[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Why is it ok to pray to god go heal cancer, but not to restore an amputated limb? Do you see why that artificial division is suspect, given that one can happen spontaneously and one can’t? [/quote]
Are you saying something that happened in the past (amputated limb) and something that is happening now (cancer) is the same.[/quote]
Why did he resurrect Lazurus then? Or was that for a laugh?
Forbes, how would you explain 1 John 14:26 and 1 Corinthians 12:8-13?
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Why is it ok to pray to god go heal cancer, but not to restore an amputated limb? Do you see why that artificial division is suspect, given that one can happen spontaneously and one can’t? [/quote]
Are you saying something that happened in the past (amputated limb) and something that is happening now (cancer) is the same.[/quote]
Why did he resurrect Lazurus then? Or was that for a laugh?[/quote]
Prophecy, probably. I am not up to date on Lazarus being raised from the dead.
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Why is it ok to pray to god go heal cancer, but not to restore an amputated limb? Do you see why that artificial division is suspect, given that one can happen spontaneously and one can’t? [/quote]
Are you saying something that happened in the past (amputated limb) and something that is happening now (cancer) is the same.[/quote]
Why did he resurrect Lazurus then? Or was that for a laugh?[/quote]
Prophecy, I suppose.
What about losing your sight and having it restored? Why would it matter if it occurred in the past or not? If God is omnipotent, surely he could heal amputations as easily as cancer.
[quote]forlife wrote:
What about losing your sight and having it restored? Why would it matter if it occurred in the past or not? If God is omnipotent, surely he could heal amputations as easily as cancer.[/quote]
Surely, as God can do it infinitely easy; however, you have to look at the righteousness of the person praying. Would a righteous person be praying to heal an amputee? Because suffering can be used as penance for our sins. There is a well known Bishop who once was approached by a man who had been suffering for a few years and came to the Bishop in a last ditch effort to rid himself of suffering. When the man asked the Bishop to pray for his suffering to disappear, the Bishop cocked back and slapped the man across his face and rebuked the man, “Why do you ask for the Lord’s gift to be gone from you?”
With cancer, that is an ailment, even though ailments can be used as suffering it can also kill us, so for the respect of life we should try to heal a person (which includes praying). Amputees don’t face the same thing, they process has already happened, they are not in danger of dying.
How would you explain the blind that were healed in the new testament, or the lame that were made to walk?
Desperately trying to laugh at your post, Chris, but it is so utterly morally repugnant and illogical that it has stultified my derision. Indeed if I ever forget that your religion is a mental illness, a plague on humanity, I will come back to your post.
[quote]forlife wrote:
How would you explain the blind that were healed in the new testament, or the lame that were made to walk?[/quote]
Prophecy.
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
Desperately trying to laugh at your post, Chris, but it is so utterly morally repugnant and illogical that it has stultified my derision. Indeed if I ever forget that your religion is a mental illness, a plague on humanity, I will come back to your post.[/quote]
Would you want to explain your precept or are you going to sit on your high horse and look down your nose?
It’s easy to point fingers at onces beliefs, but my religion is the one that takes care of the sick and dying of the world, we shelter the poor and homeless of the world, and we educate the underprivileged children of the world. What does your religion do?
Do I really need to explain what I find disgusting about the idea that disability, sickness, and disease are gifts?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
How would you explain the blind that were healed in the new testament, or the lame that were made to walk?[/quote]
Prophecy. [/quote]
Perhaps, but it negates your earlier point about suffering being good for the soul.
Let’s take another example. A woman just lost her leg in a car accident and is about to die…divine restoration of the leg, like divine remission of cancer, would save her life. Why not?
[quote]Rational Gaze wrote:
Do I really need to explain what I find disgusting about the idea that disability, sickness, and disease are gifts?[/quote]
And I am sure you find killing the elderly who are suffering of old age to be an honorable ideal, as well.
No, I didn’t say disability, sickness, and disease were gifts, I said suffering could be a gift.
I do not look at disability, sickness, and disease as gifts, I consider suffering a gift. However, we have to acknowledge that suffering stems from evil. It stems from the sins of the world. Jesus suffered and his suffering stemmed from evil of the world, but it was a gift to the world at the same time. Again, get off your horse as if you are superior to me because I believe suffering can be a gift. It’s not like are readily helping the suffering in the world.
You just stand on the side lines and point fingers. Good job.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
How would you explain the blind that were healed in the new testament, or the lame that were made to walk?[/quote]
Prophecy. [/quote]
Perhaps, but it negates your earlier point about suffering being good for the soul.
Let’s take another example. A woman just lost her leg in a car accident and is about to die…divine restoration of the leg, like divine remission of cancer, would save her life. Why not?[/quote]
Suffering can be good. I also always offer up my suffering to Jesus.
