Transwoman Takes First Place

[Alrightmiami19c]

Trans woman wins female lifting competition by 20kg!!

[Jewbacca]

@twojarslave

@Jewbacca

On the bright side, maybe this will catch on and the WNBA can finally get some decent players.

Rodman’s probably ready to lace 'em up and dominate women’s pro basketball in his 50’s.

Not a bad idea. A whole host of retired guys could put on wigs and join up.

I’d love to see Larrieta Byrd play.

[Jewbacca]

@pfury

@anon71262119

I would agree, but just so you know, this puts you at odds with progressive thinking on this issue.

I’m 100% alright with that. I very very rarely align with anything in its entirety. I think it’s almost always shortsighted.

@anon71262119

In CA, high school students can participate in athletics based on their gender identity.

Personally I can accept that at the HS level, as statistically so few of those people will go pro that it rounds down to 0. That being said, when it comes to matters of strength, I would say to exclude any trans that underwent male puberty before the MTF switch.

It matters a lot for college scholarships. Due to Title IX, it’s pretty easy for any decent female athlete to get a scholarship to one college or the other.

I’d probably cross-dress to get a free ride to Harvard. It was fricking expensive, even way back when.

[Aragorn]

@Silyak

In order for an empirical determination to be made, you would need an empirical definition of biological sex. That is, I need to be able to run a series of tests and be able to determine based on the results of those tests the sex of the person being tested. Many would argue that we have such tests today, but the entire concept of transgenderism is built on the premise that these tests are, at least in some cases, flawed.

I believe we have empirical definitions of biological sex, and we have tests for them. Gender and sex are not the same thing when speaking in this realm. Sex is biological, genetic, you’re stuck with it period. Gender depending on who you are talking with or whose definition you accept can be a psychological thing, or a hormonal thing, or whatever.

We have tests for sex. You’re speaking of gender I believe.

In any case this question would not matter for determining advantage in sport–you would need to determine advantage of years spent as X gender before reassignment therapy. You would need to determine advantage of having the hormonal milieu of a male for years prior to transition and what if any effect it had. These are tough questions but may possibly be answered.

Then again, if one believes that tests for sex (not gender) are flawed they are unlikely to accept any studies showing an advantage for a transgender because the studies in question would be much more difficult than the current tests we have.

[Aragorn]

@EyeDentist

What I don’t know, what you don’t know, is whether certain aspects of his phenotype that are impervious to alterations in hormonal milieu would continue to give him a competitive advantage that would cause him to fall outside the normal distribution of athletic-performance indices for women who have endogenous female hormonal profiles. (Damn, that was a long sentence.) Whether that is in fact the case is (IMO) the only relevant issue regarding who should compete against whom.

I agree that this is the only empirical issue. I do believe that spending a long time as a male prior to transition probably engenders (hah!) a competitive advantage in certain ways. As you say, this is speculation since no validated and appropriately powered results are available but it is also a rational position.

[Aragorn]

@Jewbacca

On the bright side, maybe this will catch on and the WNBA can finally get some decent players.

Brutal! Lol.

[Silyak]

Gender and sex. You keep pretending that these are different.

[EyeDentist]

@anon71262119

I recall you put up a study in the Kroc thread, and we discussed it a bit. Most of the physiological changes happened after one year of hormone therapy. The authors were unable to say definitively that the TG MTF athlete would not maintain some competitive advantage. Is that what you remember?

What I remember is that the NCAA has signed off on allowing MTF TGs to compete as female after one year of appropriate hormone therapy. In my book, that’s a pretty good endorsement of the claim that the playing field is level–or at least level enough–after that. But if anyone has data to the contrary, I’d be interested in seeing it.

@twojarslave

It seems as though answering the question that neither of us know would be very resource intensive. It also seems like measuring individual athletes would also be very resource-intensive. I agree it would be good to know the answer to these questions, but how many new hoops do we need to introduce for the girls to get together and play some organized sports?

I agree, answering these questions in a dispositive way would be expensive and time-consuming. But as I mentioned above, the NCAA has studied it, and has come up with what they consider fair and appropriate guidelines. Why not simply adopt those for now?

@twojarslave

I’ve deadlifted more than any woman in the history of powerlifting. Short of actual mutilation, do treatments exist that could ever negate that advantage if I woke up tomorrow and realized I’m actually a woman?

Forgive me for the following, but: If you were castrated (chemically, so no mutilation) today and started on an estrogen regimen, I guarantee you would not be pulling anywhere near the same weight a year from now.

@anon71262119

How will we empirically study this?

There are scientists who have expertise in this area. I am not one of them.

