Eqipose/Test or Dianabol/Test?

Pharma / TRT
41

[quote]rainjack wrote:
gerby wrote:
I seem to recall writing that people would resort to meaningless personal insults. Thank you for proving many of my points. All of the generalizations that I have made have been demonstrated in the literature, and weren’t personal knocks on anyone here (other than conceit, who steals other people words). Drugs are a choice, so be my guest and do them. Again, statistics show that steroid users have a much higher mortality rate and rate of disease.

Produce a study that proves those on AAS has a “higher rate of disease”.

Oh - and the statement about steroid users having a higher mortality rate is laughable. Last I checked, the mortality rate for humans is 100%.

But I am sure you have plenty of solid proof to back that up, no?

So you plan on taking roids for the rest of your life?? Oh, and what personal accomplishments have I “stutted out?” I simply said that I gained 60 pounds naturally. I think that it is pretty good. If you don’t, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I just can’t imagine that I’m the only person who notices the roid rage here. So many personal attacks. What good do they do? Like some roid head who knows nothing about me is going to hurt my feelings by calling me a nazi. These are just my thoughts, as your posts are your thoughts. The readers will read what they want, discard most of it, and apply what they find helpful. .

Which is worse? Your estrogen filled trolling or having a good old heated discussion? Sorry, Sparky - I already have a wife. Thankfully she is considerably more enlightened about AAS than you are, but she whines just like you do when we fight.

I think that it is a good thing for someone thinking about using steroids for the first time to hear as much experience has he can, from people who have used all kinds of different cycles, and perhaps some thoughts from somebody who has never used before and doesn’t intend to. But, if you think that he should only hear from the dark side, well, again, we’ll agree to disagree.

What input can someone that doesn’t use, and is obviously completely ignorant of the subject have?

Let the air out of your balloon - I think it’s cutting off some circulation.

[/quote]

Thank you for proving many of my points. Why is my decision to not use automatically less informed than your decision to use? Just because I haven’t used doesn’t mean I am ignorant about AAS. Someone considering using should consider all options. One option is to not use.

As for the mortality rate, I’ll just quote the American Heritage Dictionary: “n. The ratio of total deaths to total population in a specified community or area over a specified period of time. The death rate is often expressed as the number of deaths per 1,000 of the population per year. Also called fatality rate, or mortality rate.” Saying that AAS users have a higher mortality rate is simply to say that for every 1,000 AAS users, more will die per year than for every 1,000 non-steroid users when controlling for other demographics (in other words, “all other things being equal.” I’m sure a dictionary is too big for you. Now, on to the research:

  1. Bronson, F.H> and Matherne, C.M. (1997) Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise 29, 615-619: “athletes self-administering androgens showed a shortened life-span and evidence of liver, kidney, and heart pathology.”

  2. Parssinen, M., et al. (2000) Increased mortality of competitive powerlifters suspected to have used anabolig agents. International Journal of Sports Medicine 21, 225-227. These investigators found during a 12 year follow-up, the mortality rate for the power lifters was 12.1% compared to 3.1% in a control population.

  3. Petersson, et al., (2006) Morbidity and mortality in patients testing positively for the presence of anabolic androgenic steroids in connection with receiving medical care. A controlled retrospective cohort study. Drug and Alcohol Dependence 81, 215-220. This study found a correlation between steroid use and mental disorders including substance abuse. As such, the researchers suggested that the increase in mortality could have been caused by the steroids, or both the steroid use and the mortality were both caused by underlying mental disorders.

  4. Hartgens F., et al., (2004) Effects of androgenic-anabolic steroids in athletes. Sports Med. 34(8): 513-54. “Mood disturbances (depression, (hypo)mania, psychotic features are likely to be dose and drug dependent. Dissatisfaction with the body and low self-esteem may lead to the so-called “reverse anorexia syndrome” that predisposes to the start of AAS use. Many other adverse effects have been associated with AAS, including disturbance of endocrine and immune function, alterations of the sebacious system and skin, changes of haemostatic system and urogenital tract.”

