Dairy Increases Disease

Diet and Nutrition
41

[quote]vroom wrote:
Reef, that’s pretty interesting. It’s not the same as the other stuff cited, but certainly cool – it may help a lot of people!

I’m also snickering a bit, because you aren’t going to be making friends with the crowd the says milk is no good unless it isn’t pastuerized…[/quote]

It is a very weak connection. It also doesn’t show how your intestinal flora is filled with bacteria. It would help most people to add helpful colonies to their digestive tracts in the form of acidophilus or yogurt cultures.

If MAP is only found in 2% of all pasteurized milk, and Crohn’s disease seems to be comprised of over 90% intestinal MAP flora, it implies that the overgrowth of MAP is due to other factors, not due to milk consumption. It isn’t like they got Crohn’s from milk and to imply such is false and misleading.

I think it would be great to also make it clear that your intestinal health is a war of good bacteria and negative on a daily basis.

42

It’s actually a very strong connection. This bacterium causes an almost identical disease in livestock and even primates. There are many babies even these days getting Crohn’s. They have not even begun to eat solid food. The only common environmental factor they have is milk. Other studies have found MAP in breast milk, so it’s definitely a possible way to be passed on. The incidence of Crohn’s is very high in milk-drinking countries. However in India, where milk is boiled before it’s consumed, it’s very low.

The article does not say that over 90% of the intestinal flora is comprised of MAP. It says that MAP was found in over 90% of patients when their intestines were biopsied.

If only it was as easy as taking some yogurt or probiotics. This bacterium is very difficult to eradicate. It’s in the same family as TB (hence the name). The only successful way they’ve found is through taking 2 antibiotics (biaxin and mycobutin) simultaneougly for upto 3 years.

43

Well reef, do cows eat soybeans as part of their feed? Given that it is a product of crop rotation, I would bet that they do. Do alot of babies these days consume soy based formulas? Yes they do. So there is one similarity for you. And since I already have something against soy products, that is an easier connection for me to believe.

Plus as it was stated before, we are the only mammals that drink cows milk, other than calves, but then again, aren’t calves supposed to drink cows milk?
Seriously, the reasoning that is flying around on this thread is persuading me to fold up my very own tinfoil hat.

And for the smart guy that likes to read websites from the lunatic fringe groups- Try using ebscohost or some other acedemic search instead of google. Make sure you refine it to peer reviewed articles and journals. Another thing to keep in mind is that just because something comes with a works cited page doesn’t mean that the author has maintained the fidelity or intention of the origional information.

Thats why the worhs cited exists aside from preventing plagarism, so that a reader can check an article against the origional info.

44

[quote]Reef wrote:
It’s actually a very strong connection. This bacterium causes an almost identical disease in livestock and even primates. There are many babies even these days getting Crohn’s. They have not even begun to eat solid food. The only common environmental factor they have is milk. Other studies have found MAP in breast milk, so it’s definitely a possible way to be passed on. The incidence of Crohn’s is very high in milk-drinking countries. However in India, where milk is boiled before it’s consumed, it’s very low.

The article does not say that over 90% of the intestinal flora is comprised of MAP. It says that MAP was found in over 90% of patients when their intestines were biopsied.

If only it was as easy as taking some yogurt or probiotics. This bacterium is very difficult to eradicate. It’s in the same family as TB (hence the name). The only successful way they’ve found is through taking 2 antibiotics (biaxin and mycobutin) simultaneougly for upto 3 years.[/quote]

I think you missed the point I was making. The proliferation of MAP is due to more factors than the original bacteria simply being present. You may have the bacteria in you right now without drinking milk. Whatever defects in your overall health or diet that would allow that particular bacteria to grow is the issue, not the bacteria simply being present.

Otherwise, every single incident of anyone having MAP in their body would produce this disease. You probably have staph strains somewhere on your body as well. The health factors that keep that from becoming a significant infection is the point I am making.

45

Also, this:

[quote]Researchers discovered 92 per cent of patients with Crohn’s had MAP. Previous findings by the same group of scientists found MAP present in two per cent of pasteurized milk sold in stores.

“The discovery that the MAP bug is present in the vast majority of Crohn’s sufferers means it is almost certainly causing the intestinal inflammation,” concluded the study. [/quote]

…brings up the question of how it can be considered the absolute cause of the inflammation when it isn’t present in all patients with the disease? What about the other 8% who don’t have this bacteria present but still have Crohn’s? It implies that MAP is more than likely a factor, but the cause? MAP may cause inflammation, but nothing here shows that it causes Crohn’s disease. To then claim that milk causes Crohn’s is too far of a leap.

46

The bottom line is this: There are many, many experts inc nutritionists, MDs and scientists who are perfectly aware of the disease causing potential of dairy, however, the public is largely kept hidden from this information because of the influence the dairy industry has on the whole matter inc the economic influence also.

Dig deeper and you will see.

47

o.k. You are right. Dairy is bad and there is a money/power driven conspiracy to cover it up. In fact- I am in on it.Thats where I learned how to counter all of your ammo. Now we have to quit discussing this or THEY will get US!

