Well.... When You Put It That Way...

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

There is no order and stability in an increasingly complex world that can be ordained from above.

The free market is an emergent order that is inherently chaotic and if you want it to be as stable as it can be you need to push power as much downward as possible, i.e. to the individual level so that those individuals have room to manouver. [/quote]

…all of which has made Mogadishu such a garden spot for years…[/quote]

I have to say that what struck me was that they do look healthier and happier than the fat people I see waddling out of the Walmart.

The pictures here are interesting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/04/africa_mogadishu_life/html/1.stm
[/quote]

…and since I haven’t been to a Walmart lately, can you tell me if the waddling customers there are packing heat like these happy free market-driven Somalis shopping for everyday low prices?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/04/africa_mogadishu_life/html/7.stm

Do you like spiders, Dr. Skeptix?

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Do you like spiders, Dr. Skeptix?[/quote]

Why, yes…I do not confuse arachnids with anarchids.

See, I have a friend who is unreasonably afraid of them. I asked him one day if he had any idea how many spiders he got within three feet of everyday. He told me unequivocally that he could spot a spider from a mile away and that there was no way he got that close to that many without knowing. So I shone my flashlight back across the yard he had just walked across to get to my door.

“See all those little sparkly things?”
“Yeah”
“know what those are”
“yeah”
“what are they?”
“dewdrops”
“really?”
“yeah”
“show me”

So he grabbed the light and walked over to where one of them was, you know, to show me the little dewdrop that was reflecting the light… and promptly FTFO when he realized that every one of those thousand little sparkles was a spider and he was standing in the middle of the yard.

Moral?

If you knew how many people around you were packing on a daily basis, LEGALLY OR NOT, you would FTFO if you were afraid of guns. Just because you can’t see them doesn’t mean they’re not there. They have been there all along, and have never hurt you.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
See, I have a friend who is unreasonably afraid of them. I asked him one day if he had any idea how many spiders he got within three feet of everyday. He told me unequivocally that he could spot a spider from a mile away and that there was no way he got that close to that many without knowing. So I shone my flashlight back across the yard he had just walked across to get to my door.

“See all those little sparkly things?”
“Yeah”
“know what those are”
“yeah”
“what are they?”
“dewdrops”
“really?”
“yeah”
“show me”

So he grabbed the light and walked over to where one of them was, you know, to show me the little dewdrop that was reflecting the light… and promptly FTFO when he realized that every one of those thousand little sparkles was a spider and he was standing in the middle of the yard.

Moral?

If you knew how many people around you were packing on a daily basis, LEGALLY OR NOT, you would FTFO if you were afraid of guns. Just because you can’t see them doesn’t mean they’re not there. They have been there all along, and have never hurt you.[/quote]

Nice story.

Especially because it has nothing to do with this thread. Must be an Alabama thing…

…anyway, I liked my answer better.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

Nice story.

Especially because it has nothing to do with this thread. Must be an Alabama thing…

…anyway, I liked my answer better.

[/quote]
Your post about the Somalis packing heat at the market reminded me of it. You make an issue of it because you can see the guns, while you pretend that Americans who shop at wal-mart don’t carry just because you can’t see them.

If you were to read the text that accompanies the picture you use to illustrate how Somalia is so horrible because of people carrying guns, it says that those are armed guards that people hire to go with them because it is dangerous.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

Nice story.

Especially because it has nothing to do with this thread. Must be an Alabama thing…

…anyway, I liked my answer better.

[/quote]
…Somalia is so horrible because of people carrying guns, it says that those are armed guards that people hire to go with them because it is dangerous.[/quote]

No argument, there.

And it is so dangerous because…it is anarchic?
When government ended there…by violence…the vacuum was filled by thuggery, butchery, and arms.
This was not a utopian state of freedom, you would have to agree. Armed by necessity is not the same as armed by choice, I suggest. Even Somalis might prefer to live under law rather than some Hobbesian nightmare. Law is a necessary choice, it just seems we can’t get too little of it.

