.
they are probably the smartest creatures on this planet and we slaughter them without mercy. at least only a couple of countries still hunt whales. i have great hatred for those who hunt for pleasure. sure if you live in the wildness and need to kill to survive thats one thing. just writing about it makes me ill.[/quote]
Innocent animals taste the best.[/quote]
Seeing your avatar got me thinking how they eat only plants and tree bark. yet are massively muscular. no meat at all.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]Steel Nation wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Firstly, the prisons should not be run by government.
Secondly, no one should be behind bars that is not a violent offender.[/quote]
Luckily a lot of them aren’t. There are around 100 privately run prisons in the US. I don’t like the idea, but also recognize that the states don’t do a good job of it either.
Agree on count #2 wholeheartedly, with a round of applause.[/quote]
I just think if prisons were run like a business they would actually try to reform violent offenders – not saying all prisoners can be reformed or even should be but I know that as long as the prison industrial complex runs the show they have no incentive to reform criminals whatsoever.
[/quote]
Where is the profit motive in reforming convicts? The private prisons now use their inmates as a cheap labor source for corporations.
While I don’t disagree with a prisoner needing to work to pay his debt to society, something about the prison profiting from their labor sits wrong with me.
The private prisons, called CCA’s (Correctional Corporation of America), are run much better than the government institutions. Well, better in some ways, and worse in others. You can tell they are about their bottom line, when you have guys sleeping in boats, in hallways, basically anywhere you can put them. Their guards seemed better, and the place was cleaner.
As far as cheap labor, you guys are not seeing the win-win in this. Yes, the government gets shit done on the cheap (I got paid 12 cents/hour for doing construction work at a minimum security camp in Vegas.) The other side is, that from the prisoner POV, I got out of the prison for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, doing shit that took my mind off of my situation. You also had guys in charge who (for a fee) would let you sneak your girlfriend or wife onto the facility and get some alone time. Back in 2005, the going rate was $100 hr that you paid your boss, and he basically covered for you while you got laid to holy hell. Boss would buy McDonalds, Burger King, Pizza Hut, whatever we wanted (just no booze since we got drug/alcohol tested alot.)
You guys have to understand something…
Money talks, you can get ALOT if you have money. Guys had cellphones, iPods, roids, basically whatever you needed, if you could pay the price. Now in the higher security places, the costs are more (because guards need to be paid more to sneak the shit in.) When smoking was outlawed in Fed prisons, the price went from $3 a pack to $20 a pack, the underground economy is a bitch. If you wanted a porno mag, you were looking at $25. Some of the female guards are DTF, for a price. Not all, but some.
My conclusion about human behavior after my 2.5 yrs spent in 10 different institutions…
Humans will do what they must to accommodate themselves to adjust to their environment. Then they will adjust their environment to accommodate their old lifestyles. Guys who the moment they get inside talk about being straight shooters (not doing anything against the rules), after time, were making hooch, pruno, gambling, drugs, being gay-for-stay, doing shit they used to do on the outside.
I could write an encyclopedia on the shit I saw LOL.
[quote]roguevampire wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]roguevampire wrote:
this is a very touchy subject with me. i have great love and respect for all animals. the way we treat and have treated animals of all species is sickening. the way we have slaughtered the innocent whales of our oceans is beyond disgusting.
they are probably the smartest creatures on this planet and we slaughter them without mercy. at least only a couple of countries still hunt whales. i have great hatred for those who hunt for pleasure. sure if you live in the wildness and need to kill to survive thats one thing. just writing about it makes me ill.[/quote]
Innocent animals taste the best.[/quote]
Seeing your avatar got me thinking how they eat only plants and tree bark. yet are massively muscular. no meat at all.[/quote]
Oh yes they do eat meat, my friend. They have been known to kill and eat small animals (especially the cute ones everyone is so fond of). They also eat lots of buggy things.
Mmmmm. Lunch time.