@anon71262119

The numbers are incredibly small.

I’m not sure if that’s the case. It may be that studies concerning anthropometric changes post-transition need not be confined to highly-trained athletes.

@anon71262119

What if a TG athlete like Hubbard sets every female world record?

If a pattern emerges where TG athletes consistently dominate/set records, that would suggest the playing field is not level, and that changes are warranted.

[twojarslave]

@EyeDentist

Why not simply adopt those for now?

Simply stated, they seem pretty politically-motivated to me. I don’t know them in-and-out, but I’m fairly sure we will see more outcomes like Hubbard. All the long-winded scientastic reasoning in the world backed by heavy-handed rhetoric isn’t going to make people stomach that any better. Not today, not ever.

@EyeDentist

Forgive me for the following, but: If you were castrated (chemically, so no mutilation) today and started on an estrogen regimen, I guarantee you would not be pulling anywhere near the same weight a year from now.

I’m not disputing this. Are you suggesting that the same sex-based advantages that have allowed me, a guy who does not train anywhere near as well as world-class female lifters do, to pull more than any of them ever have will be washed away after a year of hormone therapy? No freaking way.

[Silyak]

@EyeDentist

I agree, answering these questions in a dispositive way would be expensive and time-consuming. But as I mentioned above, the NCAA has studied it, and has come up with what they consider fair and appropriate guidelines. Why not simply adopt those for now?.

They studied it? Or they had some lawyers study the politics of it and come up with a policy that was most likely to be most profitable and politically correct?

Because I looked at it and found no scientific studies cited by the NCAA. As far as I can tell the policy is pulled out from where the sun doesn’t shine based on what sounded good to some “experts.”

[debraD]

@EyeDentist

What I remember is that the NCAA has signed off on allowing MTF TGs to compete as female after one year of appropriate hormone therapy. In my book, that’s a pretty good endorsement of the claim that the playing field is level–or at least level enough–after that. But if anyone has data to the contrary, I’d be interested in seeing it.

Look no further than this specific case: you have an athlete who trained seriously for years and was mediocre as a male weightlifter but in one competition blows away her competitors and puts up lifts that would have put her in the top 4 snatch and top ten total the last Olympics. AT 39 years old, which is GERIATRIC in weightlifting. Are you seriously going to argue there is not enough information there to make a judgement?

Are you suggesting it’s possible she is just that naturally talented as a woman, even though she was mediocre as a man because maybe somehow in transition she found the magic right stuff to make her an amazing athlete?

The IOC and NCAA may have come up with guidelines but by no means that that it is based on reality in terms of the transitioning of trained athletes especially in strength sports. They measure testosterone alone as an indication of level playing field but they do not take into account training effect. Many trans make treatment and lifestyle choices to deliberately accelerate atrophy and avoid strength training, and have never trained to begin with.

And that doesn’t even go into the other physiological factors at play, lung capacity, etc.

[zeb1]

It always makes me smile when convoluted left wing policies come back to bite them in the butt. This time was especially amusing. But…there will be more.

[EyeDentist]

@twojarslave

Simply stated, they seem pretty politically-motivated to me

Given Title IX, and the emphasis placed on prioritizing female participation in college athletics, you think the NCAA is politically motivated to enact something that would compromise the athletics experience of 99.9% of its female athletes? Color me skeptical.

@twojarslave

Are you suggesting that the same sex-based advantages that have allowed me, a guy who does not train anywhere near as well as world-class female lifters do, to pull more than any of them ever have will be washed away after a year of hormone therapy? No freaking way.

I have already addressed this issue. And once again, you are guilty of pre-judging it.

@Silyak

They studied it? Or they had some lawyers study the politics of it and come up with a policy that was most likely to be most profitable and politically correct?

Because I looked at it and found no scientific studies cited by the NCAA. As far as I can tell the policy is pulled out from where the sun doesn’t shine based on what sounded good to some “experts.”

From the NCAA guidelines:

Do Transitioned Athletes Compete at an Advantage or Disadvantage - LITERATURE REVIEW. Michaela C. Devries (may 18, 2008). Available online at http://http:.caaws.ca/e/ resources/pdfs/Devries_lit_review(2).pdf.

Goorin, Louis, and Mathijs Bunck, “Transsexuals and Competitive Sports,” European Journal of Endocrinology 151 (2004): 425-429. Available online at http://www.eje.org/cgi/reprint/151/4/425.pdf.

Sarah Teetzel, “On Transgendered Athletes, Fairness and Doping: An International Challenge,” Sport in Society: cultures, commerce, media, Politics, 1743-0445, Volume 9, Issue 2 (2006) Pages 227 – 251.

