Not sure I agree here. Myocardial scarring is permenant and does occur in response to excessive cardiomyocyte stretching, but it does appear as if (for some/a degree) of the cardiac enlargement induced via AAS use is reversible. Many case reports would attest to this, as does one new study in particular (I’ll link it soon when I can find it). In some instances however cardiac damage is irreversible, esp if abuse is significant and prolonged.
To be fair, a large dose is generally thought of at 5-600mg+. Medical literature states bodybuilders use 10-100x medically prescribed dosages. The very low end of this statistic would be around 500mg of testosterone equivalent androgen load per week.
Goes to show genetic variability at hand, some are just unlucky. If I’m being honest I find these case reports sketchy at times. I tend to believe many lie to medical practitioners regarding the sheer extent of their use. Furthermore, it’s difficult to dictate the extent of use within an already dead patient who hasn’t disclosed his/her AAS use. I don’t buy the argument “they could’ve had an underlying condition” as we just have so many of these case/anecdotal reports AND we have a cascade of literature detailing potential mechanisms as to why/how anabolic steroids induce cardiovascular damage.
500mg/wk isn’t a safe dose to run year round (unless you’ve got say … PAIS). The difference between testosterone/synthetics IMO probably (compound dependant obviously) isn’t nearly as significant as many make it out to be. I have trouble believing testosterone at 500mg/wk is THAT much safer in comparison to 500mg primo/wk (or safer at all aside from dyslipidemia induced).
Many talk about testosterone vs synthetics in an ill conceded effort to justify running higher dosages year round. Granted some men legitimately do require higher dosages, statistically the majority can probably get by on 100-125mg/wk.
@baka the cardiac damage induced FOR SOME/a very small minority via endurance exercise is a response to very prolonged, extreme training regiments. The cardiac adaptations invoked via exercise alone tend to be adaptive as opposed to maldaptive enlargement with an associated deterioration in cardiac function.
Have you ever had an echocardiogram? I’d suggest getting one if you’ve been on a constant cycle for a verrrry long time.
Hypertrophy is reversible sometimes yes, but I wrote acute heart failure with dilation is irreversible. And I know there can be positive adaptations in the aftermath but the heart won’t ever be near healthy again. But I knew when I link you two guys, I’ll get at least one response to the way oversimplified sentences I wrote haha
I agree with the rest of what you wrote. I object to the notion that they would only refer to gram equivalents as massive doses. Doctors will call 500 mg massive doses as will everybody besides users and people who really know steroid use and literature. Case reports are written mostly by the docs/researchers handling the case.
It’s roughly 4-5x a replacement dose, its a big dose relatively speaking within the realm of medicine (albeit medical literature has legitimately trialed higher dosages of test + synthetics numerous times). In the realm of bodybuilding however 500mg is chump change.
Modern day bodybuilding is all about “who can tolerate the highest dose”. I personally don’t think the current, modern era bodybuilding look is aesthetic at all. The art of bodybuilding would probably gain quite a bit of mainstream traction if they went back to the golden era look as opposed to rewarding sheer size over conditioning and distended, pregnant stomachs.
No, I think they’re stating it in a medical view. There has to be some sort of logical agreement to define massive, steroid use aside.
If TRT is 125-200mg/wk, on the low end and at 10x, that is 1.3g per week. That is massive. Is 500mg massive? No, it would be in between, obviously larger than a medically acceptable dose to keep you within T ranges.
I had an EKG and some weird blood pressure test today (both legs/arms at once). I will shoot for an echo*** to see heart size to debunk irreversible growth too (if ~3~ years is long enough to demonstrate that), specifically for my case as everything is wrapped into a pretty little capped bill anyway. That will tell me, along with cardiovascular function, that 3 years of 500mg test is ok (for my body at least). Results to come…
One thing brought up in my questionnaire while checking in was that family and friends have noticed loss of smell, so, they added in another test tomorrow. Per research, it looks like estrogen/progesterone, but I am seeing a different specialist for that in the morning and it could be something different altogether. (I try to stay at 11-16 E2).
Edit: If the X-rays I took yesterday don’t obliviously display this.
I think it really depends on who it is and what they are actually doing.
You doing 1g test/1g tren a week and anabol for strength training? You might not last long, especially not following protocol (i.e., donation of blood every 56 days, blood work, etc.).
You doing 500mg test and cycling something here and there?
Maybe so… but I’d say the latter has a better shot.
Nonetheless, it’s depressing to see going from 98kg at peak to 72.2kg after dropping my last cycle (DBOL) and getting cut from test altogether.
Each body is wired differently, as to why Arnold is still alive, and we can’t say this will cause it or this won’t cause it as there is no definitive proof and no research, just anecdotal stories, and even then you never know their true usage.
If I get back on 500, I’ll do a couple more cycles to maintenance at 100kg and that’s it. If 500 can’t maintain with diet, so be it. I will still use 500 and stop cycling everything else, making smaller gains over a longer duration than a huge spike in 4-6 weeks.
Ok I think I got it why two people misinterpreted my statements.
Dilation is not the end point of hypertrophy. Dilation occurs after the heart is so hypertrophied that it can’t pump enough blood. It’s called dilated cardiomyopathy. It directly leads to heart failure.
