When exactly was this? Back when we used to keep slaves? Or when segregation was the norm? No No, let me see, It was back when we used to burn women for practicing whitchcraft!Maybe we have never been very polite to each other. June Cleaver was realy nice, and the Beav was a swell kid, but gosh Zeb, that was in the golden age of television, not real life.
That is purely a mater of perception. A little humility would go a long way, in both directions.
Sure, I’ve seen my share of porn.
You just did it again!
and again…
The only thing that shocks me any more is electricity, and I do say that with a bit of remorse. The problem is that we aren’t going to move forward to a better social norm by looking back at a more brutal and less civilized time with a warped sense of the time in which it occured. We need to deal with the problems of the here and now with solutions of the here and now.
The only thing I feel forced to bring up, yet again, is that you can be a parent to a child without that child having been born of your DNA.
Being a parent is also a role, not just a genetic contribution.
Of course, it’s even easier to be a simple role model or a “parental figure” and not be as directly involved in their upbringing.
Try to focus on the quality of the comments and avoid the need to eliminate the validity of opinions because of the source.
If your only resort is to find an excuse to discredit the source, then they are probably saying something accurate that you don’t want to hear and are unable to argue against. If you could argue your point, you wouldn’t have to resort to such cheap discrediting tactics.
Anyway, on the topic, I do support the rights of parents to try to impose rules on what they believe is a proper upbringing… however, I’ll stick with the desire for “censorability” and avoid the scourge of “censorship” per se.
What I see here is opportunity. Millions of parents will pay big bucks for a safe Internet experience… and nobody is really providing that right now, are they?
That is a good perspective, Vroom. If you can provide a solution, you deserve to benefit.
You currently working on something we shouldn’t know about yet?
And simply being a parent doesn’t make anyone an expert in the field.
There are plenty of 15yr old parents who don’t know the first thing about being a good parent.
There are some parents who abandon their children and want nothing to do with them. Others who could care less about their kid’s safety and raise them terribly.
That doesn’t mean that those people have better ideas about parenting than someone who’s never been a parent.
I had the same ideas about raising a child before I was a parent as I do now. Those ideas seem to be working out quite well.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
ZEB wrote:
a_train wrote:
How do people feel about Censorship on the Internet? I don’t think that it is good for children to able to see things like porn etc, but for the most part I feel like the internet shouldn’t be censored. I mean, if you don’t want to look at something, then don’t go to the site. Also, you should be able to express your opinions on things like internet forums without being censored. Just my .02 cents.
Do you think you have a right to libel someone on the Internet?
No more or no less than anywhere else.[/quote]
Exactly right!
The Internet is simply one means of communications. Those who think that certain civil and criminal laws do not apply because it’s the Internet need a wake up call.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
ZEB wrote:
DPH wrote:
SWR-1222D wrote:
Yes, the internet should be censored.
BY THE PARENT OR ADULT WHO’S PAYING FOR IT.
Other than that, I don’t believe it should be censored.
The adult who has children who can access the internet should be responsible for learning how to block and limit the usage of it.
exactly…
parents need to monitor their childrens use of the internet, TV, liturature, etc…
Yes, it’s up to the parents to do the monitoring of all media. And this can be done 24/7 with no problem.
Tv, radio, Internet, billboards, magazines. You name it.
You guys without kids are sort of funny…
If you teach your kids proper values, they will know how to react and respond to the filth in the world. .[/quote]
This is the sort of naivete that I am talking about regarding those who don’t have children.
Do you think that most 7, 8 or 9 year olds can be taught enough regarding values to turn away from various things that look and sound cool, but are in reality wrong, potentially harmful and sometimes out right sick?
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
ZEB wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
Zeb, I’ve seen you do this every time this topic comes up. You try to hijack it to parenting under the premis that “if you don’t have children (and disagree with me) then yu don’t know what yu are talking about…” then take it directly to porn.