You’re probably right though, I have no idea how to even read. What does all that stuff say? But hey, they’re just doctors. Stupid doctors. Now, I know you’re going to say that these studies don’t “prove” anything and you’re not going to be swayed by hard science, but that doesn’t bother me. You see, I wasn’t whining, and I didn’t throw any personal insults and anyone. Again, my decision to refrain is no less “informed” than your decision to use. No logic there. As for mortality, well it isn’t my fault that you didn’t bother looking something up before spouting off to criticize someone for not looking something up. But wait, I did look everything up!! My advice to you is to open your mouth and insert your foot.

42

For my first cycle next winter I was originally going to run TestE 500mg 10 weeks and Eq 400mg 10 weeks but have since changed my mind.

My new cycle will be:
Weeks 1-4 Dbol 25mg/day
Weeks 1-15 TestE 500mg/wk (two 250mg injections)
Weeks 6-15 HCG 500iu/wk (two 250iu injections)
Week 16: just ancillarys
Weeks 17-20 Nolva 40/40/20/20

This way I’ll be able to tell how each compound is affecting me individually (since the TestE won’t really start showing sides until at minimum 2-3 weeks into the cycle and by that time I will know if the dbol is giving me the sides.

And to the OP, I would suggest getting in better shape before you run a cycle. I am currently at 165 around 10% bf and will not start into injectables until I’m at least 185 10%bf.

43

[quote]gerby wrote:

Go ahead and insult everybody else on this forum. Go ahead and copy stuff from a book (conceit) and try to pass it off as your own. I challenge any one of you to look me up and challenge me to a posedown when you’re 50. I might not be able to kick your ass now, but I will be able to then and you know it.[/quote]

Food for thought.

When’s the last time a user came on this site and started spewing off insults about natural trainees. NEVER. But it seems to be a weekly almost daily occurance that natural trainers take any cheap shot they can simply because a man chooses to add more of the hormones that are already in his body. You guys are the ones that make a big deal of it and have it implanted in your heads that every steroids user “secretly” mocks you behind your back. You are the ones that try to to humiliate us and discredit our hard work by without drugs our physiques would be nothing. You are the ones that care when really we just don’t give a shit. Find something better to do with your time.

44

And to conceit, thank you for being polite and making your points without senseless name calling. I will respond in kind. If I came accross as condecending, I apologize. I do not claim to know more than anyone on this site. I don’t know you. You might very well know more than me about AAS, or I might know more than you. I do not have personal experience, but that decision to refrain came from knowledge that I think is important, and important to share. Having gotten to 200 lbs naturally, I’m just wondering if that guy can do other things, naturally, before he decides to cycle. It’s worth checking into.

As for mortality rate, I explained that in my response to rainjack. If you look it up in the dictionary, you’ll see that it doesn’t mean what you think.

As for the playing field being the same, that is indeed debatable. First of all, what you’re doing is illegal, a federal offense. Secondly, it is prohibited by all pro sports and all amatuer body building. Would you say that it is perfectly legit for an MLB player to break the home run record with a corked bat as long as he didn’t get caught? After all, they’re available to everyone.

And by the way, did I ever say I didn’t take supplements? Are you seriously comparing AAS to protein powder?

One last point is this: you admit that AAS can help “surpass genetic potential” but you go on to say that AAS “doesn’t make up for genetic muscle growth.” Isn’t “surpassing genetic potential” “making up for genetic muscle growth?” I look forward to your reply

45

[quote]E-man wrote:
gerby wrote:

Go ahead and insult everybody else on this forum. Go ahead and copy stuff from a book (conceit) and try to pass it off as your own. I challenge any one of you to look me up and challenge me to a posedown when you’re 50. I might not be able to kick your ass now, but I will be able to then and you know it.

Food for thought.

When’s the last time a user came on this site and started spewing off insults about natural trainees. NEVER. But it seems to be a weekly almost daily occurance that natural trainers take any cheap shot they can simply because a man chooses to add more of the hormones that are already in his body. You guys are the ones that make a big deal of it and have it implanted in your heads that every steroids user “secretly” mocks you behind your back. You are the ones that try to to humiliate us and discredit our hard work by without drugs our physiques would be nothing. You are the ones that care when really we just don’t give a shit. Find something better to do with your time.