Sorry for the misinterpretation, I wasn’t aware you were referring sole to DCM. I was stating cardiac hypertrophy resulting from AAS as an independent entity can potentially be reversible. That being said, when cardiac parameters return to normal, myocardial fibrosis and/or microvascular alterations are likely still present and may predispose the user to a higher risk of fatal arrhythmia down the line.
If you are doubting the effects on the heart from AAS, please take a look at this study.
There is a clear difference in the hearts of the users vs non-users. Now the users were fairly heavy users (average dose of 675 mg/wk of testosterone equivalent and average length of administration was 468 weeks).
I wish they had each user’s dose and length with the little dots to see a bit how much dose dependence there was, but there is probably too much genetic variability to really get much out of the low sample size.
Anyway in all seriousness OP, you are part of the problem with steroid users that make responsible users look bad.
I am sorry you have these issues and I did provide you an excellent doctor that can help you.
However, your obscure arrogance and denial of the danger of running 500mg (!!!) as a TRT (one of those Ts stands for therapy by the way) regiment leaves me flabbergasted.
You are denying we have enough knowledge to say that is dangerous. You are horribly incorrect.
I wish you the best, and I encourage you to face your bias.
I would highly rebuke that statement. My primary doctor was in the states and knew a lot about sports medicine, as to why he would overlook me. Further, I am not in an inpatient hospital study to determine why I need that much, not “self-medicating” or injecting who knows what that was bought from Iran and shipped from China.
My base was
125mg test-e (once a week)
125mg test-e twice weekly
(2x weekly)
125mg test-e + 125mg Primo (IM)
250mg test-e + 125mg Primo (IM) until it was discontinued (a total of 9 months from (3) to now)
250mg test-e
I did a few cycles of prohormones, DBOL, and ended those cycles with legit pharma-grade Primo (5mg caps from a pharmacy prescribed to me) for cycles of 50-150mg, spaced out over months.
I am undergoing pretty much every test in the books, with today, my thyroid (T3/T4 [TSR]) getting tested (that was an odd feeling, as unlike many in the pharma community, I didn’t expect it and though I was coming down with COVID with the flushness).
So… to call me a part of the problem… Nah. I pay good money for medical care and do not go UG; I am checked by doctors every month (or was) and donated blood every 56 days (almost in the 5-gallon club).
I would say that I am one of the most responsible AAS users, if there’s such a thing…
This stay will check every single hormone as well as internal organs.
Who here in this pharma community can say that they get their neck arteries checked every now and then? EKG’s? X-rays? MRIs? And (soon going to see my heart size after 3 years of “abuse”) measure heart and other vital organs?
…and I’m the one that makes “responsible users” look bad… are you deflecting?
I used to pay $750 in food and about $200 in meds (a lot is covered by insurance, the Aromasin is the killer as it can only be given to women with cancer/a preventative) a month to get from 76kg (pre-TRT) to ~73~ on my way up to 98kg (DBOL) and back down to 92kg lean. While I know money doesn’t buy time, it can help tell me when enough is enough before it’s too late to give me the decision to quit if it’s 1 in 5 or 1 in 1000.
First post was scared to take the pharma step. This was just a rant.
Every body is different, and, we’re about to see what my body can handle with this intensive testing going on over the next several days to two weeks (or more) after abusing 500mg test and cycling prohormones, Primo IM, DBOL once, and Primo oral.
This post is just a rant that the way up (~73~ kg beginning 125mg test-e to 98kg on 500mg test-e and DBOL, down to 92kg after that cycle) is a lot slower than you think on AAS, even with proper diet. But, in a matter of months, you can go from 92 to 72kg, hence the title.
It’s also a rant and something to look forward to once I am on again.
Yeah this post I was referring to.
That’s fair enough. I was just curious as if your intent was to get some advice on your 500mg TRT you were arguing every point that was being made.
But if it was just a rant and a way of documenting your journey then that’s fair enough.
At the end of the day it’s your body and your on the right path to working out what’s going on with it which is a hell of a lot more then I can say for a lot of people that come onto this forum asking for advice and arguing against all that is given from some pretty bloody experienced users.
So I noticed you mentioned ‘abusing 500mg test’ above. Do you now believe that maybe it is a rather high weekly dosage and may cause you issues? Or was that a bit of a dig at the guys here? Lol.
From what i have seen there are people that do need rather high weekly TRT doses due to the way they metabolize the test although this is still keeping them within range. Your test is 3 times the upper range before your feel normal which is bazaar.
I hope this hospital stay finds the underlying issue so you are able to run your TRT at a normal dose. I can only imagine how your feeling right now. And of course your heart will thank you for it.
Dig at the guys here as the debate is 500mg test-e, not AAS abuse with a dozen other compounds that keep getting referenced.
It is odd. My T levels can be within normal (600-1100) and I can’t feel normal, mentally. Others have brought up benzo use, but they have never had an effect one day I could’ve snapped in 2015-2016 (which is doubtful with a decade of use at the time, in my non-doctor opinion).
Well, I got my first GH test (to test the function of GH if that’s an issue).
And if it does come down to an androgen insensitivity syndrome, I could build all the muscle I want off 500mg to 2000mg and it not have any negative effect elsewhere as the androgen receptors are malfunctioning there.
