I am a 280 lb man who is capable of doing one wide grip pronated pullup.
I have been doing lat pull-downs up to this point. I have been working with 3 sets of 8 reps at 210 lbs for the last few weeks. I would like to ditch that machine for pullups, but I don’t know if I will be able to get enough meaningful work in at my stage. Given my current 1RM of a single pullup, I am unsure if I would be best served by attempting to do as many pullups as I could with the shortest possible rest intervals.
I have also considered trying to work a pullup in between my lat pull-down sessions until I achieve a better strength:weight ratio.
I could also stick with lat pull-downs as I slowly shed fat (0-2 lbs/wk). I could probably play the waiting game for a bit longer until I am strong and light enough to do sets of 3+ pullups.
I would be very interested to hear peoples’ thoughts on this dilemma. I would be especially interested to hear from someone who has been in a similar situation and progressed past it.
Thanks in advance.
Get a bench up under the pull up bar and work on assisting as needed with the legs. Fat loss simultaneously would certainly help.
Try rack chins. A quick google search for “rack chins” turns up a number of good videos showing how to do them.
Band-assisted chins. Get a band, loop it around the bar and stick your foot/knee in it. The band will stretch as you come down, giving you assistance as you pull yourself up.
I am a 240lb man who can do 12 supinated pull-ups on a good day. Not so long ago I was struggling to do 3.
Train pull-ups 2-3 times per week.
Use negatives with static holds every couple of inches.
Use different hand positions, some will let you get more reps.
Look for ways to increase the volume:
If you can do 1 supinated pull-up then I’m guessing that you can do 2-3 narrow-mid grip chins. If this is the case, I found pyramid sets to be really effective. Say you can do 2 consecutive reps: do a 1-2-1 pyramid, resting 10s for each rep. It would look like this: 1 rep - 10s rest - 2 reps - 20s rest - 1 rep, giving you 4 total reps. Rest a minute or two and then go again. When that gets easy, add another level: 1-2-3-2-1. I like to do a few sets, going from the most to least challenging grip.
Do one pull-up on the minute every minute for 10 mins. Add in negatives if you need to in order to get the 10 reps. Then try and beat your record.
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
I have been doing lat pull-downs up to this point. I have been working with 3 sets of 8 reps at 210 lbs for the last few weeks. I would like to ditch that machine for pullups, but I don’t know if I will be able to get enough meaningful work in at my stage.
[/quote]
Why do you feel the need to do pull-ups instead of sticking to the lat PD machine at this point (or ever)? Doesn’t make sense to me, except perhaps when your goal is to be good at doing pull-ups. Or is it some misplaced pseudo-hardcore attitude thing?
^Second pyramid work. It’s a great way to increase reps.
So am I correct in inferring that I should, in fact, ditch the lat pull-down machine and train pullups using the methods outlined here?
Am I at the point now where the lat pull-down offers no advantage other than familiarity?
I forgot to mention that my goal is to lose fat and retain my strength or, ideally, get stronger in the process. Overall health and well-being is my long-term goal.
Plus I just want to be able to do more pullups. The lat pull-down is the only machine I use as a core exercise. I don’t have any problem with machines as training tools, but the prospect of training my major movements with just a barbell and bodyweight has a certain purity that appeals to my current strength training ethos.
Thanks again.
I can’t do a lot of pull-ups, but I did go from doing 160 lb pulldowns at 245 to a couple pullups at 255. Here’s things that worked for me:
-gaining weight: not what one would expect and maybe not optimal, but it allowed me to build the muscle I need, I suppose. I’ve since gone for a different goal, cutting a significant amount of weight, and my pulls have only improved by maybe a rep.
-gloves: grip can be a big limiting factor and this helps eliminate that and focus on proper form. You could also do grip work.
-warm-up/activation: Getting the shoulders to go can be key. I would push my horizontal straight arms back and hold maybe 6s and repeat a little higher to get my shoulders going
-single arm pull-downs: This was probably the most effective. Doing arms on one of those pulldowns with the individual grips really allowed me to see/feel how weak my weak arm actually was and focus on it. I think, prior to this, I essentially pulled halfway down and then let my strong side do most of the work.
