USSC, Partial Birth Abortion

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
41

[quote]pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:

I believe in different things, and I believe for equally valid reasons.

I do not want you to be jailed for living your opinions yet you want people like me to be jailed for mine.

You think that this is going to fly?

Dream on.

I am not the thought police. You can have what evr opinion you want. It’s actions I am concerned with. Why do you care anyway. You live in Austria, you can have all the abortions you want despite our laws.[/quote]

True, I could have an abortion fest of an unheard magnitude.

I do care because there are way to many people out there who seriously believe that their live would be perfect if everyone who has a different opinion disappeared behind bars or just plain disappeared.

42

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
The topic is partial birth abortion. That the murder of third trimester fully formed human beings.[/quote]

Notice the grey text I quote before my response? There’s a reason for it. I was addressing the point someone made that a fertilized ovum is a person, a human being, no different than any other one.

Until they’re stuck in a fire… then there’s not quite so human anymore. Not as equal anyway.

I also learned that:

1 baby > 12 old people.

With a bit more info, we can build a “what’s your life worth in babies” scale. At 90, you’re worth less than 1/12 of a baby.

It also appears that the baby, and especially the unborn one, is the most precious life there is. The further away from birth it gets, the more it devalues. Adults are of little value compared to babies. It seems experience doesn’t count in this area.

I haven’t checked, but I’m pretty sure that the value of life also devalues rapidly as you move away from America. I need more info for this, so, another “what-if” scenario for you: (pat36 can play too)

You can save either:

A) 12 elderly Americans. All honest taxpayers, with more than half of them decorated war veterans. The youngest is 80.

B) A newborn Arab baby. Parents are devoted muslims and will raise the baby normally if you save him.

Who do you pick?

Other fun facts from this thread: Since “ensoulment” apparently occurs at fertilization and 60% of embryos never make it (thanks to God’s perfect design), we can then deduce that Heaven, assuming there is such a place, is populated by a majority of dead embryos’ soul.

43

[quote]pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The topic is partial birth abortion. That the murder of third trimester fully formed human beings.

Notice the grey text I quote before my response? There’s a reason for it. I was addressing the point someone made that a fertilized ovum is a person, a human being, no different than any other one.

Until they’re stuck in a fire… then there’s not quite so human anymore. Not as equal anyway.

I also learned that:

1 baby > 12 old people.

With a bit more info, we can build a “what’s your life worth in babies” scale. At 90, you’re worth less than 1/12 of a baby.

It also appears that the baby, and especially the unborn one, is the most precious life there is. The further away from birth it gets, the more it devalues. Adults are of little value compared to babies. It seems experience doesn’t count in this area.

I haven’t checked, but I’m pretty sure that the value of life also devalues rapidly as you move away from America. I need more info for this, so, another “what-if” scenario for you: (pat36 can play too)

You can save either:

A) 12 elderly Americans. All honest taxpayers, with more than half of them decorated war veterans. The youngest is 80.

B) A newborn Arab baby. Parents are devoted muslims and will raise the baby normally if you save him.

Who do you pick?

Other fun facts from this thread: Since “ensoulment” apparently occurs at fertilization and 60% of embryos never make it (thanks to God’s perfect design), we can then deduce that Heaven, assuming there is such a place, is populated by a majority of dead embryos’ soul.
[/quote]

Who’s talking about worth? You asked me who I’d save in an emergency situation. I based my judgement on abilty to survive, not their worth. It would still be tragic to lose 12 people. If you ask me who is worth more 12 people is 12 people.

According to my definition they are all people and all are equal. I decided to make my decision based on survival ability. I could be making the wrong choice, but that is the choice I’d make.

44

The problem here isn’t the abortion or not, but the partisan politics behind the verdict. The way the US Supreme Court has turned into an arena for partisan politics, personal agendas is just plain wrong in the eyes of an outsider.

The democratic division between the different powers is an important part of the mechanics that make a civilized society, making the not elected judges all the more powerfull is not the solution.

45

[quote]pat36 wrote:
I decided to make my decision based on survival ability. I could be making the wrong choice, but that is the choice I’d make.[/quote]

What about the 2nd what-if scenario?

46

[quote]pookie wrote:
pat36 wrote:
I decided to make my decision based on survival ability. I could be making the wrong choice, but that is the choice I’d make.