And amputee and someone that is bleeding out is not the same thing.
It’s not that suffering can’t shape the soul. It’s the logical inconsistency in explaining the suffering. People claim to have their sight restored, their arthritis healed, their cancer removed, etc. but nobody claims to have a limb restored.
It’s pretty obvious why. All of these other ailments can spontaneously remit, and be credited to divine intervention. However, it never happens with limb regeneration since that is impossible in humans. Maybe god only heals the tails of lizards?
[quote]forlife wrote:
It’s not that suffering can’t shape the soul. It’s the logical inconsistency in explaining the suffering. People claim to have their sight restored, their arthritis healed, their cancer removed, etc. but nobody claims to have a limb restored.
It’s pretty obvious why. All of these other ailments can spontaneously remit, and be credited to divine intervention. However, it never happens with limb regeneration since that is impossible in humans. Maybe god only heals the tails of lizards? [/quote]
I guess you’re mistaking me for a fundamentalist again. Both/and.
If someone is healed, there is no reason to think that it is not because of a medical explanation, and there is no reason to believe that Providence isn’t involved. However, medical explanations for the curing of ailments doesn’t mean all miracles now have medical explanations. I have yet to hear a valid explanation for Padre Pio’s stigmata that he had for 50+ years.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Surely, as God can do it infinitely easy; however, you have to look at the righteousness of the person praying. Would a righteous person be praying to heal an amputee? Because suffering can be used as penance for our sins. There is a well known Bishop who once was approached by a man who had been suffering for a few years and came to the Bishop in a last ditch effort to rid himself of suffering. When the man asked the Bishop to pray for his suffering to disappear, the Bishop cocked back and slapped the man across his face and rebuked the man, “Why do you ask for the Lord’s gift to be gone from you?”
[/quote]
That’s just messed up.
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Surely, as God can do it infinitely easy; however, you have to look at the righteousness of the person praying. Would a righteous person be praying to heal an amputee? Because suffering can be used as penance for our sins. There is a well known Bishop who once was approached by a man who had been suffering for a few years and came to the Bishop in a last ditch effort to rid himself of suffering. When the man asked the Bishop to pray for his suffering to disappear, the Bishop cocked back and slapped the man across his face and rebuked the man, “Why do you ask for the Lord’s gift to be gone from you?”
[/quote]
That’s just messed up.
[/quote]
What is messed up about my message? And, you shouldn’t end sentences with prepositions.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Surely, as God can do it infinitely easy; however, you have to look at the righteousness of the person praying. Would a righteous person be praying to heal an amputee? Because suffering can be used as penance for our sins. There is a well known Bishop who once was approached by a man who had been suffering for a few years and came to the Bishop in a last ditch effort to rid himself of suffering. When the man asked the Bishop to pray for his suffering to disappear, the Bishop cocked back and slapped the man across his face and rebuked the man, “Why do you ask for the Lord’s gift to be gone from you?”
[/quote]
That’s just messed up.
[/quote]
What is messed up about my message? And, you shouldn’t end sentences with prepositions.[/quote]
That’s just messed-up, as in… That’s just wrong. There is no preposition when you consider the context and meaning of the words.
The ministry of Jesus was about healing, atonement, salvation. Jesus healed the sick and suffering all over the place, and hold us to do the same. I would have been much more impressed if the bishop rebuked the ‘suffering’ and/or the ‘sickness’. It would have been much closer to the glorious work of Jesus.
That poor guy. I hope he found relief somewhere else.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
It’s not that suffering can’t shape the soul. It’s the logical inconsistency in explaining the suffering. People claim to have their sight restored, their arthritis healed, their cancer removed, etc. but nobody claims to have a limb restored.
It’s pretty obvious why. All of these other ailments can spontaneously remit, and be credited to divine intervention. However, it never happens with limb regeneration since that is impossible in humans. Maybe god only heals the tails of lizards? [/quote]
I guess you’re mistaking me for a fundamentalist again. Both/and.
If someone is healed, there is no reason to think that it is not because of a medical explanation, and there is no reason to believe that Providence isn’t involved. However, medical explanations for the curing of ailments doesn’t mean all miracles now have medical explanations. I have yet to hear a valid explanation for Padre Pio’s stigmata that he had for 50+ years.[/quote]
That’s the thing; why do these miracles never happen, not even once, in cases like amputation where there is no viable alternate explanation?
On stigmata, one obvious explanation is that the wounds are self-inflicted. It might be intentionally fraudulent, or it might be psychosomatic (see research on psychogenic purpuras) where people experience painful bruising, swelling, and bleeding through intact skin.