USSC, Partial Birth Abortion

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
61

[quote]Sloth wrote:

Huh? Is the embryo an organism Orion? Not your opinion please, but what science actually tells us? Is it? Simply google “Embryo is an organism.” Let me know, and I’ll get back to you with the next question.

[/quote]

Sure in the broadest sense.

So is a snail or a bacterium.

We do not give these organism rights though.

I think we both know both sides of this debate well enough to know that you cannot draw a line where a lump of cells becomes a human being.

So, since we cannot, get off of other peoples backs.

Nobody has abortions for fun.

62

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
No, he is asking you to lay your cards on the table.

You don`t want to do that because they do not look to good in bright sunlight and deep down inside you know that.

It is so much easier to “feel” what is right and have the government dealing with everyone that disagrees.

What cards? Killing a baby 2 weeks before its due date is murder. This has nothing to do wit a petri dish full of embryos.

[/quote]

In that special case I agree with you.

This equals bringing this child to life and smash its brains in.

People calling it “abortion” to feel better is BS.

63

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
No, he is asking you to lay your cards on the table.

You don`t want to do that because they do not look to good in bright sunlight and deep down inside you know that.

It is so much easier to “feel” what is right and have the government dealing with everyone that disagrees.

What cards? Killing a baby 2 weeks before its due date is murder. This has nothing to do wit a petri dish full of embryos.

In that special case I agree with you.

This equals bringing this child to life and smash its brains in.

People calling it “abortion” to feel better is BS.[/quote]

Thank you. Fortunately we are minimizing it in this country. Unfortunately this procedure is all too common in China and other countries.

64

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Malevolence wrote:
But here’s the catch. In a free society, you are free to choose whatever you want, but that does not excuse you from the consequences of your choices.

You are free to choose not to have sex. You are free to use contraception. You are free to use the morning-after pill. You are free to get a vasectomy, tubal ligation, castration, hysterectomy, whatever else. No one is telling you that you cannot have sex, that you cannot choose not to have a child, that you cannot be as promiscuous or as chaste as you want to be.

Once you create a child, you have introduced another interested party.

Trying to reduce the situation to “free choice” is just silly and intellectually dishonest.[/quote]

Great post.

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I’m by no means an expert on this stuff, but based on what little I know, and the opinions of a buddy at Yale Law School, it seems like nothing is abused as much as the Commerce Clause to give the federal government power it is not supposed to have. Some of the things that fall under the heading of “commerce,” in the Court’s view, are ridiculous.

And good to see Thomas noting that Roe is bad law period, though Kennedy invoked Roe in justifying the partial-birth ban.

66

[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:

Huh? Is the embryo an organism Orion? Not your opinion please, but what science actually tells us? Is it? Simply google “Embryo is an organism.” Let me know, and I’ll get back to you with the next question.

Sure in the broadest sense.

So is a snail or a bacterium.

We do not give these organism rights though.
[/quote]

Ok, so you do admit that the embryo is an organism, a living thing. Good. However, we both know that the species isn’t a snail or bacterium. At least I hope your realize what species the HUMAN embryo is? Is it a snail? Some bacterium? A canine? Do we really need to refer to a Dna test? Or do you, in the end, know it is in fact human?

So, we’ve established it’s a living thing, an organism. Waiting on you to share what species this living thing is.

67

[quote]orion wrote:

Nobody has abortions for fun.

[/quote]

Actually, most do have abortions for fun. The idea behind getting the abortion is to have the fun (sex) while forgoing the consequence. Yes, it’s a cold thing to say, but in the end it’s true.

68

[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:

Huh? Is the embryo an organism Orion? Not your opinion please, but what science actually tells us? Is it? Simply google “Embryo is an organism.” Let me know, and I’ll get back to you with the next question.

Sure in the broadest sense.

So is a snail or a bacterium.

We do not give these organism rights though.

Ok, so you do admit that the embryo is an organism, a living thing. Good. However, we both know that the species isn’t a snail or bacterium. At least I hope your realize what species the HUMAN embryo is? Is it a snail? Some bacterium? A canine? Do we really need to refer to a Dna test? Or do you, in the end, know it is in fact human?

So, we’ve established it’s a living thing, an organism. Waiting on you to share what species this living thing is. [/quote]

So it is a human organism.

As long as it is not even close to a human being I have no problems with abortions though, meaning around 12 weeks , longer if really necessary.

You can even call it human life, if you want to, you won`t get an argument there from me either.

That does not change the fact that I do not want the government to force people to live by other peoples moral decisions, not to mention the can of worms this open on the practical side of this issue.

69

[quote]pookie wrote:

If you believe embryos are persons, then you should save 12 embryos and not the live baby. To do the right thing (ie, save the actual person and note the clumps of cells) requires mental gymnastics (“I chose based on survivability potential…”).
[/quote]

You call it gymnastics, I call it fact. You what-ifs were stupid. All you were trying to do is corner me. A better question is “Who do you consider more valuable?”

Let’s play what-if’s for a second. What if you have 2 of your own children stuck in a fire. One is older and one is younger. You can only save one and the other will surely die, who do you save?

So what? Are you changing the definition of what an ‘answer’ is based on whether or not you like the answer?

So what? Mother nature took over 120,000 lives in the Asian Tsunami. That doesn’t mean I can pop a cap in someones ass, because nature did it. Because nature can do something doesn’t justify other people doing it to each other.

70

[quote]lixy wrote:

The way I understand it, the case is contreversial mainly because it doesn’t take into account the mother’s health.

[/quote]
That’s because there has never been a documented case where killing a baby that’s hanging half way out of a mother’s pussy anyway is going to preserve her life in any way, shape, or form. That’s why the argument didn’t wash in the Supreme Court.