Lets look at the strategy that dictators and hostile governments use to dehumanize their target population. The first thing they do is eliminate all religious text. Next comes the cultural artwork and artisans. Then the scientists, engineers, teachers and other creators of data. This is how a government systematicaly erases a cultural identity.
This is the type of censorship that I’m talking about. You can try to hijack the topic to parenting and porn every time, but you end up looking like a myopic religious nut. Try thinking a little bigger next time.
The best way to keep censorship from happening is to not let it get started.
I’m surprised you never realized that it is your own sacred text that You are putting in the line of fire when you advocate censorship.
First of all I do not advocate censorhip!
What I advocate is decency.
What happened to decency? What happened to being polite? You can’t make being polite a law, but things were much better off when people treated each other with more respect.
I’m thinking there are far too many folks walking around currently who think that the sun shines out of their ass and that everyone else just seems to get in the way.
Do YOU know how we got here?
Finally, I am NOT taking this topic directly to porn. Porn (available for children) is only part of the problem. I was speaking of violence, lack of respect in conversation, profanity in the media.
No…this problem is much much bigger than just porn.
By the time that you have kids you might just end up agreeing with me as the behavior that they will most likely be exposed to will probably shock even you…
I agree that today’s world lacks decency. Case in point: comedians like George Carlin and Howard Stern used to be funny precisely because they were so outrageous. Now there really is no such thing as outrageous anymore. So, they just try to be as absolutely filthy as possible. George Carlin’s last comedy show was not funny at all. It was just horrendous. There is no sense of privacy or acceptability, so in order to push envelopes comedians of that vein just go way beyond anything that could be thought of as funny to what is simply nauseating. But how are you going to legislate decency? Beyond broad guidelines, you really can’t and shouldn’t. Try and take too much of an activist role, and you are coming dangerously close to infringing on freedom of expression.[/quote]
Very well said!
I think there needs to be some sort of a “roll back” to regain some of the decency that has been lost over a long period of time.
I’m not so sure any of this can be legislated.
What is really needed is for one or perhaps many who have media power to start leading the way.
By this I mean major motion picture studios, pro athletes, actors, and any and all who hold sway over pop culture.
We need to make being decent, polite and respectful cool again. Yea…more of that and less Paris Hiltons…
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Zeb,
Changed your tune a bit when confronted with the more far reaching aspects of censorship, huh?[/quote]
First of all where did I say that I was ever for censorship up to this point?
Show me.
Okay, with that said, I AM for censorship of certain things, just as you are if you have any decency, and I’m sure that you do.
I am actually for certain types of censorship when it comes to protecting our children. Censoring things has been going on for…I guess forever. That’s the reason you don’t see hard core porno during prime time.
They don’t allow it- It’s censored!
You’re not against that are you? Or, do you think they should show it and then blame the parents when a percentage of kids end up watching it?
Does that mean that censorship is bad? No, not in that case.
This is the type of game that is played out everyday. “It’s your kid control what he/she watches, reads and hears.”
That would be funny if it were not so sad.
We live in the media age. Information is flying fast and by the second. At what point do parents say that they have had enough?
[quote]Just so we’re clear on the issue though- I agree with you on the most recent post, but I’m prety sure that we disagree on the mode of action.
I have been a role model for all 11 of my neices and nephews their entire lives(big family-Irish birth control). The role that I have tried to model is of someone who thinks, values, and acts moraly and responsibly. In some cases, even telling them explicitly that what they are doing or wanting to do is wrong and will have consequences.
This is to teach them by example and to instill in them the values and morals that they will need to become well socalized and healthy adults.
When it comes down to it though, the ball is in their court. They will ultimately be faced with the decision of taking action in a given circumstance.[/quote]
Good for you for your example!
When you say when it comes down to it it’s their decsion, I agree. But…what concerns me is that they are being pulled in many different directions by society. Many of the positive institutions that use to hold sway over a childs thinking are no longer respected.
And what have they been replaced with? MTV? YIKES!
