T Nation

Depressing — The Road Down is Much Quicker than the Road Up

I can’t give specific dates here, but it’s a pretty fairly accurate depiction.

I first started T replacement when I went T-sub-80 and 125mg a week wasn’t effective at clearing brain fog, nor was 125mg + 125mg Primo, nor was 250mg + 125mg primo (later to be discontinued as IM); but, 500mg/wk finally cleared brain fog and I was on it for T-replacement at T 3000-3400.

While I could gain muscle, I was primarily on it because of the cognitive inabilities faced and 500mg only seemed to work.

I was on 500mg for 2-3 years before my primary care physician changed.

During this time I went from about a lean 16% 80kg to a solid 95kg 12% before I could really tweak my diet more to finetune it to be 10% and possibly break 100kg in time.

My new doctor felt this dose was unsafe, so he pulled me off cold turkey—which is unsafer than running 500mg as I was doing bloodwork every 3 months keeping everything except T in check (cholesterol, RBC, etc.; only creatine would spike at times, and that’s natural with the breakdown of tissue).

It’s been about 3 months with no T and running sub-65 levels now. I have a totally shot endocrine system and can never recover, which I’m fine with, along with the 1-2M sperm count (yay, free vasectomy, as I never did hCG… nor did I see a size reduction in testicles).

I tried to balance my diet to retain as much muscle as I can, but, the nutrition partitioning said, “Eat muscle NOW and anything excess, create fat.” I adjusted from 5000 calories to 4000 when I put a little fat on, then cut back to 2500, and then had to cut down to 1800.

In that little of time, I went from 95kg/12% to 76kg/17%. Talk about being CATABOLIC!

I am doing an inpatient hospital stay to determine why I need T so high to clear my mind, as, with it being dangerously low, my mental decline has gone down so much.

The first instance I noticed was doing math for a story I wrote that was 13+8… easy to do in the head, right? Wrong. I did it, couldn’t do it. I did it on fingers, forgot. Drew lines and then counted the lines. When I published the story which went live for about 8 hours, I put 23. I had to do an editorial correction.

Now, while that’s not bad… I learned to drive in the States and only drove there from 16 to 18. At 20, I was finally able to drive in Japan after getting my license. My first day, I made a mistake and drove into the wrong lane; corrected, and never did it again, driving another 10 odd years just fine. Being this low on test, I reverted back to that same mistake of turning into the wrong lane… almost causing a head-on.

So, while I want to fix my cognitive issues again… I sure hope that I can regain the muscle much faster than it took to build as it went away a hell of a lot quicker than I got it, even on that high of test and such a huge caloric intake.

Having to face the mental challenges is depressing enough, but seeing my skin hang with fat after how hard I worked (and how much money I put into food to get that intake) compounds it.

Hopefully, after my hospital study, the endocrinologist can find what’s wrong where I either don’t need 500mg and it’s something else, or, allows me to go back on 500mg soon… cause living life like this sucks.

/end rant :slight_smile:

500mg? That seems excessive considering your T levels were like ~3x upper end of normal?
What was free T like? I think that would be pretty damn important. And maybe an androgen could have helped with brain fog (Mesterelone).

Your situation seems serious. Contact Dr Mark Gordon.

I don’t know what my condition is, but T levels of even 1500 didn’t clear my brain fog.

It was great anabolic, but I definitely couldn’t process things as clearly as 500mg; it was like having my eyes wide open.

I forgot what my free T was last tested (and it’s already been forwarded to the endocrinologist in charge of my inpatient stay), while doctor hunting throughout these 3-4 months, but he wouldn’t give me double 250 or even a single 250 in a week as after the first 250mg shot I got a blood draw 5 days later and was at 3400 (even though 250mg twice-weekly evened me out at ~3000). So I did get a little boost (250mg) in the middle and did see a mental cognitive incline from before, but it’s going down now.

I’m in Japan where the only “anabolic” now is testosterone (Primo was discontinued in IM form but does come in 5mg tablets with a max of 20mg, which does slightly help for whatever reason on top of 500mg–but as it is an oral, I would only use it in 20-100mg daily “blasts” for 8 weeks max and then take 3 months off).

