Censorship on Internet

Off Topic
21

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
If it is that much of an issue, Get a product like Zone Alarm with a web filtering feature. That is what I did for the computers my niece uses.

If you can’t find one, you haven’t looked.

If you haven’t looked, you have no room to bitch.

It realy isn’t an issue of- “you don’t have kids”. Thats just a cheezy attempt to lend your opinion a grain of moral and/or emotional relevance.

[/quote]

Actually, that’s not the case at all. It’s just that those who don’t have kids don’t really understand that total picture. Um…let’s say you never lifted a weight a day in your life yet you are trying to tell someone who has lifted for 20 years all about weights.

It’s not exactly the same thing but you get the idea. If you never road a horse you just don’t know the subtleties of horseback riding.

Why is it that when someone has never done a particular thing they usually shut up and listen to those who have some experience with that thing…Except when it comes to parenting. With parenting every 20 something with a computer has all the answers.

I’m not trying to be insulting, but again I say, if you don’t have children you are not understanding the full picture. And that has nothing to do with your intelligence, or anything to do with moral superiority. It’s just that you have not done it and we have!

For example, you suggested using Zone Alarm with a web filtering feature. Now that seems like a pretty good idea to someone who doesn’t have kids. But those of us who have kids know that really won’t work.

When little Johnny is over to his friends house what sort of filter does his friend have on the computer?

Would you suggest questioning the parent as to what filters they use, and what computers are available for the kids to use?

Yea, I suppose that you could.

But, then again the parent (if there is one) might get a bit offended, and your child will give you all sorts of heat for saying such a thing to another kids parent.

It actually becomes quite messy. The parent could also lie to you not wanting to sound like he/she is not protecting their children.

Oh…and what about the magazine racks at the local bookstores. How do you censor them as a parent?

How do you get your 8 year old child to look the other way when you drive past a very “child unfriendly” billboard?

How do you take words out of your young childs head that they just heard when you flip the radio station past some loud mouth shock jock?

How fast can you switch the station when you are watching a child friendly show but the commerical is rated “R”?

How much should an 8 or 9 year old little girl be exposed to? And should the media be dictating when you should have that sex talk with your child?

No, somethings really wrong, and not with just Internet web sites…

No, it’s just not as easy as putting in a zone alarm (I wish it was). When you have kids you’ll get it!

22

[quote]SWR-1222D wrote:
ZEB wrote:
You guys without kids are sort of funny…

What guys without kids?

I have a 2 1/2 year old, very well diciplined, and very happy daughter.

We’ll have our second in about a year.

Thanks for the quick judgment.

I’m sure your kids are very well behaved and happy as well.

There are no bad kids, just bad parents.[/quote]

Yea, I agree there are lot’s of bad parents. BUT, with society (as it stands) it’s very very difficult to be a really good parent. The hurdles get higher and higher every year!

23

[quote]vroom wrote:
I’d like to draw a distinction between censoring the Internet and having it be censorable.

If there is no way to effectively control what children are able to find on the net, then as a parent you are not able to enforce your values – unless you are willing to forbid use of the Internet entirely, which will have it’s own problems since that is the way society is going.

I’d like the Internet to be censorable, such that adults could make choices about what they wish to allow into their homes, but I don’t think it should be censored, such that people can’t publish all types of material.

Zeb, you need to relax on whether or not people are able to have useful opinions based on whether or not they have walked in your shoes. Sometimes it happens…[/quote]

There are ways to make the internet censorable. As stated before, there are oodles of filtering softwares available. If your children happen to be old enough or savvy enough to circumvent those filters… there’s the old standby, put the computer in the family room. Can your kids look at porn, while you’re sitting in your lazy boy, eating your Doritos?

A guy I used to work with said to his 15 yr old step daughter, ‘trust, but verify.’ Meaning, he trusts her, but he WILL check on her. I plan to use that strategy with my son. He is just of an age where he can play up the street with his buds, unsupervised. But we do go poke our heads around the corner every 15 mins or so.

|/ 3Toes

24

[quote]vroom wrote:
Zeb, you need to relax on whether or not people are able to have useful opinions based on whether or not they have walked in your shoes. Sometimes it happens…[/quote]

Relax?