@debraD

Look no further than this specific case: you have an athlete who trained seriously for years and was mediocre as a male weightlifter but in one competition blows away her competitors and puts up lifts that would have put her in the top 4 snatch and top ten total the last Olympics. AT 39 years old, which is GERIATRIC in weightlifting. Are you seriously going to argue there is not enough information there to make a judgement?

I am indeed. First, anecdotes are, well, anecdotal. Second, what do we know about this individual’s hormonal status over the past year?

@debraD

The IOC and NCAA may have come up with guidelines but by no means that that it is based on reality in terms of the transitioning of trained athletes especially in strength sports. They measure testosterone alone as an indication of level playing field but they do not take into account training effect.

As I have said several times, if the current guidelines are found to be inequitable, they can and should be modified. And if evidence of an unmodifiable advantage comes to light, then TG athletes who enjoy that advantage should be barred from competing against cis-athletes.

[twojarslave]

@EyeDentist

you think the NCAA is politically motivated

Yes, you read that correctly. Whether they fear an activist backlash or have other motives, I absolutely believe politics is playing a huge role in this policy. You seem to believe that this is an apolitical policy. Well, color me skeptical. That doesn’t pass the smell test any more than trying to convince me that a women’s weighlifting champion can have a penis.

@EyeDentist

I have already addressed this issue. And once again, you are guilty of pre-judging it.

I’m definitely guilty as charged there. @debraD explained the basis for judgement quite well. It pains me so, since I’ve finally found the inspiration I needed to rekindle my late 30’s fat guy Olympic aspirations.

[EyeDentist]

@twojarslave

You seem to believe that this is an apolitical policy

What I pointed out was not that the process was apolitical so much as that it was subjected to two directly opposing nexuses of political pressure.

[SkyzykS]

How about we figure out the science of gender transitions THEN make policy based on the science of it, instead of pushing the policy ahead and figuring it out later?

That seems to be the thing to do with trendy left pet policy. Global Warming- The science is settled- we just can’t come up with an accurate model that reflects what happens…

The ACA- You have to pass it to find out what is in it…

Trans competition- We don’t actually know, but we’ll write the policy anyways.

The guy that has been trying to slim down and become more feminine for a couple years now-

Janae Marie Kroc (@janaemariekroc) • Instagram photos and videos

You don’t have to scientifically analyze something to know that it is horse shit.

The IOC policy is basically just tuck your junk, then grip and rip.

[SkyzykS]

@EyeDentist

As I have said several times, if the current guidelines are found to be inequitable, they can and should be modified. And if evidence of an unmodifiable advantage comes to light, then TG athletes who enjoy that advantage should be barred from competing against cis-athletes.

How does that remedy legitimate born women that loose opportunities for participation in world class competitions like the Olympics- when the window of opportunity closes as a function of time?

[EyeDentist]

@SkyzykS

How does that remedy legitimate born women that loose opportunities for participation in world class competitions like the Olympics- when the window of opportunity closes as a function of time?

The exact same ‘window of opportunity’ issue faces TG athletes.

[SkyzykS]

Not when their hormone profile is being chemically controlled.

Its like reverse doping- suppress them as needed then train without suppression.

It like the assumption that an athlete is clean because he passed a test at a certain point, when if you want to be particular about it- really only means that he was clean for the test.

And as much as you would like to scramble to the “anectdotal” argument- A 39 year old smoked competitors in their prime.

[EyeDentist]

@SkyzykS

Not when their hormone profile is being chemically controlled.

Its like reverse doping- suppress them as needed then train without suppression.

It like the assumption that an athlete is clean because he passed a test at a certain point, when if you want to be particular about it- really only means that he was clean for the test.

Note that everything you said here could apply to a cis-female who is doping.

In short, TG individuals are not the only ones who can manipulate their hormone levels to gain a competitive advantage. Thus, I don’t see how this is germane to the discussion at hand.

@SkyzykS

And as much as you would like to scramble to the “anectdotal” argument- A 39 year old smoked competitors in their prime.

Are you aware of her hormonal history, and how it was assessed? I ask because I know nothing about it. This is an important aspect of the story, don’t you agree? Was she castrated (chemically, or the old-fashioned way)? If so, for how long? What were her test levels? Was she receiving estrogen? I have no idea, and assume you don’t either.

Don’t get me wrong–anecdotes have their place. (I just dropped one on the FDA thread.) They make for good jumping-off points for exploring issues. But it’s important to recognize their limitations. And in the present case, not only are y’all placing inordinate weight on an anecdote, it’s an incomplete anecdote at that. You’re over your (snow) skis.