I wish there were better treatment protocols for TRT here, but there aren’t. Japan went by the 80s until about 2 years ago by providing methyltestosterone if you didn’t want injections (very harsh, but was nice to use as a pre-workout from time to time).

I’d say we’re still in the 90s or so when it comes to TRT as it’s 1) 125mg every week or 2) 250mg every 3 weeks with 1 injection of 5000-10000iu hCG once a month instead of the better known protocol of 250iu E3D. However, I wouldn’t use hCG anyway as it wouldn’t help anything except keep testis size (which I wasn’t affected by) as well as fertility (which I already have 1 too many kids already and 1-2M sperm count seems to be OK [so far so good, finger’s crossed]).

Japan, for the most part, is a decade or two behind in everything compared to the US because once it’s FDA approved, it still has to go through Japan’s FDA for trials. For example, it wasn’t until 2016-2017 that Japan got oxy/fentanyl, and the only case that both are used for (even 5mg for the former) is cancer with a maximum span one can be on it 3 months (so you better guess when you’re gonna die from stage 4 correctly so your prescription doesn’t ‘end’ and you die in agony from withdrawal + pain). Tramadol is the only approved pain medication here as there is an anti-abuse chemical in it, and even then, that’s hard to get (unless you’re assertive that you want it and not Aspirin).

In my inpatient stay, they will be doing MRIs almost daily (even though I know it’s not a pituitary problem because I got checked for that before even going on TRT; I just think the hospital wants to rack up a bill to get paid), blood tests for full hormone panel (to include cortisol, estrogen, insulin, etc., that could effect the brain functions which that much exogenous testosterone seemed to fix), as well as look at medications I’m on (Xanax, Clonazepam, and Rohyphonol [as I said, we are decades behind and the ‘date rape’ drug is available here and will knock me out], as well as Tramadol for pain) to see if they are counteracting testosterone in the brain somehow.

No anxiety, because of the anti-anxiety drugs… but I theorize that there is a potential “block” (to an extreme) on them, but they are needed, and testosterone bypasses that block. If so, it would be a great combo to run in excess with 0 anxiety.

It’s up to one of the leading endocrinologists here in Japan to determine whether 500mg is safe or not (which, if I eat good and check my levels, theoretically should be). Otherwise, it’ll be doctor hunting for at least 250mg and doctor hunting to double-up on Primo to take as needed.

Funny thing is, steroids are completely legal here. I can get anything shipped here in powder or pill form. The only problem is, syringes are highly illegal and good luck getting your hands on any (vets have even said “no way”, even if they look the other way while I “stole” a handful so I could self-medicate testosterone and try others, like tren, when I get back up to having as much muscle mass/strength that I did).

I guess your name fits you. You’re aware 500mg is not TRT lol that’s a real big cycle, and you went on it for years? All the bloodwork in the world would have not saved you in the end.

Hope you find what’s wrong, but 500mg won’t be the answer. And you have to accept that you’ll never be 100 kgs lean, ever in your life.


Did I understand you correctly ? You take 3 different benzos and have cognitive problems? No shit :smiley: I guess you do everything doctor tell you to do, like 3 year long cycle not being your decision but doctors.


Know some Japanese, aye?

Yes, I realize that. But, I did propose a hypothetical of “what is TRT” before… is it a numbers game or how you feel? If I didn’t feel like my best on a typical TRT dose, isn’t 500mg my TRT? It’s also why I post here, because I use TRT (500mg) as well as dabble in a lot of orals.

I don’t know, I got up to where I did and was pretty happy with seeing veins and cuts… I think with upping my diet and balancing out cardio (taking advantage of “TRT”) to achieve sub-10% at 100kg is quite possible (especially since I use oral albuterol to cut cut too–clen sounded too scary).

The odd thing was, before I dropped off the map (sub-300 to sub-80 before treatment) is that even on the benzos, I had clarity. So, I wouldn’t be quick to judge on that aspect as you can’t see inside my brain and how they effect me.

The 500mg was my decision (I aggressively kind of forced him to up it over a span of 6 months till I felt good) as he was the only doctor willing to prescribe it.