Like I said… I’m no expert, but somethings that worked for a tall fatty. I’ve also done static holds and I normally do my last negative as slow as I can, but the things mentioned above had the largest effect, I think. There’s a number of articles on here w/ pull-up programs for different levels.
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
So am I correct in inferring that I should, in fact, ditch the lat pull-down machine and train pullups using the methods outlined here?
Am I at the point now where the lat pull-down offers no advantage other than familiarity?
I forgot to mention that my goal is to lose fat and retain my strength or, ideally, get stronger in the process. Overall health and well-being is my long-term goal.
Plus I just want to be able to do more pullups. The lat pull-down is the only machine I use as a core exercise. I don’t have any problem with machines as training tools, but the prospect of training my major movements with just a barbell and bodyweight has a certain purity that appeals to my current strength training ethos.
Thanks again.[/quote]
Pull-ups are a skill, much like the squat or bench. Practice will increase your #'s. Less body weight will also increase your numbers. When I was “practicing” pull-ups 3+ times a week I could do around 30. Most of the time, at least now, I’m at 15 or so.
I’ve never had carry over from lat pull-downs to pull-ups, but I’m sure it’s individual (and based on a lot of factors).
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
So am I correct in inferring that I should, in fact, ditch the lat pull-down machine and train pullups using the methods outlined here?
[/quote]
Yeah, once you can do one you can work towards doing more. I personally only started using pull-downs recently for a bit extra volume.
As USMC said, it’s a skill that needs practised, so you could also look into “greasing the groove” if you have a pull-up bar/ledge handy throughout the day.
Chalk on your hands can also help if grip is a limiting factor. When I started using it, it translated into an immediate extra couple of reps.
If you have a few dollars spare, look up a guy called Ross Enamait. His books cover a full range of pull-up progressions from negatives to from a rope with a clap lol
And yes. Pull-ups are awesome.
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
So am I correct in inferring that I should, in fact, ditch the lat pull-down machine and train pullups using the methods outlined here?
Am I at the point now where the lat pull-down offers no advantage other than familiarity?
I forgot to mention that my goal is to lose fat and retain my strength or, ideally, get stronger in the process. Overall health and well-being is my long-term goal.
Plus I just want to be able to do more pullups. The lat pull-down is the only machine I use as a core exercise. I don’t have any problem with machines as training tools, but the prospect of training my major movements with just a barbell and bodyweight has a certain purity that appeals to my current strength training ethos.
Thanks again.[/quote]
I realize that I’m just another voice in the crowd, but I think there’s a way to utilize both. You can perform some of the low-volume methods that will help improve your pull-ups (think one pull-up every minute or so for 5 minutes) followed by 2-3 sets of higher-rep work on the lat pulldown if you feel the need for a little more volume.
The pull-up bar and lat pulldown machine both have their uses. I understand your desire to improve at pull-ups because I, too, prefer less dependence on machines - but I will concede that many great physiques have been built with machines as a major tool in their development.
Awesome. Thanks for all of the great advice.
My grip is pretty good and I don’t think that will be a limiting factor at all. It sounds like I just need to continue shedding fat and begin training the movement with some meaningful volume.
It is time for me to join the club of People Who Do Pullups, another small milestone on my long journey from 320 lb fat man to wherever it is I am going.
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
I have been doing lat pull-downs up to this point. I have been working with 3 sets of 8 reps at 210 lbs for the last few weeks. I would like to ditch that machine for pullups, but I don’t know if I will be able to get enough meaningful work in at my stage.
[/quote]
Why do you feel the need to do pull-ups instead of sticking to the lat PD machine at this point (or ever)? Doesn’t make sense to me, except perhaps when your goal is to be good at doing pull-ups. Or is it some misplaced pseudo-hardcore attitude thing?[/quote]
I suppose it is a little of both. Being able to do pullups, and lots of them, has a certain appeal to me since I have spent my adult life being unable to do even one. I also am under the impression that it is a superior movement in terms of the muscles recruited.