Yes, I agree. But as I already stated, parents are fighting a many front battle. Even good parents are slipping up because of all the peer pressure, pop culture, lack of good role modles in society and a number of other things.
Being a parent is an uphill battle. That sad part is that it doesn’t have to be this way and it did not use to be this way.
[quote]I say it’s and inside job. You seem to think that it’s society’s problem- Other kids, other kids parents, the internet, television, and all other forms of media are to blame. They are our own kids. Our own responsability.
Correct?
[/quote]
I have always thought this. But, it becomes increasingly difficult to fight off all of the trash that filters through.
I don’t want any help raising my kids. But, I don’t want anyone trying to undermine me either and that is exactly what parents are up against today!
What happened to decency? What happened to being polite? You can’t make being polite a law, but things were much better off when people treated each other with more respect.
When exactly was this? Back when we used to keep slaves? Or when segregation was the norm? No No, let me see, It was back when we used to burn women for practicing whitchcraft!Maybe we have never been very polite to each other. June Cleaver was realy nice, and the Beav was a swell kid, but gosh Zeb, that was in the golden age of television, not real life…[/quote]
I can highlite plenty of atrocities that have occured during the past say 1000 years of history. That means what?
[b]I am referring to a time in this country when people said “please” and “thankyou.” When a man would give up his seat on a train, or bus for a pregnant lady or senior citizen. A time when people spoke to each other and not at each other. A time when it was considered rude not to at least consider anothers feelings.
You never lived that…I did and it’s a real shame that it’s gone![/b]
[quote]I’m thinking there are far too many folks walking around currently who think that the sun shines out of their ass and that everyone else just seems to get in the way.
That is purely a mater of perception. .[/quote]
Yes, I agree. But if you have no other reference point then it will never dawn on you that things can and actually were BETTER when people were more civil.
Exactly my point!
There is nothing shocking anymore.
And that’s not good my friend, not at all.
As I stated it matters not if the discussion is on profanity, respect and decency, or porn.
There is a HUGE social problem in this country and it’s not going away. As I also stated, by the time you have kids you will really will be shocked at what they might be doing, seeing and hearing at a very young age.
The only thing I feel forced to bring up, yet again, is that you can be a parent to a child without that child having been born of your DNA.
Being a parent is also a role, not just a genetic contribution.
Of course, it’s even easier to be a simple role model or a “parental figure” and not be as directly involved in their upbringing.[/quote]
Well said!
There are many foster parents who parents in every sense of the word. And still others who have raised children with no legal authority who are also parents.
I have to disagree with you here vroom.
I will take the advice of Chad Waterbury relative to training, over some of the loud mouth wanna be teen posters on the Internet.
Why?
Because the source is better educated, has the experience and knows how to communicate reality based conclusions.
Again, if someone has never raised a child he is lacking in the experience department and while I listen…well…
I agree that is one reason to discredit the source.
Another reason is that they are talking out of their ass on a topic that they have NO experience with.
Someday we will sit down and I’ll tell you all about brain surgery. Now don’t get me wrong I have ZERO education or experience in that field. But, since you don’t care about the relative experience of the source I suppose you’ll listen
Then you would be FOR showing hard core porno on prime time…right? I mean you don’t want to censor the pornographers rights to show his product on prime time.
[quote]SWR-1222D wrote:
And simply being a parent doesn’t make anyone an expert in the field.
There are plenty of 15yr old parents who don’t know the first thing about being a good parent.
There are some parents who abandon their children and want nothing to do with them. Others who could care less about their kid’s safety and raise them terribly.
That doesn’t mean that those people have better ideas about parenting than someone who’s never been a parent.[/quote]
Um…yea I agree. Those who have good ideas who are non parents are sure better than those who currently have bad ideas and are in fact bad parents.
But that still does not negate the fact that being a parent gives you the experience and a deeper more meaningful outlook on…being a parent.