48

Rich, now you are spreading a conspiracy theory dude. If you are finding this “info” online… you have to realize that a lot of folks have agendas or personal beliefs that they like to push.

Believe me, if any reasonable proof comes along, the medical community and general media will be more than happy to publish it. What would get more readership than a headline blaring that mom’s across the nation are killing their children with food choices.

49

This is for the Americans out there:

Is it common to see labelling for Bovine Growth Hormone (BGH) on your milk and/or dairy products in the United States?

Apparently Monsanto has stopped filing lawsuits against milk/dairy producers that were labelling their products BGH-free. So are any of you noticing this labelling, and if so is your purchasing effected by it?

Recombinant Bovine Growth Hormone is banned here in Canada, so I was just curious as to the level of consumer awareness/concern about it down in the states.

Cheers,

Soup

50

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Reef wrote:
It’s actually a very strong connection. This bacterium causes an almost identical disease in livestock and even primates. There are many babies even these days getting Crohn’s. They have not even begun to eat solid food. The only common environmental factor they have is milk. Other studies have found MAP in breast milk, so it’s definitely a possible way to be passed on. The incidence of Crohn’s is very high in milk-drinking countries. However in India, where milk is boiled before it’s consumed, it’s very low.

The article does not say that over 90% of the intestinal flora is comprised of MAP. It says that MAP was found in over 90% of patients when their intestines were biopsied.

If only it was as easy as taking some yogurt or probiotics. This bacterium is very difficult to eradicate. It’s in the same family as TB (hence the name). The only successful way they’ve found is through taking 2 antibiotics (biaxin and mycobutin) simultaneougly for upto 3 years.

I think you missed the point I was making. The proliferation of MAP is due to more factors than the original bacteria simply being present. You may have the bacteria in you right now without drinking milk. Whatever defects in your overall health or diet that would allow that particular bacteria to grow is the issue, not the bacteria simply being present.

Otherwise, every single incident of anyone having MAP in their body would produce this disease. You probably have staph strains somewhere on your body as well. The health factors that keep that from becoming a significant infection is the point I am making.[/quote]

I should have mentioned that the MAP is believed to be the trigger for the disease. The individuals who acquire the disease obviously have some type of genetic predisposition to it. They have found some genes responsible for the disease. This is why not everyone who is exposed to the bacteria develops Crohn’s.

51

[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
Well reef, do cows eat soybeans as part of their feed? Given that it is a product of crop rotation, I would bet that they do. Do alot of babies these days consume soy based formulas? Yes they do. So there is one similarity for you. And since I already have something against soy products, that is an easier connection for me to believe.

Plus as it was stated before, we are the only mammals that drink cows milk, other than calves, but then again, aren’t calves supposed to drink cows milk?

Seriously, the reasoning that is flying around on this thread is persuading me to fold up my very own tinfoil hat.

And for the smart guy that likes to read websites from the lunatic fringe groups- Try using ebscohost or some other acedemic search instead of google. Make sure you refine it to peer reviewed articles and journals. Another thing to keep in mind is that just because something comes with a works cited page doesn’t mean that the author has maintained the fidelity or intention of the origional information.

Thats why the worhs cited exists aside from preventing plagarism, so that a reader can check an article against the origional info.[/quote]

But soy has not been found to contain MAP whereas cow’s milk has.

52

If anyone wants, I can send you links of patients on the MAP antibiotic protocol who now believe they are cured of Crohn’s. They no longer suffer symptoms. Some have even mentioned that their colonoscopy shows no evidence of Crohn’s on a microscopic level.

53

[quote]Reef wrote:
I should have mentioned that the MAP is believed to be the trigger for the disease. The individuals who acquire the disease obviously have some type of genetic predisposition to it. They have found some genes responsible for the disease. This is why not everyone who is exposed to the bacteria develops Crohn’s.
[/quote]

So, explain to me why I should avoid milk when I have been drinking it for years and have no disease?

54

Okay, this MAP stuff is even missing the point.

It isn’t the freaking milk, it’s a bacteria in some milk that appears to affect those that are already susceptible to it.

The article noted that pasteurization to eliminate the bacteria would be a viable solution to the presence of the bacteria.

So, lets look for something with the milk itself?

Otherwise, hell, anything that bacteria or mold can infest can be claimed to be bad for you…

55

This subject is far too complex to be settled in this forum, clearly.

I do think you’re all pretty much right, in your own ways though. Milk has been unnecessarily villainized in a very generic and broad way by a lot of groups with special interests. (Vegans come to mind. Also known as the most unhealthy people you’ll ever meet.) However, the milk industry is one of the largest industries in the world, and as such, has many means of protection (Examine food labels closely, not only is the sale of milk directly a huge industry, food additives make up a massive proportion of milk sales, and as such the formulas of most major food manufacturers fall under the domain of milk’s net of protectionism). So on both sides of the essential argument you have people skewing the facts. Also accepting that the “actual facts” still aren’t known. We’re essentially still at a very early stage of understanding when it comes to these matters, this includes ‘experts’.

