T Nation

Well.... When You Put It That Way...

…it does sound pretty stupid.

But how else would you explain it?

The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

Exactly. It is either full on State-ism or Nihilism. There really is no other choice.

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

I can think of exactly 0 ways that the government has made my life better. I can think of many ways it has made it worse.

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

Not if he has an assault rifle.

[quote]StevenF wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

I can think of exactly 0 ways that the government has made my life better. I can think of many ways it has made it worse. [/quote]
I disagree. We have a lot of things that make life good because of government.

The problem is that they’ve grown too powerful, and have adopted the mindset of rulers as opposed to public servants

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

Exactly. It is either full on State-ism or Nihilism. There really is no other choice. [/quote]
No kidding. There couldn’t possibly be any other system! Anarchy or servitude, you decide!

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

Exactly. It is either full on State-ism or Nihilism. There really is no other choice. [/quote]
No kidding. There couldn’t possibly be any other system! Anarchy or servitude, you decide![/quote]

Out of curiosity-what system would you propose as an improvement to the current one? Would it be a simple reining in of current government powers? Optional taxes/you only pay taxes relating to programs you support?

[quote]CornSprint wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

Exactly. It is either full on State-ism or Nihilism. There really is no other choice. [/quote]
No kidding. There couldn’t possibly be any other system! Anarchy or servitude, you decide![/quote]

Out of curiosity-what system would you propose as an improvement to the current one? Would it be a simple reining in of current government powers? Optional taxes/you only pay taxes relating to programs you support?[/quote]

We HAD a great system. And we still could have one, but people aren’t going to vote for personal responsibilty at this point. The horror of collectivism has faded from world view, and the virtue of a “utopia” that can never happen is being taught in schools.

While reining in isn’t simple, but it is a good start.

[quote]StevenF wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

I can think of exactly 0 ways that the government has made my life better. I can think of many ways it has made it worse. [/quote]

Are you suggesting that you’d prefer true anarchism to our current political arrangement?

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]CornSprint wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

Exactly. It is either full on State-ism or Nihilism. There really is no other choice. [/quote]
No kidding. There couldn’t possibly be any other system! Anarchy or servitude, you decide![/quote]

Out of curiosity-what system would you propose as an improvement to the current one? Would it be a simple reining in of current government powers? Optional taxes/you only pay taxes relating to programs you support?[/quote]

We HAD a great system. And we still could have one, but people aren’t going to vote for personal responsibilty at this point. The horror of collectivism has faded from world view, and the virtue of a “utopia” that can never happen is being taught in schools.

While reining in isn’t simple, but it is a good start.[/quote]

When in your opinion did this great system end?

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]CornSprint wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

Exactly. It is either full on State-ism or Nihilism. There really is no other choice. [/quote]
No kidding. There couldn’t possibly be any other system! Anarchy or servitude, you decide![/quote]

Out of curiosity-what system would you propose as an improvement to the current one? Would it be a simple reining in of current government powers? Optional taxes/you only pay taxes relating to programs you support?[/quote]

We HAD a great system. And we still could have one, but people aren’t going to vote for personal responsibilty at this point. The horror of collectivism has faded from world view, and the virtue of a “utopia” that can never happen is being taught in schools.

While reining in isn’t simple, but it is a good start.[/quote]

Agreed, but the video seemed to have in its sights the very concept of government. Though I admit I only watched about half of it.

I put together a trampoline for my girls this Christmas. I got the frame built, the mat laid out, the springs put on, the spring pad tied on, and the net supports put together…

And then I realized that the instructions said to line up the net opening with one of the T-posts, not the socket!

Hurrrrrrrrr…

Long story short, I had to strip it back down to the framework and start over or it just wouldn’t work.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]CornSprint wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

Exactly. It is either full on State-ism or Nihilism. There really is no other choice. [/quote]
No kidding. There couldn’t possibly be any other system! Anarchy or servitude, you decide![/quote]

Out of curiosity-what system would you propose as an improvement to the current one? Would it be a simple reining in of current government powers? Optional taxes/you only pay taxes relating to programs you support?[/quote]

We HAD a great system. And we still could have one, but people aren’t going to vote for personal responsibilty at this point. The horror of collectivism has faded from world view, and the virtue of a “utopia” that can never happen is being taught in schools.

While reining in isn’t simple, but it is a good start.[/quote]

Agreed, but the video seemed to have in its sights the very concept of government. Though I admit I only watched about half of it.[/quote]
Did you get to the part about the character of our leadership?

If we could get that part right, we would be set. The original idea behind the electoral college was for the office to seek the man, not for the man to seek the office. If we could somehow get back to that mindset, I think that would be a great start.

Patrick Henry said “I know of no way of judging the future but by the past.” I think this is especially true of men, so why do we buy in to campaign promises that contradict their past decisions? And if we don’t buy into the promises, what is the use of campaigning? If we would all judge candidates by looking at their past, and the compare decisions they have made with our beliefs, we would be much better off.