Well, of course. But it is not an absolute that government is better than no government. I think that anarchy would be better than tyranny because at least you have a chance to defend yourself. Not only that, predators have to risk life and limb every day to survive. After a while, if you arm the sheep, there will be fewer wolves.

But of course a limited, conscientious government is better than anarchy anyday because of the peace and security it affords. Employing a shepherd and sheepdogs lets the sheep live better and rest easier.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

As I was saying…if you care to read the accompanying text…
“As Somalia awaits a new government which its people hope will restore stability after years of anarchy…”

These happy faces are captured after a government has been “cruelly imposed on them, as organized violence, or at the point of a gun” (the rot as orion would have it).
Nope, I agree with tb…government is a good thing–among other good things–especially when one has witnessed people suffering by its absence.[/quote]

Yes, I read all the text and looked at all the pictures.

Thank you for mentioning Mogadishu: it moved me to look for that link.

I am only now beginning to look into “Libertarianism”.

There was a test a few years ago here on Tnation where one would score where they fell in the political spectrum of conservative, liberal, libertarian, etc.

I took it for fun since I have no political identification.
I scored as libertarian. After a break from reading on Tnation ( I moved to the USA 2 1/2 years ago and I am getting to know my third culture before I feel I can open my mouth to comment on anything here ) I return and see a lot more about libertarians.

I am curious. I have no formed opinions since I do not have enough facts nor personal experience to do so.

My understanding is that there has never been a libertarian “government” or system in any nation in history, is that correct?

From your knowledge of politics, why do you equate libertarianism with anarchy? My understanding was that this so called “free market” would not necessarily mean a spider state ( your play on words “arachnids with anarchids” made me laugh, by the way, very clever! ).

As for the happy faces: I grew up in Brazil until I was 18. Those happy faces can be witnessed in spite of massive base suffering with no sign of relief from a “government”.
They did seem to retain a simple form of joy, because even though their common necessities had been taken away from them ( or just never there in the first place ) they still managed to pull a genuine smile at the site of another human face that showed an interest on them.

That taught me more about life than my government “protected” comfortable upbringing.

I witnessed that kind of suffering in the shanty towns of Brazilian society. It was like crossing into a parallel universe.

In spite of a lack of basic rights a simple and basic joy still remains.
By contrast, in spite of all the freedoms Americans enjoy, I have encountered a vacuum in people here that when it is not filled with bitterness and hostility ( mostly the women ), apathy ( mostly the men ) it has taken the lives of people from within.

I witness suffering daily in the presence of government, and this is my third culture.

There is a thread right now on GAL which is extremely sad for me to read: there is a young, beautiful, strong male that is asking for help because he doesn’t want to wake up anymore. There is another like him in the Army, in his avatar holding a riffle, with everything to live for and talking about feelings of suicide and being on medication to stabilize him. Sadly there are many others. One English one American.

And I have now lived in both countries long enough to have witnessed their pain.
It is real, and it does touch me.

That too, is suffering, in the presence of government.

So, I disagree with TB, government is not a good thing, and I have now repeated experienced in three different governments which became progressively bigger; and the bigger it has gotten, the worse and the uglier it gets albeit in an insidious way.

It may not be violence from anarchy but it is violation from bureaucracy.

There is no world without hierarchy. Predictably, Somalis fell into relationships of dominance and submission as soon as the government collapsed. The chief difference being that when power is conferred directly and indiscriminately by the gun and the machete, newsmen start having to come up with headlines like “Rape Victim, 13, Stoned to Death in Somalia” with more frequency.

But hey, at least they don’t have to endure the grotesque, mephistophelean soul-torture that is an income tax.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

…and since I haven’t been to a Walmart lately, can you tell me if the waddling customers there are packing heat like these happy free market-driven Somalis shopping for everyday low prices?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/picture_gallery/04/africa_mogadishu_life/html/7.stm[/quote]

When I saw that picture I thought about my analogy with Walmart shoppers also.

I have no problem with guns, even though I previously only lived in countries where they were banned and only 2 weeks ago touched one for the first time.

Personally, I would rather see the people that are packing the heat than the illusion of safety.