[/quote]

nobody insulted me, ehh? go back and look at the posts. one guy called me a nazi, and I think that your quote of me was directed at that guy. he deserved it.

46

once again, im not god so i can say for sure whether or not he could grow any more. so it was admittedly bold for me to say he has hit a ceiling. but he has worked very hard for his gains, and is falling short of an upcoming deadline.

and im not saying what we are doing is right, however i am saying it is available. and if youve read my profile you know that im not really working towards making people huge. im exploring other options for steroids. and, without meaning to be insulting, you should go back over what i said about genetics.

i reread my post and figured you would think it contradicting. i didnt think spoke clearly. i believe AAS can enhance muscle growth, but the way a muscle grows aesthetically cannot be changed. youve seen the guys whose muscles look perfect and say wow he should do shows or wow his body looks great, and hes huge.

but in comparison youve also seen guys who are just huge, but their muscles have grown, eh, i dont want to say weird, but subpar when it comes to aesthetics. in reference, i wasnt comparing size to size, rather shape to shape. if that makes sense?

also, AAS is comparable to any supplements you can get at a GNC or health food market. its naturally produced. now for something like dbol, or any form of an animal steroid i wont say its naturally produced in our bodies. but whether supplements or AAS its still doing the same thing and its all “bad” for your body. everything you take is meant to speed up growth, and prolong your “peak testosterone levels”.

steroids just make your peaks bigger, and actually have been proven to work… and work GREAT! bottom line is everyone is taking something to get bigger. steroids just happen to be a tried and true way. lol i know that pisses you off. and it pisses a lot of natural guys off, but sadly, its the truth.

i most often compare it to vehicle power. nitrous vs. naturally aspired. both try to pack as much air, and as much fuel, as cold as it can, into an engine so as to burn more fuel. more fuel equals more power. more power equals more speed. our bodies are like motors. you can only go so big and produce so much power from your body before you have to find something new. and when all else fails, juice for boost!

but anything you throw onto or into that motor is meant to burn more fuel and burning more fuel means more power. everything we put into our bodies is meant to increase protein synthesis and more protein our muscles can devour means more power, and size. as much as you dont want to admit it. its all the same, just different results.

as for information and education. i think we are on the same page. it is very important. like i said, injections can be very dangerous and using the drugs, at an incorrect dosage can be a waste of money and time, but once again very dangerous.

im just glad pump is smart enough to ask and gain information rather than being afraid of being called a moron for not knowing something and keeping to himself while taking a big risk.

ive known of several people who thought they knew it all, and didnt think they needed to research or get useful information and ended up hurting themselves very badly! so much respect pump!!

47

[quote]gerby wrote:
Thank you for proving many of my points. Why is my decision to not use automatically less informed than your decision to use? Just because I haven’t used doesn’t mean I am ignorant about AAS. Someone considering using should consider all options. One option is to not use. [/quote]

What points - specifically- did I prove? You are very dislikable. Was that one of your points?

Causation or just correlation? I know you really want to believe that steroids will shorten your life, and cause global warming - but you have to do better than this if you are to be taken seriously.

SUSPECTED to have used??? Since when is science, or more specifically, PROOF based on “suspected” to have been anything. That is subjective at best, and laughable as any sort of proof. All this proves is that competitive powerlifting has a high mortality rate.

Statisitics 101, sparky: Correlation does not mean causation. “Could have been caused by the steroids”? That’s not a study - thats junk science at its finest.

Dude - I am sure you think you are really smart and all - but you have to actually put bullets in that gun if you want it to do any damamge.

I don’t even understand that point of including this study in this debate. I don’t think there is any argument that overuse will cause worse sides than intelligent, conservative use.

You are not smart - at least not nearly as smart as you want everyone here to believe you are. You are gullible and close minded. I bet you believe everything that the media tells you, huh? You do realize that the only reason that steroids were made a Sched III drug was POLITICAL, right? If you want to be against steroids, and present a fact based argument against using, just go with “using could land you in jail”.

Now off you go - I think there are some pro-global warming folks that could use your kind of science.