I’m cooooool. :slight_smile:

But, as we both know vroom the person who has experience in any particular activity is usually going to be better at it. And he will also have better judgement regarding the various intricacies of it.

This only makes sense.

That does not mean that I don’t value single guys opinions regarding raising a child. But, it does mean that the opinion that they are offering is untested.

We’ve been down this road before my friend…why go there again?

25

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Yea, I agree there are lot’s of bad parents. BUT, with society (as it stands) it’s very very difficult to be a really good parent. The hurdles get higher and higher every year!
[/quote]

I agree.
I’m not looking forward to the negative influence that my daughter is unavoidably going to get from going to school, be it public or private.

I can only hope that my influences are greater than the influences of children with behavioral issues.

I’m not saying there aren’t a lot of other good parents out there, I just think there are too many who don’t give their children enough attention and dicipline in this over-worked society.

26

[quote]ZEB wrote:
When little Johnny is over to his friends house what sort of filter does his friend have on the computer?
[/quote]

This logic also applies to the stacks of Hustler Johnny’s friend’s dad keeps in his “hidden” spot in the garage. Ultimately, there’s really no way to make sure your children don’t see those things, without severe, across the board censorship of all media. I respect your concerns, but I just don’t think that censorship is going to work the way people would like it to.

27

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Relax?

I’m cooooool. :slight_smile:

But, as we both know vroom the person who has experience in any particular activity is usually going to be better at it. And he will also have better judgement regarding the various intricacies of it.

This only makes sense.

That does not mean that I don’t value single guys opinions regarding raising a child. But, it does mean that the opinion that they are offering is untested.

We’ve been down this road before my friend…why go there again?
[/quote]

Zeb, your analogy earlier falls down. One, we have all been children and have a reasonable perspective on that end of things. Two, almost everyone has had responsible parental figures involved in their upbringing and we usually have a reasonable perspective on that too if we aren’t too young.

Third, and more importantly, it is very possible to be responsible for and care for children without having any of your own. You are assuming just a little too much.

In any case, I have to disagree with someone earlier suggesting that the nanny programs are effective. People send porn to your inbox as spam, or your friends that you IM with who aren’t as monitored will send you all types of material, graphic or not, that your parents won’t approve of. The net is only sort of censorable these days. Heck, I won’t even get into what the search engines will return if you stumble across phrases which don’t always mean what a naive person might think.

At the same time, there are plenty of things happening outside of your own home that you don’t control now, that I don’t think the Internet is particularly worse. For example, if your kid goes to a friends house, his older brother may have porn mags around the house, he may talk about the girls he’s banging, or he might just be smoking a joint and messing around with his chick while your child is over visiting when he should be babysitting.

None of those things have to do with the Internet, they have to do with who you trust to help enforce appropriate rules for your children when they aren’t with you. You don’t have to allow your children to go to a friends when their parents aren’t there. If you don’t trust the parents, then, you have a decision to make, and it really has absolutely nothing to do with the Internet per se.

All that being said, you can teach a child values without those values being in place at all times. Besides, nature will step in and show you dogs humping and cats in heat and two flies stuck together, cows shitting, animals giving birth or whatever else you might want to be sheltered from, no matter how much you may want to stop it from doing so.

28

[quote]vroom wrote:
For example, if your kid goes to a friends house, his older brother may have porn mags around the house
[/quote]

You stole my example, you bastard! Plagiarism, Plagiarism! :wink:

29

[quote]ZEB wrote:

No, it’s just not as easy as putting in a zone alarm (I wish it was). When you have kids you’ll get it![/quote]

I know this wasn’t directed at me, but I do have children and I DO agree w/ SkyzykS / vroom /et al.

Furthermore, the government should not need to dictate what is available for us to see / hear / etc. They have way more important things to do.

30

[quote]Blood is Metal wrote:
ZEB wrote:

No, it’s just not as easy as putting in a zone alarm (I wish it was). When you have kids you’ll get it!

I know this wasn’t directed at me, but I do have children and I DO agree w/ SkyzykS / vroom /et al.