But Zeb, the whole point you are missing is that this fascade you reminesce so fondly of is what has gotten us to this point that you are so disgusted with.
Just a peek in to history for you Zeb- Look up the book “Junkie” by William S. Burrows. He wrote it in about 1937. You will realize that heroine and other forms of drugs were just as prolific then as now. Just as easily available, and even cheaper.
So folks tipped their hats back then, and held doors for ladies. They also had drug habits, pornography, racisism that makes what we see today pale by comparison, and a million other problems that were contemporary to the time like the takeoff of organized crime and the outright and blatant purchase of politicians.
This stuff isn’t new. You are just late in realizing it. My guess would be because they weren’t publicizing it at the time it occured. That is the type of information control and outright propaganda you want to harken back to?
No Thanks. When a cop gives a beatdown in Pittsburgh, I would prefer to know about it sooner rather than later. I like my reality live, in real time, not an afterthought that someone decided might be back page newsworthy.
I also hear you on the raising kids is a tough job. I never raised any kids in the 19th century, but I’m guessing it was tough then too.
[quote]Then you would be FOR showing hard core porno on prime time…right? I mean you don’t want to censor the pornographers rights to show his product on prime time.
DO YOU? [/quote]
Zeb, do you understand what I mean when I say censorable?
Anyway, hardcore porn is available 24x7. So, I’m guessing you must be talking about public broadcast television in this sense.
I think a public BROADCAST medium is somewhat different than a publicly AVAILABLE medium. I’ve also already said that I’m for public decency laws and so forth, so I don’t see why you are trying to grouse at me.
Any kid can go to the library, browse the books on anatomy or perhaps read some classic literature with some pretty explicit sex scenes, not to mention modern romance trash novels.
If you are going to push me into corners with silly questions, let me return the favor. Are you suggesting we should have book burnings to get rid of anything that might be a bit too hot for children to see, at least in the judgment of some?
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
This stuff isn’t new. You are just late in realizing it. My guess would be because they weren’t publicizing it at the time it occured. That is the type of information control and outright propaganda you want to harken back to?
[/quote]
Sky, I think Zeb is just bitching because he feels like he is unable to exert the type of control he’d like to be able to.
the problem isn’t censorship, guys. the problem is the way that our culture portrays everything as “taboo” or “immoral” and tries to shield us from it…
…this is me opening a serious can of whoop-ass on myself, but i feel like the people on this forum are mature enough to talk about extreme controversy without feeling the urge to start telling me, ‘you got PWNED, you team-killing fucktard!’ so, please, if you don’t like what i have to say, let’s DEBATE it, not flame each other…
…i feel that censorship encourages kids to seek out such things. kids want to watch porn because they don’t know what it is (via censorship and a general unwillingness to discuss it) and are curious. the thought of exploring a dangerous collection of information acts as the catalyst, and the ‘wrongness’ of the action makes it exciting…
…case in point: tits. men in america LOVE tits. but what about the cultures where women don’t wear shirts? you don’t see the people of that tiny topless village raping infants or praising satan. but their breasts are exposed! who cares? the kids know that women have breasts and that there’s nothing wrong with that, so the boobies are ignored and life goes on…
…the problem isn’t the information, it’s the ignorance. by understanding and accepting reality and our own impulses, we can curb a majority of the negative effects they may have on society…
…point two (crossing into another form of censorship): alcohol. alcoholism overall is lower in countries with no drinking age. my guess for the difference - understanding. european kids aren’t brought up thinking that alcohol is a ‘grown-up’ thing to do, it’s just another beverage to be enjoyed with dinner…
…i’m willing to bet we could make prune juice a scheduled substance and it would see a huge jump in teen ‘abuse.’ it’s not the result of the alcohol that makes kids do it; it’s the excitement of doing something ‘grown up’ and rebellious…
…i don’t mean to imply that all problems could be solved by lifting all censorship. the problem we’ve created for ourselves is this: we’ve given all these censored items an air of evil or secrecy or general bad behavior, so to lift all the censorship on tv or to pull the drinking age down to zero would likely result in a huge surge of alcoholism or a riot at Jack’s Whack Shack…
…the only way to combat this problem, i feel, is to educate our children about what all these things are. after we’ve eradicated the mystery or fear that’s surrounding a topic, it’s possible to examine it objectively…
…we’re such an advanced culture; isn’t our fear of nipples on tv a troubling parallel to hiding our heads under the covers to keep from acknowledging the monsters under our beds?