48

Rainjack,

Again, your shallow and childish insults are reminiscent of my predictions, as are your dismissals of the research that I have presented. I told you up front that you would toss them aside. I don’t recall ANY research articles submitted by you. Can you back up any of your assertions? And I might point out that if I held your research to the same standard as you held mine, I’d be able to make fun of yours to and claim that you never “proved” anything. No shit correlation doesn’t prove causation, but it is very suggestive considering all other things were controlled for. Do you have a degree in a research related field? I spent 4 years dissecting research. These studies are valid. As for my intelligence, at least I’m not stupid enough to inject a chemical into my ass without knowing whether there is research that suggests it might increase my chances of DEATH. All your research and expertise and you don’t even know what a “mortality rate” is. Funny thing, you were very insulting on that point when you were so certain that I didn’t know what I was talking about, but now you don’t even mention that point. As for global warming, where the #$%* did that come from? Here I was talking about AAS research and you come back with global warming? I happen to be very skeptical of the media, but I’ll trust an actual doctor or researcher, who’s methods I can dissect for myself, before I trust some guy who calls himself rainjack or conceit on some roid boy forum. Keep the insults coming, they do well to illustrate your maturity.

As for conceit, here is where I must leave this thread. Honestly, you are saying that a protein supplement is comparable to AAS? That a can of tuna, because it contains protein and might affect nitrogen retention is comparable to exogenous dosing of hormones? Then you have the audacity to accuse me of being naive? Here’s the thing, I want to be big and strong, and I’m willing to work my ass off to get that way. I would love for steroids to be safe and legal. I would love to take a poke in the quad twice a week and gain 30 pounds of solid muscle in 10 weeks. The thing is, when we want something to be true we often dismiss things that contradict our beliefs, much like rainjack dismissed every one of the studies I presented. As much as YOU hate to admit it, you seem to “know” exactly what you want to “know,” that injecting steroids are no different than eating a can of tuna or taking a whey protein shake, they have no side effects, and any study suggesting otherwise is a conspiracy by the media. Between that and the fact that you don’t know what a “mortality rate” is, is proof positive that you do not have all this education that you claim. I learned that the first day of undergrad, and here you claim to have years of grad school in a research field and have never heard of “mortality rate?” Not possible.

Again, I would love the benefits of steroids. For a long time, I looked for reasons to take them. If I were as naive as you guys say I am, I would have juiced quite some time ago because I would have dismissed the research and damned the side effects. There is no doubt that roids make you bigger and stronger. I’ve never argued with that point. But they are dangerous and they are illegal, two facts that are completely lost on almost everyone to post on this thread. But I will leave you alone now. Please understand that I will not be coming back to read your childish and useless insults, or your naive and one sided way of thinking.

49

[quote]gerby wrote:
Rainjack,

Again, your shallow and childish insults are reminiscent of my predictions, as are your dismissals of the research that I have presented. I told you up front that you would toss them aside. [/quote]

Childish insults? You tell me to put my foot in my mouth, and then feign self-righteous disgust? What. Ever. You just said more about you with that statement than you even know.

You act suprised. You try to feed me bullshit, and then turn and say, “See? I told you he wouldn’t eat it”. No shit Sherlock.

What research would I need to present? What assertions have I made in need of empirical proof? That steroids work?

Why do you think AAS is so popular among healthy adult males? Because they work. Surely you don’t need a study to prove that, do you?

What research? Straw man much?

Suggestive? I’m looking for definitive. Suggestive means subjective. And how in the fuck can you say that it was controlled when the test subjects were “supposed” gear heads? Please - this might work in a highschool gym class, but I ain’t buyin’ it.

No - but I don’t need to have a PhD in Ruminant Nutrition to what bullshit smells like, either.

Valid - but highly inconclusive, and even suggestive - as you put it. Hardly something to build a logical argument from.

4 years - that sounds very close to being a college kid majoring in a science of some sort. But that is completely off subject - or is it?

News flash sparky - every day you wake up inreases your chances of death. Breathing increases you chances of death. Eating food increases your chances of death. Did anyone on here ever say that AAS was totally safe? I didn’t see it if they did - and I damn sure didn’t say it.