I told my wife not to sue and told him I’d never think of it if there are negative effects (i.e., death) as the clarity pre-“TRT” returned; which, I don’t believe is benzo related because I’ve been on them 6 years at the point of starting with clarity not being an issue and it only happened when my testosterone dipped sub-80 that I started having cognitive issues, which only testosterone cleared, on the same doses that I took for 6+ years (now over a decade)—explain that.

I’m fine with dying in 10 years than living in that state for 1 more day (even though my family would miss me, they’re more than taken care of). But, there are no more doctors to pick from that will give 500mg (everyone I saw said the doc giving me 500mg was out of his mind), unless the endocrinologist gives me a pass after this hospital stay.

Furthermore, you gotta be a special kind of person to not understand the cognitive issues faced (unless you skipped it).

My brain reverted back 10 years in driving on the opposite side of the road when I drove in the US for only 2 years and in Japan for ~12~. Also, I couldn’t do 13+8 in my head, and fingers, where I had to physically draw lines, count them, forgot the count, and wrote in an editorial “23” (which had to be corrected, of course) that took about 3 minutes to do.

Benzos do not do this. If they do, that’s the first I’ve ever heard of it, but never experienced that first-hand, especially after prolonged use.

I feel great on ecstasy, that doesn’t make it healthy.

Can you drive and do math on ecstasy? (I’m sure you could, but that wouldn’t be a great recreational use of it… also it’s a DUI if you do.)

I can, I have enhanced cognitive abilities on E thanks to the amphetamines in it. Still won’t take it daily.

Looks like I need to switch from “TRT” to ecstasy then as I can’t even do 1st grade math when I am at near 0 testosterone, let alone process driving.

So, there’s another issue going on or, as my proposed TRT discussion before, is TRT a numbers or feelings game as TRT isn’t just about muscle, but also about fixing many other things.

I’ll be getting a full workup.

I could, from research, have partial androgen insensitivity syndrome, or was never aware of it from the beginning until T dropped so much (never had facial hair and now I’m like a bear on my chest [shave though] and have a full beard).

That could explain why I need T-3000… because it fixes the brain issue.

I don’t know what internal damage T-3000 can do (if I don’t have PAIS), but on paper, I am healthy as can be from blood tests.

Doing the math for food, you might be right though. I was spending about $750 per month on just myself to eat chicken, steak, fish, and (better cut) pork for my meals, to maintain and gain.

Even though rice is relatively cheap here ($13 for 5kg), brown rice isn’t… which was my go-to at about $30-40 per 3kg bag.

I’d also do fresh egg whites which (I didn’t buy, but taking a guess, ~$2 a day for 10 eggs alone) for breakfast too.

My diet to get to 92kg/12% was clean. It was not PopTarts and McDonald’s as I had to take into consideration “TRT” dosing and had to eat the cleanest possible.

…and that was 4500-5000 calories. If I wanted to reach 100kg, I’d probably have to double that because my bone structure isn’t big, so the weight alone would be from muscle (my wrists are so small that they don’t look good with a watch on, but I didn’t need to wrap them until I started repping over 315lbs lbs on military base and 140kg at off base gyms).

It kinda looked weird stretching out mediums and having pencil forearms (as the muscle belly is so short there).

But, I might agree with you at not being able to reach 100kg/less than 10%, but only because food would be an issue at that point and I don’t think my wife would appreciate $1200+ for just me. :wink:

Take this as face value as it’s a forum, I’m not going to post pictures at this weight as I have identifiable tattoos, and really could care less if you believe me or not (as I see this a lot on here when it comes to diet) as I know it’s true and so did people personally around me (who also knew I was on 500mg)… I would gain nearly every week over the 3~ years… a couple grams at a time, but, I do think I would’ve plateaued at some point because of diet and that would’ve been it unless I was willing to spend more.

Edit: I’m also 5’7" so there could be a limitation, but, on that dose and diet, I think anything is possible (especially dabbling in orals, as mentioned).

Can I see what 5’7" 92kg and 12% BF looks like? I’m same height and weight but nowhere near 12%. I kind of wonder what that would look like. I do think your height is a limitation for that lofty goal.