What about the 2nd what-if scenario?
[/quote]

I think you left out the whole question of handling.

If I have a box I can easily transport 6-7 babies but hardly the same number of war veterans.

Maybe babies profit from low shipment costs?

47

[quote]pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The topic is partial birth abortion. That the murder of third trimester fully formed human beings.

Notice the grey text I quote before my response? There’s a reason for it. I was addressing the point someone made that a fertilized ovum is a person, a human being, no different than any other one.

Until they’re stuck in a fire… then there’s not quite so human anymore. Not as equal anyway.

I also learned that:

1 baby > 12 old people.

With a bit more info, we can build a “what’s your life worth in babies” scale. At 90, you’re worth less than 1/12 of a baby.

It also appears that the baby, and especially the unborn one, is the most precious life there is. The further away from birth it gets, the more it devalues. Adults are of little value compared to babies. It seems experience doesn’t count in this area.

I haven’t checked, but I’m pretty sure that the value of life also devalues rapidly as you move away from America. I need more info for this, so, another “what-if” scenario for you: (pat36 can play too)

You can save either:

A) 12 elderly Americans. All honest taxpayers, with more than half of them decorated war veterans. The youngest is 80.

B) A newborn Arab baby. Parents are devoted muslims and will raise the baby normally if you save him.

Who do you pick?

Other fun facts from this thread: Since “ensoulment” apparently occurs at fertilization and 60% of embryos never make it (thanks to God’s perfect design), we can then deduce that Heaven, assuming there is such a place, is populated by a majority of dead embryos’ soul.
[/quote]

Yes. I know what you are doing. You are trying to change the topic by making some ridiculous comparisons.

You usually have something intelligent to add. This is not one of those times.

48

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
The topic is partial birth abortion. That the murder of third trimester fully formed human beings.

Notice the grey text I quote before my response? There’s a reason for it. I was addressing the point someone made that a fertilized ovum is a person, a human being, no different than any other one.

Until they’re stuck in a fire… then there’s not quite so human anymore. Not as equal anyway.

I also learned that:

1 baby > 12 old people.

With a bit more info, we can build a “what’s your life worth in babies” scale. At 90, you’re worth less than 1/12 of a baby.

It also appears that the baby, and especially the unborn one, is the most precious life there is. The further away from birth it gets, the more it devalues. Adults are of little value compared to babies. It seems experience doesn’t count in this area.

I haven’t checked, but I’m pretty sure that the value of life also devalues rapidly as you move away from America. I need more info for this, so, another “what-if” scenario for you: (pat36 can play too)

You can save either:

A) 12 elderly Americans. All honest taxpayers, with more than half of them decorated war veterans. The youngest is 80.

B) A newborn Arab baby. Parents are devoted muslims and will raise the baby normally if you save him.

Who do you pick?

Other fun facts from this thread: Since “ensoulment” apparently occurs at fertilization and 60% of embryos never make it (thanks to God’s perfect design), we can then deduce that Heaven, assuming there is such a place, is populated by a majority of dead embryos’ soul.

Yes. I know what you are doing. You are trying to change the topic by making some ridiculous comparisons.

You usually have something intelligent to add. This is not one of those times.[/quote]

No, he is asking you to lay your cards on the table.

You don`t want to do that because they do not look to good in bright sunlight and deep down inside you know that.

It is so much easier to “feel” what is right and have the government dealing with everyone that disagrees.

49

Good, glad to see this legal form of murder stay in the past. Now, if only abortion was made illegal in it’s entirety.

50

Wait, why is there a debate on when “ensoulment” occurs? When did science show that adults even have souls? Why is it even part of the abortion debate?

A pro-life position can be argued without religion if both sides understand that innocent humans have a right to life. Libertarians are supposedly believers of the right to life.

51

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Wait, why is there a debate on when “ensoulment” occurs? When did science show that adults even have souls? Why is it even part of the abortion debate?

A pro-life position can be argued without religion if both sides understand that innocent humans have a right to life. Libertarians are supposedly believers of the right to life.[/quote]

Of human people, yes.

The questions is, when does being a person start.

There is no real scientific answer to that, so how could a libertarian force a solution on all other people?

It is not governments role to make moral decisions for me.

These special forms of abortions are forbidden in most European countries though, unless there are very special circumstances.