It’s your life - your choice. My choices don’t affect your life, yet you have no problem sitting in judgement of my choices. And you callme immature.

I was willing to let that one go because I figured you had a very, very shakey ego. I didn’t want to tip it over. BUT - since you asked. When you use the word “higher”, there needs to be something to compare it with. Higher mortality rate than what? Carrot eaters have ahigher mortality rate - than what?

If you can’t underdstand what I was driving at - maybe you need to spend another 4 years in the research. I can’t help you.

You call me childish, yet you continue to display the cognative skills of an infant spider monkey.

Let me explain - Junk science that you are spouting could be well served in the global warming camp - conatact AL Gore if you ever understand the connection.

In short. you have used junk science studies that use subjective terminology to say you have proof of something. The global waming crowd loves junk science. You would fit right in.

Good for you. But you sound an awful lot like the evening news when it comes to AAS. You brag about your experience in research,yet you proudly display crap studies - why?

I don’t want you to trust me, or take my word for anything. I want you to find out for yourself. Unlike you, I don’t posess a God complex that causes me to think I am superior to everyone because I went to a 4 year college, and read a few journals.

Another newsflash here, Einstein - this is an internet forum. There are no rules of engagement. If you can’t handle the fact that I think you are a complete an utter moron, then maybe you would do well to keep your word about leaving the thread.

52

[quote]rainjack wrote:

Oh - and the statement about steroid users having a higher mortality rate is laughable. Last I checked, the mortality rate for humans is 100%.

[/quote]

Except for vampires. By the way, vampires prefer d-bol over deca. (They’re afraid of needles.)

53

[quote]gerby wrote:
(a few long posts of typical anti-steroids rhetoric)
[/quote]

[muttering under my breath]
…pussy!

Gerby, fuck off.

54

First of all Gerby, you are a pussy. Yes, a pussy. That handle itself sounds pussy - what the fuck kind of name is that? Gerby? Sounds like you’re a little gerbil.

You, sir, are a first class fuckwit and a hypocrite.

You said:

[quote]Drugs are indeed a personal choice, and I will never criticize people for using them.
…
I think that it is a good thing for someone thinking about using steroids for the first time to hear…from people who have used…and perhaps some thoughts from somebody who has never used before and doesn’t intend to. But, if you think that he should only hear from the dark side, well, again, we’ll agree to disagree[/quote]

Never criticize people?

Calling steroid users those from “the dark side” is criticism enough for one thing. It is a form of criticism to equate us with evil or ignorance, while you put yourself on a pedestal as some kind of more enlightened being, - which you, sir, are not. All you’re doing is quoting the typical bullshit anti-AAS rhetoric spouted by the media, governments and conservative medical establishment.

You’re saying that name calling is childish? Listen to all the condescending names you have rattled off in your posts to the people on this forum - “meatheads”, “roid heads”, “roid boy forum”. That makes people sound like stereotypical dumb gorillas with nothing in their brains, when it is obvious to see that many of the people on this forum are intelligent, informed and well educated, with in-depth knowledge of the human body and how it works.

Biomechanics, chemistry, exercise science, supplementation, nutrition, everything is all here. We’re not just a buch of dumb meatheads, grunting and injecting needles into our asses, the way you are making it sound.

Now THAT is an insult. You are likening steroid use to rape? I think you have got your priorities VERY wrong, there, dickhead. Rape is an act of sexual violence against someone else; the invasion of another person’s body without consent, and is a highly criminal act. It is a breach of basic human morals to do such things, and it doesn’t need to be recognized as illegal for us to know it’s wrong.

Steroid use is a personal decision made by someone, on what they will do with their OWN body. It is not an act of violence against someone else, and the only thing that makes it criminal is because “the law says so”.

i don’t think those facts are lost to us. Anything is dangerous, especially in excessive amounts. The whole world is full of danger. It’s fuckin’ dangerous to drive your car to work every day. It’s dangerous to fly on a plane, it’s dangerous to eat butter, it’s dangerous to walk around in the wrong neighbourhood. All in all, on the grand scale of things, I think steroid use is safer than many of the every day things that are taken for granted.