71

[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:

Huh? Is the embryo an organism Orion? Not your opinion please, but what science actually tells us? Is it? Simply google “Embryo is an organism.” Let me know, and I’ll get back to you with the next question.

Sure in the broadest sense.

So is a snail or a bacterium.

We do not give these organism rights though.

Ok, so you do admit that the embryo is an organism, a living thing. Good. However, we both know that the species isn’t a snail or bacterium. At least I hope your realize what species the HUMAN embryo is? Is it a snail? Some bacterium? A canine? Do we really need to refer to a Dna test? Or do you, in the end, know it is in fact human?

So, we’ve established it’s a living thing, an organism. Waiting on you to share what species this living thing is.

So it is a human organism.

As long as it is not even close to a human being I have no problems with abortions though, meaning around 12 weeks , longer if really necessary.

You can even call it human life, if you want to, you won`t get an argument there from me either.

That does not change the fact that I do not want the government to force people to live by other peoples moral decisions, not to mention the can of worms this open on the practical side of this issue.[/quote]

So a 12 week old fetus is a human? A fetus that is 11 weeks and 2 days is what?

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[quote]orion wrote:

You can even call it human life, if you want to, you won`t get an argument there from me either.

[/quote]

So, we’ve established that it’s a human LIFE. Therefore, it must follow that an innocent human life is being murdered, no?

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[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:

You can even call it human life, if you want to, you won`t get an argument there from me either.

So, we’ve established that it’s a human LIFE. Therefore, it must follow that an innocent human life is being murdered, no?

[/quote]

We can play semantics all day.

You can murder a person. You cannot murder a lump of cells that might become a person.

Since murder is more or less a legal definiton you could of course include those lump of cells and thereby forcing everyone else to follow your assumption that:

“lump of cells”=full grown human being.

That would not change the fact that what you see as an unborn baby is merely organic matter to others.

Um, “human” organic matter.

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[quote]Sloth wrote:
So, we’ve established that it’s a human LIFE. Therefore, it must follow that an innocent human life is being murdered, no?[/quote]

Depends on your definition of “life”. How alive are you if you can’t survive without a host that does your breathing, eating, excreting, etc. for you?

Do you consider your liver to be a human life?

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[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:

So, we’ve established that it’s a human LIFE. Therefore, it must follow that an innocent human life is being murdered, no?

Orion:
We can play semantics all day.

[/quote]

What semantics? You admitted that a human embryo is an organism (life), and that the species is human. You even said you wouldn’t argue the point that it is indeed human life. You’re backtracking now.

76

[quote]pookie wrote:

Depends on your definition of “life”. How alive are you if you can’t survive without a host that does your breathing, eating, excreting, etc. for you?
[/quote]

There’s is no debate on this. The human embryo is an organism (life). Are you challenging this?

Next, we ask what species this life is. That should be common sense, but feel free to look up what species the HUMAN (hint)embryo is, if you must.

Ah pookie, that’s just bad. You probably rushed this reply and didn’t put much thought into your question. I’m not being sarcastic. I honestly don’t think you would’ve asked this had you the chance to think it through a bit.

Pookie, my liver is obviously not carrying it’s own full and unique set of DNA. Further, science does not define my liver as a unique and individual organism. And, my liver will never be part of the established chain of human development. Again, you probably do realize the immense gulf between a human embryo and my liver, but you were probably rushed. Giving you the benefit of doubt on this one.

There is an established chain of development throughout an individual human’s development. Being a liver is not one of those phases. However, an embryo is. An embryo through infancy, preteen, adolescence, adult, and geriatric. It is a linked chain. You break one of those links, you’ve taken a human life. It’s not something that can be argued around.

77

[quote]orion wrote:

That would not change the fact that what you see as an unborn baby is merely organic matter to others.

Um, “human” organic matter.[/quote]

No sir, you’re confused now. I specifically pointed out the human embryo is defined as an organism. You admitted this. It is not just human organic matter, such as a drop of your own blood. Indeed, as you’ve admitted, it’s an individual organism (life). Oh, which you also admitted was human. Again, you’re backtracking badly.

78

Reading this discussion reminded me of fetus in fetus cases, parasitic twins. Reality seldom aligns itself nicely with our conceptual thinking.
A human embryo is able to move spontaneously when it is 7-8 weeks old. The movements lessen when the control of movement transfers from the early developed part of the nervous system to the brain.

While the discussion of human development and its abnormalities is interesting, I think the question of abortion is a moral dilemma. I’m a pragmatist. Abortion can’t be recommended, it is traumatizing for the woman, but I wouldn’t forbid it. It should be done well before 12 weeks have passed. Teenagers must be educated about sex and contraception. And condoms for free.

“A little learning is a dangerous thing but a lot of ignorance is just as bad.”

79

[quote]Sloth wrote:
orion wrote:

That would not change the fact that what you see as an unborn baby is merely organic matter to others.

Um, “human” organic matter.

No sir, you’re confused now. I specifically pointed out the human embryo is defined as an organism. You admitted this. It is not just human organic matter, such as a drop of your own blood. Indeed, as you’ve admitted, it’s an individual organism (life). Oh, which you also admitted was human. Again, you’re backtracking badly.
[/quote]

I am not backtracking.

As I said , you can`t win this on semantics.

Whatever you call an embryo, whatever quality you think an embryo possesses that makes it worthy of the full protection of the law, I do not see it.

I am not pro-choice because noone has given me a good enough definition yet, that would magically change things.

That however, was not my main point.

Even if I was pro life, I would not want the government to force everyone else to be, because that might seriously backfire at the next issue and create a society not worth living in.

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By the way, in reading through the various arguments here, this thread is a perfect demonstration why the issue of abortion should be a political question left to the back-and-forth of state legislatures, and not the province of nine lawyers on a bench in Washington D.C.