Furthermore, the government should not need to dictate what is available for us to see / hear / etc. They have way more important things to do.[/quote]

Government. They sell freedom, we buy slavery.

31

Zeb, I’ve seen you do this every time this topic comes up. You try to hijack it to parenting under the premis that “if you don’t have children (and disagree with me) then yu don’t know what yu are talking about…” then take it directly to porn.

Lets look at the strategy that dictators and hostile governments use to dehumanize their target population. The first thing they do is eliminate all religious text. Next comes the cultural artwork and artisans. Then the scientists, engineers, teachers and other creators of data. This is how a government systematicaly erases a cultural identity.

This is the type of censorship that I’m talking about. You can try to hijack the topic to parenting and porn every time, but you end up looking like a myopic religious nut. Try thinking a little bigger next time.

The best way to keep censorship from happening is to not let it get started.
I’m surprised you never realized that it is your own sacred text that You are putting in the line of fire when you advocate censorship.

32

[quote]SWR-1222D wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Yea, I agree there are lot’s of bad parents. BUT, with society (as it stands) it’s very very difficult to be a really good parent. The hurdles get higher and higher every year!

I agree.
I’m not looking forward to the negative influence that my daughter is unavoidably going to get from going to school, be it public or private.

I can only hope that my influences are greater than the influences of children with behavioral issues.

I’m not saying there aren’t a lot of other good parents out there, I just think there are too many who don’t give their children enough attention and dicipline in this over-worked society.[/quote]

So true!

33

[quote]nephorm wrote:
ZEB wrote:
When little Johnny is over to his friends house what sort of filter does his friend have on the computer?

This logic also applies to the stacks of Hustler Johnny’s friend’s dad keeps in his “hidden” spot in the garage. Ultimately, there’s really no way to make sure your children don’t see those things, without severe, across the board censorship of all media. I respect your concerns, but I just don’t think that censorship is going to work the way people would like it to.[/quote]

I agree, it’s not even censorship that I want.

I think we need (as a society) to once again respect decency.

When I was a kid they had Playboy magazine. But if a friends father had them he sure as heck kept them out of my sight.

Why?

I think because there was more a respect of decency then. You can only tear down so many walls before there is nothing left.

I don’t think that we are there yet, but we are heading there at a rapid rate.

34

[quote]vroom wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Relax?

I’m cooooool. :slight_smile:

But, as we both know vroom the person who has experience in any particular activity is usually going to be better at it. And he will also have better judgement regarding the various intricacies of it.

This only makes sense.

That does not mean that I don’t value single guys opinions regarding raising a child. But, it does mean that the opinion that they are offering is untested.

We’ve been down this road before my friend…why go there again?

Zeb, your analogy earlier falls down. One, we have all been children and have a reasonable perspective on that end of things. Two, almost everyone has had responsible parental figures involved in their upbringing and we usually have a reasonable perspective on that too if we aren’t too young.[/quote]

Huh? You can attend a pro football game every Sunday too. Does that mean that you are now qualified to play or coach?

BIG DIFFERENCE!

You have told me before of your own experience helping with your nephews (I think). And that does give you more experience, and insight than someone who has not helped out with their young relatives.

But…that is still not raising your own children. Thus, you still fall short in the experience and insight department of someone who has raised their own children.

Don’t take offense to that-Your opinions are still valuable.

I agree and have addressed that. It’s a decency issue. There’s less of it today and it’s not a good thing. We’ve relaxed certain standards taht should have been left alone.

Good insight!

By the way there are less kids being raised by “parents” and that’s far more damaging than the Internet as a single issue.

[quote]All that being said, you can teach a child values without those values being in place at all times. Besides, nature will step in and show you dogs humping and cats in heat and two flies stuck together, cows shitting, animals giving birth or whatever else you might want to be sheltered from, no matter how much you may want to stop it from doing so.
[/quote]

I don’t think those are the problems which are in need of fixing.

35

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
Zeb, I’ve seen you do this every time this topic comes up. You try to hijack it to parenting under the premis that “if you don’t have children (and disagree with me) then yu don’t know what yu are talking about…” then take it directly to porn.