And I do think they would feel better about themselves if the Walmart shoppers were armed with guns rather than food stamps and walking due to flooded streets rather than relying on cars and motorized chairs to move their 300lbs of useless heat from indoor paved surface to outdoor paved surface.

What bothers me the most if that I have to pay for their bad choices in life forced by the “goodness” of the government.

[quote]smh23 wrote:
There is no world without hierarchy. Predictably, Somalis fell into relationships of dominance and submission as soon as the government collapsed. The chief difference being that when power is conferred directly and indiscriminately by the gun and the machete, newsmen start having to come up with headlines like “Rape Victim, 13, Stoned to Death in Somalia” with more frequency.

But hey, at least they don’t have to endure the grotesque, mephistophelean soul-torture that is an income tax.[/quote]

Pure conjecture, think of all the violence and anal rapes they do not have, simply because they have no war on drugs.

There would be a hell of a lot going on, just to make up for that.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
TB, is you’d have been more along the lines of “government is a necessary evil” rather than Yea, yea, yea, government rocks, I could’ve hung in there with ya, man. because much of what you wrote was reasonable.

You just don’t seem to fear the encroachment on liberty the way I, and the preponderance of the signers of the D of I and Constitution, do.

Inn other words your expounding on the necessity of good government does not come with enough caveats.[/quote]

Push:

I must have read/misinterpreted what TB wrote.

I thought he was stating that Government was a “neccesity”…BUT…

Bad (“evil”) in some respects…better in others…and that Anarchy (or even VERY “limited” Governmnent) was wrought with a LOT of problems. (History has, and still does, prove that).

So a “neccessary Evil” is the conclusion I drew from the post. (TB can certainly speak for himself in order to clarify!)…

Mufasa[/quote]

Like I said, much of what he said was reasonable. But it was short what I deem to be the requisite caveats.

He also expresses the idea that government is there to bring “order and stability” to an ever increasingly complex society and that is Oh So True BUT…many of the “repair projects” that government is engaged in is the very result of past government meddling.
[/quote]

There is no order and stability in an increasingly complex world that can be ordained from above.

The free market is an emergent order that is inherently chaotic and if you want it to be as stable as it can be you need to push power as much downward as possible, i.e. to the individual level so that those individuals have room to manouver. [/quote]

…all of which has made Mogadishu such a garden spot for years…[/quote]

Yeah, sure, because that is a fari comparison.

Compare them to the rest of Black Africa and tell me how bad they really have it.

This is also entirely irrelevant, because it changes zilch, nada, niente that you simply cannot do any meaningful planning in an ever more complex world.

You cant go faster than light speed?

Mogadishu!

WTF?[/quote]

Then you will be moving there shortly, since it offers incrementally more freedoms than does lower Austria? Good…I will pack your picnic basket.[/quote]

So, more bullshit.

Ignoring you again, you have nothing to contribute.

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

My understanding is that there has never been a libertarian “government” or system in any nation in history, is that correct?

From your knowledge of politics, why do you equate libertarianism with anarchy? My understanding was that this so called “free market” would not necessarily mean a spider state ( your play on words “arachnids with anarchids” made me laugh, by the way, very clever! ).

[/quote]

The US in the beginning, England around the same time and a lot of the Greek polis came pretty close, barring the institution of slavery.

Their uniting vision was that free men do not pay direct taxes and they were willing to take arms against anyone who would try to enforce those.

Incidentally, those were the golden ages of our civilization.

Mebbe the Italian and German city states too, there is not a lot of bullshit you can get away with as a ruler if you just have to fall over to be in the next principality where the same language is spoken.

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
Well, of course. But it is not an absolute that government is better than no government. I think that anarchy would be better than tyranny because at least you have a chance to defend yourself. Not only that, predators have to risk life and limb every day to survive. After a while, if you arm the sheep, there will be fewer wolves.

But of course a limited, conscientious government is better than anarchy anyday because of the peace and security it affords. Employing a shepherd and sheepdogs lets the sheep live better and rest easier.[/quote]

I agree with with this completely.
Empowering the sheep instead of enabling.

But that requires accepting personal responsibility.
There is still a pay off to rest in victimization for the owners of the sheep mentality.