[quote]StevenF wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

I can think of exactly 0 ways that the government has made my life better. I can think of many ways it has made it worse. [/quote]

You might be happier in a country like Somalia then, or maybe Liberia, or some other location with a level of government non-involvement more to your liking.

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]CornSprint wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

Exactly. It is either full on State-ism or Nihilism. There really is no other choice. [/quote]
No kidding. There couldn’t possibly be any other system! Anarchy or servitude, you decide![/quote]

Out of curiosity-what system would you propose as an improvement to the current one? Would it be a simple reining in of current government powers? Optional taxes/you only pay taxes relating to programs you support?[/quote]

We HAD a great system. And we still could have one, but people aren’t going to vote for personal responsibilty at this point. The horror of collectivism has faded from world view, and the virtue of a “utopia” that can never happen is being taught in schools.

While reining in isn’t simple, but it is a good start.[/quote]

When in your opinion did this great system end?
[/quote]

In some ways, when it started, lol. (Depending on your point of view)

But, I’ll give you a short answer because a “good” answer would take much more reading and thought:

I would say the Civil War pretty much destroyed any hope of vertical checks and balances being viable. Woody Wilson and the Federal Reserve act comes to mind, but I’m not 100% Jefferson-esk on that topic to be honest. While I’m sure you can find executive power grabs in ever administration the 20th century into the 21st saw congress become an after thought to the President. WWII saw us (forced us?) becoming Rome II…

Look, my main point being the founders were born of the enlightenment, they understood man has always and will always seek out more power, economicly, politically, spirtually, emotionally, philosophicly, intellectually, whatever. They looked to create a government that kept that will to power in check, and it was set up to do it fairly well. We’ve just slowly given up skeptic views of man and come to trust government way too much, and given them (allowed them) to become more powerful than they were intended to be.

I’m pro-government in the sense that we need it. Dreams of anarchy are for children and fools, because that will errode into ruin faster than democracy. I’m am not, however, pro the type of government who allows a president to have the power our’s does. We are more an Executive Bureaucratic Monarchy than Consitutional Republic at this point, at least IMO.

Sorry for spelling like a child.

So in short 1898-2013…

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Testy1 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]CornSprint wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]JEATON wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The alternative is: the alien lands, exits his aircraft, stumbles upon a drug-fueled gang-rape, and is stabbed and sodomized.[/quote]

Exactly. It is either full on State-ism or Nihilism. There really is no other choice. [/quote]
No kidding. There couldn’t possibly be any other system! Anarchy or servitude, you decide![/quote]

Out of curiosity-what system would you propose as an improvement to the current one? Would it be a simple reining in of current government powers? Optional taxes/you only pay taxes relating to programs you support?[/quote]

We HAD a great system. And we still could have one, but people aren’t going to vote for personal responsibilty at this point. The horror of collectivism has faded from world view, and the virtue of a “utopia” that can never happen is being taught in schools.

While reining in isn’t simple, but it is a good start.[/quote]

When in your opinion did this great system end?
[/quote]

In some ways, when it started, lol. (Depending on your point of view)

But, I’ll give you a short answer because a “good” answer would take much more reading and thought:

I would say the Civil War pretty much destroyed any hope of vertical checks and balances being viable. Woody Wilson and the Federal Reserve act comes to mind, but I’m not 100% Jefferson-esk on that topic to be honest. While I’m sure you can find executive power grabs in ever administration the 20th century into the 21st saw congress become an after thought to the President. WWII saw us (forced us?) becoming Rome II…

Look, my main point being the founders were born of the enlightenment, they understood man has always and will always seek out more power, economicly, politically, spirtually, emotionally, philosophicly, intellectually, whatever. They looked to create a government that kept that will to power in check, and it was set up to do it fairly well. We’ve just slowly given up skeptic views of man and come to trust government way too much, and given them (allowed them) to become more powerful than they were intended to be.

I’m pro-government in the sense that we need it. Dreams of anarchy are for children and fools, because that will errode into ruin faster than democracy. I’m am not, however, pro the type of government who allows a president to have the power our’s does. We are more an Executive Bureaucratic Monarchy than Consitutional Republic at this point, at least IMO.

Sorry for spelling like a child.[/quote]

Thank you, well said.

JayPierce: I have to say, I agree with the general sentiment that the best hope for fixing our system is fixing who we put into it. By that I mean revamping our election procedures (and personal voting practices) to bring more honesty to the process. The biggest problem I see these days is the money that goes into politics-those who are willing to sell out are more likely to get funding and thereby more likely to reach the large audience needed for election. Without reform in this area, I’m not confident we will see a change in the general nature of politicians, sad as that is…

Beans: Fantastic post. What would you propose as the path forward to “fix” the current system? Do you think it is possible? Personally, I do not see the government (executive branch in particular) willingly giving up the powers that it has been given (regardless of who is in office) barring some sort of seismic shift in public opinion/apathy.

This was perhaps the dumbest “dialogue” I’ve ever heard, and I want my nine minutes and twenty eight seconds back.