Lets look at the strategy that dictators and hostile governments use to dehumanize their target population. The first thing they do is eliminate all religious text. Next comes the cultural artwork and artisans. Then the scientists, engineers, teachers and other creators of data. This is how a government systematicaly erases a cultural identity.

This is the type of censorship that I’m talking about. You can try to hijack the topic to parenting and porn every time, but you end up looking like a myopic religious nut. Try thinking a little bigger next time.

The best way to keep censorship from happening is to not let it get started.
I’m surprised you never realized that it is your own sacred text that You are putting in the line of fire when you advocate censorship.

[/quote]

First of all I do not advocate censorhip!

What I advocate is decency.

What happened to decency? What happened to being polite? You can’t make being polite a law, but things were much better off when people treated each other with more respect.

I’m thinking there are far too many folks walking around currently who think that the sun shines out of their ass and that everyone else just seems to get in the way.

Do YOU know how we got here?

Finally, I am NOT taking this topic directly to porn. Porn (available for children) is only part of the problem. I was speaking of violence, lack of respect in conversation, profanity in the media.

No…this problem is much much bigger than just porn.

By the time that you have kids you might just end up agreeing with me as the behavior that they will most likely be exposed to will probably shock even you…

36

[quote]ZEB wrote:
a_train wrote:
How do people feel about Censorship on the Internet? I don’t think that it is good for children to able to see things like porn etc, but for the most part I feel like the internet shouldn’t be censored. I mean, if you don’t want to look at something, then don’t go to the site. Also, you should be able to express your opinions on things like internet forums without being censored. Just my .02 cents.

Do you think you have a right to libel someone on the Internet?
[/quote]

No more or no less than anywhere else.

37

[quote]ZEB wrote:
DPH wrote:
SWR-1222D wrote:
Yes, the internet should be censored.
BY THE PARENT OR ADULT WHO’S PAYING FOR IT.
Other than that, I don’t believe it should be censored.

The adult who has children who can access the internet should be responsible for learning how to block and limit the usage of it.

exactly…

parents need to monitor their childrens use of the internet, TV, liturature, etc…

Yes, it’s up to the parents to do the monitoring of all media. And this can be done 24/7 with no problem.

Tv, radio, Internet, billboards, magazines. You name it.

You guys without kids are sort of funny…[/quote]

If you teach your kids proper values, they will know how to react and respond to the filth in the world. Obviously, there must be limits on what is permissible. But we live in the real world, and you can’t keep your kids in a box. Better to be exposed within some broad limits and discussed than swept under the rug when they will encounter it on there own eventually anyhow.

38

[quote]ZEB wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
Zeb, I’ve seen you do this every time this topic comes up. You try to hijack it to parenting under the premis that “if you don’t have children (and disagree with me) then yu don’t know what yu are talking about…” then take it directly to porn.

Lets look at the strategy that dictators and hostile governments use to dehumanize their target population. The first thing they do is eliminate all religious text. Next comes the cultural artwork and artisans. Then the scientists, engineers, teachers and other creators of data. This is how a government systematicaly erases a cultural identity.

This is the type of censorship that I’m talking about. You can try to hijack the topic to parenting and porn every time, but you end up looking like a myopic religious nut. Try thinking a little bigger next time.

The best way to keep censorship from happening is to not let it get started.
I’m surprised you never realized that it is your own sacred text that You are putting in the line of fire when you advocate censorship.

First of all I do not advocate censorhip!

What I advocate is decency.

What happened to decency? What happened to being polite? You can’t make being polite a law, but things were much better off when people treated each other with more respect.

I’m thinking there are far too many folks walking around currently who think that the sun shines out of their ass and that everyone else just seems to get in the way.

Do YOU know how we got here?

Finally, I am NOT taking this topic directly to porn. Porn (available for children) is only part of the problem. I was speaking of violence, lack of respect in conversation, profanity in the media.

No…this problem is much much bigger than just porn.