…censorship is a shortcut used in lieu of thinking for ourselves. if we’re not capable of exploring a topic, deciding if it’s one we do or do not agree with and/or wish to keep contact with, what the hell are we doing with these advanced minds?
[quote]vroom wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
This stuff isn’t new. You are just late in realizing it. My guess would be because they weren’t publicizing it at the time it occured. That is the type of information control and outright propaganda you want to harken back to?
Sky, I think Zeb is just bitching because he feels like he is unable to exert the type of control he’d like to be able to.
Welcome to the club Zeb! ;)[/quote]
Yea, I’ve had that thought on the back burner too. There are a couple of big red buttons that I’ve been having a hard time not pushing. Better sense keeps telling me NO.
[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
But Zeb, the whole point you are missing is that this fascade you reminesce so fondly of is what has gotten us to this point that you are so disgusted with.[/quote]
No, no, no you are mistaken!
Showing respect for others. Moral decency etc. that did not get us into a “mess.”
Abandoning these things is what got us in this mess.
Actually drugs of all kinds are more readily available (and more widely accepted) now!
It was actually rare compared to our current society.
There was no billion dollar porn industry in those days. Did they show a sexy flick on reels in the back garage on occasion? Sure, but
there was no billion dollar porn industry in those days.
Pornography is very close to being mainstream. I say close, it’s still taboo but that’s changing as more and more of it is thrust into our face: both soft and hard porn.
All things were not better then and I never said they were. We have made some great improvements regarding racism and that makes me very happy.
I agree, I think corruption was more prevelant then than now. But the common man was not a party to that anyway for the most part. Society as a whole that is.
I agree in that respect. But the debate is about protecting children porn etc.
[quote]I also hear you on the raising kids is a tough job. I never raised any kids in the 19th century, but I’m guessing it was tough then too.
[/quote]
I’m sure it was tough back then no doubt, but for other reasons.
However, I think during the 40’s 50’s 60’s and even into the 70’s it was a different world than it is today. You could actually send your young child down to the corner store with no fears. And they didn’t have a cell phone…
Actually vroom, I’m enjoying our little debate. We have managed to go back and forth a few times and there has been no name calling and no misreprentation of positions.
I’d call it civil.
Here’s my point:
I’m suggesting that we need to protect our children. And that parents have a very difficult time doing it as society seems to be out to corrupt our kids faster than we can prevent it.
Censorship is not bad…just like guns are not bad. It’s how you use them that counts.
I’ll assume that you are NOT for showing hard core porn on prime time broadcast TV.
The reason that you are NOT for this is because you understand quite well that little Sally, no matter how hard her parents try will eventually view at least some porn if it’s shown at 8pm. And that at the age of 9 Sally should not be watching such things.
That means that YOU believe in censorship of some kind.
Remember censorship is not bad. It’s only bad when it’s used in the wrong way, just like a gun, or a car, or a bottle of wine.
“Some” censorship represents rules and order. The total lack of censorship represents a society heading down the wrong path…and that’s what we currently have in many respects.
Would I burn a pornographic book knowing that if I didn’t it would fall into the hands of children?
[quote]vroom wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
This stuff isn’t new. You are just late in realizing it. My guess would be because they weren’t publicizing it at the time it occured. That is the type of information control and outright propaganda you want to harken back to?
Sky, I think Zeb is just bitching because he feels like he is unable to exert the type of control he’d like to be able to.