That being said, we’re on here talking mostly about personal experiences. I have a bit of an issue with milk myself, I’ve had to cut way back on dairy products. I’m not really sure why. I’ve tried lactose free products but still there’s something about them that doesn’t settle well. (whey aside, I love it) This may be genetic, however. I do know someone developed serious illness and was diagnosed with ulcerative collitis. After removing dairy entirely from their diet (all aspects) they actually lost pretty much all of their symptoms and returned to normal.

I don’t think it’s as simple as lactose intolerance, or genetic predisposition, or hormonal treatment, or contamination, or allergies…I think it’s a combination of all those things, each interacting with every person in a different way. For some people they might be lactose intolerant but can use lactase and drink milk. For someone else they might have undiagnosed milk allergies and find, therefore, lactase to be ineffectual. Some people may have genetic and lifestyle factors that predispose them to being negatively influenced in the long term by the essential properties of milk- Ie. those who eat enormous ammounts of uncontrolled intake versus highly trained people who know their body’s needs like the back of their hand.

I know it’s a boring post, because I’m essentially saying “there’s no right answer” or “everyone is right”. However, with most of these issues it’s the case, if not all of them.

That being said, sometimes it’s more fun to argue. :wink:

So in that spirit…YOU’RE ALL WRONG! and um…Milk causes um, the africanization of honey bees! Run!

56

Leaving out the genetic predisposition is a damn big whoopsie. Ignoring pasturization as a solution is also a big one. Put the two together and what you have is a big fat nothing.
My point about the soy beans and products as a factor is this. If you already have some sort of bias toward something, and find more information that supports the bias, you must be carefull that the info you are gathering is valid and takes into consideration all of the evidence available. If not, you end up with faulty conclusions. There is also the phenomanon of groupthink. Thats what happens when a group of people with the same faulty conclusions get together and feed eachother more faulty conclusions.

So, when you take into consideration the genetic predisposition that must be present, and combine that with the pasturization process that milk must go through to be sold in the United States, do you still think that milk is hazardous to the general population?

And B.T.W. Did that site where you gleaned this information just so happen to be pushing some probiotics that are a miracle cure for the problem presented? Cause thats a realy popular tactic these days. It’s called create a problem then present a solution.

57

Conspiracy theorists and skeptics alike,

I was just wondering if anyone could point to any of Dr. M. Colgan’s peer-reviewed articles?

I just did a search on PubMed and was suprised to find not a single article by someone of that name.

Now, for someone who’s supposed to have been a senior professor at the University of Aukland in New Zeland for some 9 odd years, I would have expected the guy to have generated a significant amount of research that would allow him to be hailed as a top notch guy and reference.

Presently doing my stint in the research community, I find it interesting that this guy seems to be only referenced in ‘‘for the guillable’’ sites and his books seem to be in the same category and his analyses are taken at face value.

Anyway, I was just intrigued by this since the ‘‘Expert’’ argument for this person seems week at best to me.

If anyone can enlighten me…
AlexH

58

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Reef wrote:
I should have mentioned that the MAP is believed to be the trigger for the disease. The individuals who acquire the disease obviously have some type of genetic predisposition to it. They have found some genes responsible for the disease. This is why not everyone who is exposed to the bacteria develops Crohn’s.

So, explain to me why I should avoid milk when I have been drinking it for years and have no disease?

[/quote]

I’m not saying to avoid milk. I just wanted you guys to be aware that there can be potential problems. The problem is not with drinking milk in general but these farmers who know their cattle are sick are still selling the contaminated milk. If you want to drink, just make sure it’s ultra-pasteurized. That should take care of any MAP.

As for the earlier post about soy and breastmilk, I just wanted to add that I did not mean that babies should avoid breast milk. It’s essential for them to thrive. The benifits definitely outweigh the risks. And I’m not a fan of soy which I believe causes its own problems.

59

The site I linked to is a Canadian news site. There are articles about this stuff on all major news websites (Yahoo, Google News, MSNBC…list goes on and on).

60

The ‘cover up’ is often more simple than conspiracy. Example is dairy produce labelling. In many countries milk is may still be allowed to be advertised as a healthy product and also may have the ‘national heart healths’ (or similar) stamp of approval on it which in the general picture of things should not be allowed because the layperson then begins to think that it is a healthy product full stop.

Also the added friendly bacteria is another big con to make people believe yogurt is healthy. It isnt the yogurt atall its obviously only the bacteria, which the very next day is largely gone from the gut anyway and so another yogurt has to be consumed. This bacteria can be gained from supplements or even better by feeding the bacteria we already have. This is done by consuming fructo-oligosaccharides found in onions, artichoke etc This way the bacteria keep increasing and are not on a constant up and down in terms of number.

There will be many other examples to skew the publics mind and also ways in which the industry hides the bad news, whether direct or indirect.

So run for your lives before they get you! Btw, I had a pint of milk today, I dont cut out dairy, I just limit it.