By the time that you have kids you might just end up agreeing with me as the behavior that they will most likely be exposed to will probably shock even you…

[/quote]

I agree that today’s world lacks decency. Case in point: comedians like George Carlin and Howard Stern used to be funny precisely because they were so outrageous. Now there really is no such thing as outrageous anymore. So, they just try to be as absolutely filthy as possible. George Carlin’s last comedy show was not funny at all. It was just horrendous. There is no sense of privacy or acceptability, so in order to push envelopes comedians of that vein just go way beyond anything that could be thought of as funny to what is simply nauseating. But how are you going to legislate decency? Beyond broad guidelines, you really can’t and shouldn’t. Try and take too much of an activist role, and you are coming dangerously close to infringing on freedom of expression.

39

Zeb,
Changed your tune a bit when confronted with the more far reaching aspects of censorship, huh?

Just so we’re clear on the issue though- I agree with you on the most recent post, but I’m prety sure that we disagree on the mode of action.

I have been a role model for all 11 of my neices and nephews their entire lives(big family-Irish birth control). The role that I have tried to model is of someone who thinks, values, and acts moraly and responsibly. In some cases, even telling them explicitly that what they are doing or wanting to do is wrong and will have consequences.
This is to teach them by example and to instill in them the values and morals that they will need to become well socalized and healthy adults.
When it comes down to it though, the ball is in their court. They will ultimately be faced with the decision of taking action in a given circumstance.

It’s not up to us to decide what kids can see and read. Its up to us to teach them how to make good value based decisions, and act on them. Once they have been taught right and wrong, it’s up to them.

I say it’s and inside job. You seem to think that it’s society’s problem- Other kids, other kids parents, the internet, television, and all other forms of media are to blame. They are our own kids. Our own responsability.

Correct?

40

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
ZEB wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
Zeb, I’ve seen you do this every time this topic comes up. You try to hijack it to parenting under the premis that “if you don’t have children (and disagree with me) then yu don’t know what yu are talking about…” then take it directly to porn.

Lets look at the strategy that dictators and hostile governments use to dehumanize their target population. The first thing they do is eliminate all religious text. Next comes the cultural artwork and artisans. Then the scientists, engineers, teachers and other creators of data. This is how a government systematicaly erases a cultural identity.

This is the type of censorship that I’m talking about. You can try to hijack the topic to parenting and porn every time, but you end up looking like a myopic religious nut. Try thinking a little bigger next time.

The best way to keep censorship from happening is to not let it get started.
I’m surprised you never realized that it is your own sacred text that You are putting in the line of fire when you advocate censorship.

First of all I do not advocate censorhip!

What I advocate is decency.

What happened to decency? What happened to being polite? You can’t make being polite a law, but things were much better off when people treated each other with more respect.

I’m thinking there are far too many folks walking around currently who think that the sun shines out of their ass and that everyone else just seems to get in the way.

Do YOU know how we got here?

Finally, I am NOT taking this topic directly to porn. Porn (available for children) is only part of the problem. I was speaking of violence, lack of respect in conversation, profanity in the media.

No…this problem is much much bigger than just porn.

By the time that you have kids you might just end up agreeing with me as the behavior that they will most likely be exposed to will probably shock even you…

I agree that today’s world lacks decency. Case in point: comedians like George Carlin and Howard Stern used to be funny precisely because they were so outrageous. Now there really is no such thing as outrageous anymore. So, they just try to be as absolutely filthy as possible. George Carlin’s last comedy show was not funny at all. It was just horrendous. There is no sense of privacy or acceptability, so in order to push envelopes comedians of that vein just go way beyond anything that could be thought of as funny to what is simply nauseating. But how are you going to legislate decency? Beyond broad guidelines, you really can’t and shouldn’t. Try and take too much of an activist role, and you are coming dangerously close to infringing on freedom of expression.[/quote]

i live in the UK, am 21 years old and dont have any children so i dont really meet any of the criteria for contributing to this thread :wink:

a similar thing has happened in this country too (re: decency) and i cant see where exactly things went wrong.

break down of community, increasing influence of the government in everyday life, vilianisation of all forms of social stigma in order to fight old intolerances. i can see how all of these contributed, but surely there must be something more granite which prompted it?

in regards to censorship, here is an interesting argument that has developed on a UK blog site. 3 articles, none are long (but the links are- sorry!)