Can anyone dictate people to grow up?

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Alpha F wrote:

My understanding is that there has never been a libertarian “government” or system in any nation in history, is that correct?

From your knowledge of politics, why do you equate libertarianism with anarchy? My understanding was that this so called “free market” would not necessarily mean a spider state ( your play on words “arachnids with anarchids” made me laugh, by the way, very clever! ).

[/quote]

The US in the beginning, England around the same time and a lot of the Greek polis came pretty close, barring the institution of slavery.

Their uniting vision was that free men do not pay direct taxes and they were willing to take arms against anyone who would try to enforce those.

Incidentally, those were the golden ages of our civilization.

Mebbe the Italian and German city states too, there is not a lot of bullshit you can get away with as a ruler if you just have to fall over to be in the next principality where the same language is spoken.
[/quote]

This does sound interesting. I will investigate more.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
There is no world without hierarchy. Predictably, Somalis fell into relationships of dominance and submission as soon as the government collapsed. The chief difference being that when power is conferred directly and indiscriminately by the gun and the machete, newsmen start having to come up with headlines like “Rape Victim, 13, Stoned to Death in Somalia” with more frequency.

But hey, at least they don’t have to endure the grotesque, mephistophelean soul-torture that is an income tax.[/quote]

Pure conjecture, think of all the violence and anal rapes they do not have, simply because they have no war on drugs.

There would be a hell of a lot going on, just to make up for that.

[/quote]

My opinion of the war on drugs is similar to yours.

But what I wrote wasn’t conjecture. As I suspect you know, that was a real headline I quoted. There are many like it. And, as I said, government fell and was replaced by a collection of warlords, jihadists, pirates, and highwaymen–as inconsiderate of your wants and needs as the tax collector, but their weapons of choice are larger, sharper, and significantly more capable of killing children than the IRS agent’s pen and paper. And they prefer summary execution to trial and incarceration.

I would rather surrender some of my money to pay for police and bridges and, yes, drone warfare than all of my money and possibly my life so that the kid with the Kalashnikov in my face–who, by the way, has little to lose given that he suspects he’s dying of AIDS–can get some heroin before sundown.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
There is no world without hierarchy. Predictably, Somalis fell into relationships of dominance and submission as soon as the government collapsed. The chief difference being that when power is conferred directly and indiscriminately by the gun and the machete, newsmen start having to come up with headlines like “Rape Victim, 13, Stoned to Death in Somalia” with more frequency.

But hey, at least they don’t have to endure the grotesque, mephistophelean soul-torture that is an income tax.[/quote]

Pure conjecture, think of all the violence and anal rapes they do not have, simply because they have no war on drugs.

There would be a hell of a lot going on, just to make up for that.

[/quote]

My opinion of the war on drugs is similar to yours.

But what I wrote wasn’t conjecture. As I suspect you know, that was a real headline I quoted. There are many like it. And, as I said, government fell and was replaced by a collection of warlords, jihadists, pirates, and highwaymen–as inconsiderate of your wants and needs as the tax collector, but their weapons of choice are larger, sharper, and significantly more capable of killing children than the IRS agent’s pen and paper. And they prefer summary execution to trial and incarceration.

I would rather surrender some of my money to pay for police and bridges and, yes, drone warfare than all of my money and possibly my life so that the kid with the Kalashnikov in my face–who, by the way, has little to lose given that he suspects he’s dying of AIDS–can get some heroin before sundown.[/quote]

That however is a matter of preference, not one of magnitude of violence.

Then, ultimately the IRS use the very same means, because ultimately they will kill you if you do not pay up.

Finally, you compare Somalia to one of the richest nations on this planet, compare it to the surrounding countries.

[quote]orion wrote:

That however is a matter of preference, not one of magnitude of violence.

Then, ultimately the IRS use the very same means, because ultimately they will kill you if you do not pay up.

[/quote]

No, they won’t kill you.

[quote]StevenF wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

I can think of exactly 0 ways that the government has made my life better. I can think of many ways it has made it worse. [/quote]

BINGO!