The illegality is purely a political thing, mainly to conserve the sanctity of sports (As Bill Roberts said). If you had the background knowledge, you would know this.

In my opinion that is mainly an elitist thing, to keep those who are naturally genetically gifted at the top.

The roids are not the only reason for that extra 30 pounds of muscle, dickhead. We don’t just inject something and then sit on our asses all day watching TV - we bust our asses harder in the gym and are more dedicated and prepared to take it to the next level than many of the “natural boys” who are afraid of Johnny Law or what their wives or friends will think.

55

damn! TELL HIM WHAT HE’S WON, JOHNNY!!! haha i must say… well said!

56

[quote]gerby wrote:
Kruiser wrote:
Jeez Gerby! Speaking of “deeper mental problems”. 4 posts to your name too.

I have never juiced either but I’m not stupid enough to think I could compete on the same level as those that do. It’s a personal choice and nobody cares about your opinion on a subject you know nothing about… Lighten Up!

Don’t worry kruiser, I don’t take this stuff seriously, but I am a big fan of intellectual property rights. When conceit copied from a book and passed it off as his own, I couldn’t help but get upset. This is very similar to the roiders out there who claim that their muscles are “their own” in the sense the drugs had nothing to do with it.

Drugs are indeed a personal choice, and I will never criticize people for using them. Just be honest about how you got those muscles, and just because the roider is 30 pounds bigger than me doesn’t mean anything except he took drugs and I didn’t. However, you can bet that he’ll be condescending, and reduce himself to personal attacks, like many people have in this forum, including you.

We all know that many bodybuilders suffer from depression and body image issues. I don’t know if you do or your friends do, much as you have no idea of I do. By the way, you cared enough about my post to reply to it. I don’t care about the vast majority of posts I read. What’s your point??[/quote]

… Insert seemingly endless Gerby tirade here …

Then:

But I will leave you alone now. Please understand that I will not be coming back to read your childish and useless insults, or your naive and one sided way of thinking.

Soooo…

What’s the verdict Guys??? A Talented Troll or just a Puerile, Petulant, Pussy? I’m going to have to go with College Student. No one else could be so condescending while being so incorrect. Of course, I’d be a bit bombastic too if I had the Great Gerby Genetics. 60 lbs. in two years! Who needs steroids?!? Just thank heredity that it comes so easy for you. Must be nice, except you really can’t take credit.

And just in case you decided to check back in Gerby…

 I'll see Ya at the Posedown!!!

Oh shit, that’s less than five years away for me. I’d better get my ass in “gear”! 8^0 <-Gerby

57

[quote]Kruiser wrote:

Of course, I’d be a bit bombastic too if I had the Great Gerby Genetics. 60 lbs. in two years! Who needs steroids?!? Just thank heredity that it comes so easy for you. Must be nice, except you really can’t take credit.
[/quote]

I think it’s called “puberty”.

58

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Kruiser wrote:

Of course, I’d be a bit bombastic too if I had the Great Gerby Genetics. 60 lbs. in two years! Who needs steroids?!? Just thank heredity that it comes so easy for you. Must be nice, except you really can’t take credit.

I think it’s called “puberty”.

[/quote]

Yup, most definitely a young pup. Although he was most entertaining and it would be interesting to find out what happens in his future when “real life” begins to intrude on his fantasy world I have to say: I’m glad he’s gone. We all have better thing to do. Now, what were we talking about before being so rudely interrupted???

59

conceit, you seem like a good egg, and although this - unfortunately - got trolled into another natural vs steroids war - a lot of good insight came out of it.

that being said, you don’t have to make up alleged emails. you’re smart enough on your own, and whether you work for a bio company or not, there’s plenty of good insight you came up with. here’s a quick google - and i don’t think i’m breaking the rules here, i just googled a cut and pasted sentence from his post, the first link is conceit’s mystery email:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=as+discussed+earlier+in+this+book%2C+esterified+compounds&btnG=Search

60

Test/D-bol … Bread and Butter!

500mg Test e 10-12 weeks
20-30mg D-bol/ed for 4 weeks

Oh, yeah…good to be back here in the T-Nation again. I have missed you guys.