Really jacked.

@baka you are not on TRT right now right? Damn, you should consult another doctor. indeed this is not good. Also, i’m pretty sure you had other issues than just low T.

Probably you could reach these 100kgs, but would that be smart? I’m sure you know being on primo, 500mg for 3 years had a toll on your body, even if you didn’t feel like it.

And what else are you taking that you’re not telling us? This is crazy man ahahah. If you get on a regular TRT protocol, you’ll gain back mass fore sure, and you could be cut and big (not as big as you’d like, because I think you suffer from image issues and have a distorted view of what a good physique is, considered what you’ve done)

Because you have to understand this is crazy. Even pros, with blessed genetics in regards to resilience to anabolics, don’t do that. They are not on 500 all the time. And most of them don’t take as much as you’d think they are…

Also man you were taking test + primo and were fatter, and less big than me as a natty and I’m not a specimen and a half. For how long did you do that before going 500 mg? Did you take any other stuff before that?

Woaw that is crazy! And how much is white rice? Couldn’t you eat that or noodles or something?

Cruise dose for pros is often 500 mg a wk. I know a few high level powerlifters, and 500 mg/wk is pretty standard in that sport. TBH, 500 is kinda on the low end. I know one guy who is high level that uses less, but it is still like 300, and he is on anadrol most of the time too. Many are cruising on a gram.

The pros are fairly consistent in downplaying their gear usage to make it seem as their genetics are better. They use a lot.

For example on this. Kevin Leverone has said what he used in a YouTube video, say that amount was X. Then he was on another YouTube video with his old coach. The coach starting talking about his protocols and it seemed the true dosage was 3X. Lying about or downplaying gear usage is very common. These guys aren’t running moderate cycles. It is a competition about who can be the freakiest, freakiest comes with a price.

I am not saying they don’t have great genetics. 99% of people would not look like an on stage IFBB pro with the same about of gear.

Basically, this, really…

But in all reality, it’s not too far off from your profile picture (stature wise). A little larger delts and a more filled in lower chest (some can’t get that, so genetics may hold you back there)–the one picture, if I did share it (which I won’t), would make your abs look better because of shadowing and I’m not a “poser” (in that I don’t have the technique to pose down to get everything ‘flexed’), but a tad bit tighter skin. Veins popping out of shoulders, biceps, triceps, and forearms (with some [maybe major?] like straws) as well as quads and calves (just 2 prominent ones on the calves though).

I did and the other doctor felt sympathy and gave me a 250mg shot midway through, but, I was cut off cold turkey maybe 4 months ago?

Could be about 5 now because I know I was pulled off and then had to wait 3 months for 1 hospital stay which was supposed to be late July, but thanks to socialized medicine, it would’ve overlapped 2 months so I would’ve gotten billed for all of July and August when it was only 2 days in July and 8-15 in August (essentially making my bill $2000 as opposed to $350ish). I don’t have my records on me, but know I got a 250mg shot about a month or so ago otherwise, I couldn’t function at the capacity I am right now (but it is dropping… I almost locked my dog in the car when she was in the front seat today).

My inpatient stay for a study starts on Monday (Sept. 7), where I’ll hopefully at least get a 125mg shot the first day.

I was only on Primo injections for about 9 months of 125mg/wk. The rest of Primo I took over the 3 years, I would stockpile a 90 day supply of Primo (20mg/day) from 2 doctors to run it as a cycle at 100mg/day (150mg was too harsh and I felt that!).

Posted all meds I take and took. But did dabble in prohormones for a cycle or two before ordering real stuff (D-Bol, etc.)… but we’re talking like 4-6 week cycles spaced out 2-4 months over 3-4 years here.

I hope I gain back a lot of what I had, if I can’t get back on 500mg due to muscle memory and the amount of pure money I consumed (not to mention the time).

Definitely not. I was treating my mindset with this dose and nothing more.

Because it’s anabolic (obviously), I would grow and grow and lose fat when wanted; I never shot to get bigger and bigger because I saw myself as small (it got annoying when I stretched my mediums out cause I almost had to go larges and even wear a large during workouts because the pump, buying a whole new wardrobe)… but I never intended on getting Schwarzenegger big as I never wanted to compete… just strong and big.