52

[quote]orion wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Wait, why is there a debate on when “ensoulment” occurs? When did science show that adults even have souls? Why is it even part of the abortion debate?

A pro-life position can be argued without religion if both sides understand that innocent humans have a right to life. Libertarians are supposedly believers of the right to life.
[/quote]

What about human people? It’s all we’ve been discussing.

Huh? Is the embryo an organism Orion? Not your opinion please, but what science actually tells us? Is it? Simply google “Embryo is an organism.” Let me know, and I’ll get back to you with the next question.

[quote]
It is not governments role to make moral decisions for me.

These special forms of abortions are forbidden in most European countries though, unless there are very special circumstances.[/quote]

53

[quote]orion wrote:
No, he is asking you to lay your cards on the table.

You don`t want to do that because they do not look to good in bright sunlight and deep down inside you know that.

It is so much easier to “feel” what is right and have the government dealing with everyone that disagrees.[/quote]

What cards? Killing a baby 2 weeks before its due date is murder. This has nothing to do wit a petri dish full of embryos.

54

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
What cards? Killing a baby 2 weeks before its due date is murder. This has nothing to do wit a petri dish full of embryos. [/quote]

The way I understand it, the case is contreversial mainly because it doesn’t take into account the mother’s health.

55

[quote]pookie wrote:
pat36 wrote:
I decided to make my decision based on survival ability. I could be making the wrong choice, but that is the choice I’d make.

What about the 2nd what-if scenario?
[/quote]

It doesn’t matter. I wouldn’t save based on worth, value, or contribution. It’s who I can get to first. If I could get to them equally I’d start with the baby and move on from there. That is what I’d pick. That has absolutely nothing to do with the intrinsic value of each life involved. A life is a life and I don’t take the taking or loss of any life lightly.

56

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Yes. I know what you are doing. You are trying to change the topic by making some ridiculous comparisons.[/quote]

It’s related to the topic at hand. If you read the whole thread, there are many points made that are about abortion in general and not only about PBA.

You pick on mine because you don’t like having to justify the answers you’d give to my “what-ifs”.

And whatever you find ridiculous is up to you, but everything I state in my previous post follows logically from statements people have made.

If you believe embryos are persons, then you should save 12 embryos and not the live baby. To do the right thing (ie, save the actual person and note the clumps of cells) requires mental gymnastics (“I chose based on survivability potential…”).

No one has yet saved the Arab baby in my 2nd scenario… even though some said previously that they’d pick a baby over 12 old people anytime.

Pro-lifers who also believe that the soul is given at conception have to recognize the scientific fact that over 60% of all embryos never make it even without any human intervention to terminate… It follows that over 60% of souls never get to experience “living” and, from the numbers alone, would comprise nearly two-thirds of the inhabitants of Heaven. Or Hell… the embryos weren’t baptized, they haven’t accepted Jesus as their savior, etc.

We could have even more fun with souls by asking the question: Do identical twins share 1 soul? Or is a second one provided once the twinning occurs?

You can call all that ridiculous, but if what a lot of people believe is true, then those situations are real and asking questions about them is entirely normal.

Maybe I have nothing intelligent to contribute… but you seem unusually upset about that “nothing.”

57

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Killing a baby 2 weeks before its due date is murder.[/quote]

How many weeks back must we go for it not to be murder?

58

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
What cards? Killing a baby 2 weeks before its due date is murder. This has nothing to do wit a petri dish full of embryos.

The way I understand it, the case is contreversial mainly because it doesn’t take into account the mother’s health.

[/quote]

It takes the life of the mother into account. It does not leave a loophole open by saying the “health” of the mother because that is too generic.

59

[quote]pookie wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Killing a baby 2 weeks before its due date is murder.

How many weeks back must we go for it not to be murder?
[/quote]

40

60

[quote]pookie wrote:
…Pro-lifers who also believe that the soul is given at conception have to recognize the scientific fact that over 60% of all embryos never make it even without any human intervention to terminate… It follows that over 60% of souls never get to experience “living” and, from the numbers alone, would comprise nearly two-thirds of the inhabitants of Heaven. Or Hell… the embryos weren’t baptized, they haven’t accepted Jesus as their savior, etc.

…
[/quote]

Who the hell cares? That has nothing to do with the fact killing an unborn child is wrong.

You can pick on silly religious beliefs all day. It does not have anything to do with reality.