Do you think the lat PD machine offers a distinct advantage for me at this stage?
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
I have been doing lat pull-downs up to this point. I have been working with 3 sets of 8 reps at 210 lbs for the last few weeks. I would like to ditch that machine for pullups, but I don’t know if I will be able to get enough meaningful work in at my stage.
[/quote]
Why do you feel the need to do pull-ups instead of sticking to the lat PD machine at this point (or ever)? Doesn’t make sense to me, except perhaps when your goal is to be good at doing pull-ups. Or is it some misplaced pseudo-hardcore attitude thing?[/quote]
The voice of reason goes un-noticed…
[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
[quote]infinite_shore wrote:
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
I have been doing lat pull-downs up to this point. I have been working with 3 sets of 8 reps at 210 lbs for the last few weeks. I would like to ditch that machine for pullups, but I don’t know if I will be able to get enough meaningful work in at my stage.
[/quote]
Why do you feel the need to do pull-ups instead of sticking to the lat PD machine at this point (or ever)? Doesn’t make sense to me, except perhaps when your goal is to be good at doing pull-ups. Or is it some misplaced pseudo-hardcore attitude thing?[/quote]
The voice of reason goes un-noticed…[/quote]
I’ve always thought pull-ups are a superior movement for the majority of trainees. twojarslave isn’t a bodybuilder from what I remember. He’s a gym rat like the majority of us.
Plus, I just thought someone hacked infinite_shore’s account seeing as it was civil and all.
Just kidding infinite, we all love ya.
I think a few replies were overlooked. To be clear: I am not dead-set on abandoning the lat pulldown machine. I AM dead-set on getting better at pullups, with or without the lat PD machine.
The main reason I started this thread is to better understand if, at my stage of the game, a focus on one or the other has any distinct advantages, given my goal of becoming stronger and leaner.
I am under the impression that pullups are the superior movement. I’m all ears if someone believes I will be best served with putting most of my work in on the lat PD machine.
Edit: And yes, gym rat would be a good description of me. No specific hypertrophy goals at this stage. Just want to continue improving.
I thought your primary goal was weight loss, and secondary goal was getting better at the big 3?
Since you describe your current weight as 280, which was what it was a month ago, it appears you are not making progress on your primary goal. Have you considered how much easier pull-ups will be if you focus on your primary goal?
How are your big 3 coming? Not trying to bust your balls, but you may be suffering from the dreaded beginner’s boredom/fantasy disease, where once newbie gains slow down the trainee begins to seek out other arbitrary goals like getting good at pull ups for no particular reason at all.
If you are still committed to your goals, I can assure you there are many top tier powerlifters who never do pull-ups. There are no mandatory exercises. If you really want to get better at pull-ups, then go for it. There is nothing wrong with that. However, if you are doing it because you think you “have to” be good at pull-ups, then please reconsider.
[quote]Goldie4545 wrote:
I thought your primary goal was weight loss, and secondary goal was getting better at the big 3?
Since you describe your current weight as 280, which was what it was a month ago, it appears you are not making progress on your primary goal. Have you considered how much easier pull-ups will be if you focus on your primary goal?
How are your big 3 coming? Not trying to bust your balls, but you may be suffering from the dreaded beginner’s boredom/fantasy disease, where once newbie gains slow down the trainee begins to seek out other arbitrary goals like getting good at pull ups for no particular reason at all.
If you are still committed to your goals, I can assure you there are many top tier powerlifters who never do pull-ups. There are no mandatory exercises. If you really want to get better at pull-ups, then go for it. There is nothing wrong with that. However, if you are doing it because you think you “have to” be good at pull-ups, then please reconsider.[/quote]
My goals have not changed, so this particular dilemma is being confronted in that context. The pullup dillema is, all things considered, a minor crossroad for me since being able to actually do a pullup is a new development for me.
My weight has held steady the last five weeks or so, but I have been making gains on the big 3 as well as my front squat, so I consider that progress. I also need to get better at dieting. And better at not going to the bar to watch playoff hockey and having weeknight beers. And better at a lot of other stuff too, but that is a whole other thread.
Thanks for the insight!