This sentiment is backed up if you go up to where I talk about posing and pictures, I literally have less than 10 and that was before I started each TRT “protocol” (from a twig) or whatnot to see growth (to the last one when I knew I was coming off cold turkey as a goal to shoot for again)… the last one that I would show, if I didn’t have identifying marks, would appear a bit larger and cut than @blshaw, if Iearned how to flex at once while taking a selfie; not to harp on anyone, but I went to the gym to workout, not to pose in the mirror like the physique guys and take selfies like the Instagram guys.

This is not true. There are MANY people cruising on 400mg (some, I’d say even higher). While it’s anecdotal, and the only proof I have of this is that steroid Doctor that goes around the world all the time (forget his name), he has ran into many running that dose for decades. I would believe it, too. I mention Schwarzenegger before, because you know the guy did more than 500 on a cruise alone and he’s probably on a modest 150-200 now to have that much muscle at his age now.

No, I was skinny fat. No muscle, etc. I’ll be honest: I couldn’t get past 135 for reps (over 5 [something SERIOUS wrong with that there]) on the bench adjusting diet, etc., for months before I got my testosterone checked.

That was me at about 70kg/16%. I started 125mg test/wk for about 2 months. Then 125mg + 125mg primo (as I still didn’t “feel” right) for about 3 months. Then 250mg test + 125mg primo for about 2-3 months. Then, primo IM was discontinued, where I was on 500mg for 3~ years (I wish I could give exact timespans here or had an English medical record to know specific dates on the shots).

I stayed at about 17% for a good year as I don’t think my body adjusted to the hormones to burn fat, and, I skipped out on cardio a lot, plus my diet wasn’t as good as it has been the former 2.5 years (on lock, strict, etc., with 1 cheat meal a week).

The one thing I can tell you from that year is I went from barely doing 135 on the bench to reaching 225x14 (I never really wanted to go over 2 plates then so I just increased reps and sets while decreasing rest time for ‘cardio’).

I do regret not logging my weight at all and only bodyfat every 6 months (as I didn’t care about that; as, like I said, I don’t have a body image… I just had a goal to get bigger and stronger and have more endurance). I only logged my workouts for the first 3 years (workout, sets, reps, weight) and then got tired of doing that and just doing what I want to do when my body felt ready to do it. I haven’t logged workouts in like 2+ years as it can drastically make rest times longer than necessary.

I only started prohormones (1 cycle) about a 3 months in because I was scared of them. I did maybe 1 cycle that year to get a jump start, as maybe, I did feel weak and wanted to be what I knew I could as quickly as possible had I had natural testosterone.

Once I got up to doing 225 for reps on incline is when I started doing cycles of adding Primo (oral) and D-BOL. But, they were spaced out and I believe I recovered from them (I know they can take a toll, but your liver is resiliant–I’d take NAC, TUDCA, and a Japanese herb called ukon for liver before, during and after, along with other vitamins and Omega 3s).

Cheap white rice that you need to wash to get the starch off is $13 for 5kg. If you don’t want to wash it and want a better taste (I can’t tell the difference, but Japanese can), you can go from $15 to $50+ (for small family owned farms that’ve been around years). I just get the cheapest brown rice (3kg/$30-40).

This, @aldebaran. A LOT more than you think use significantly more than the standard 200mg TRT dose (at a minimum, 2x) to cruise on or they simply couldn’t keep the strength/size.

Fortunately, my weight, blood pressure, and all blood tests have been logged over the 3 years (4-5 getting TRT locked in with the first 2 being testing lower doses to getting E2 just right each adjustment) I was cruising on 500mg test because in Japan you have to go into a clinic to get a shot administered (it’s illegal to possess syringes).

As such, I had to weigh in and take BP each time. So, I should get those records and record my weight gain from like 70kg (skinny fat) to my heaviest at 97kg (water weight on D-BOL, which my doc knew about, which surprisingly didn’t cause BP to spike as everyone mentions) and back down to 92kg after that cycle.

Had a heart attack reading this