T Nation

Transwoman Takes First Place

The bad news is its weightlifting which not enough people care about, when this happens in more mainstream sports it might have an impact.

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I feel like I could make a name for myself in women’s basketball and softball. I’ll be the next Bo Jackson… except transgendered.

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Depends on whether the playing field was level. Don’t you agree?

If it’s important enough to you to be chemically (or surgically!) castrated…

In order for an empirical determination to be made, you would need an empirical definition of biological sex. That is, I need to be able to run a series of tests and be able to determine based on the results of those tests the sex of the person being tested. Many would argue that we have such tests today, but the entire concept of transgenderism is built on the premise that these tests are, at least in some cases, flawed.

It’s contradictory to believe that a man can be a woman if he feels that he is while at the same time he can be conclusively tested for gender.

I disagree. I cannot comprehend any line of reasoning that reaches the conclusion that Hubbard competing against women is fair. It seems as though you can, but it is hard to tell because you can’t give a straight answer to the question.

This is a horrible outcome for everyone. Trans people especially. Having a “woman” like Hubbard winning international weightlifting competitions is NOT going to shape public opinion on trans people positively. I’m all for treating everyone well, but that stops short of giving complete deference to someone who wants EVERYONE else to go along with their game of make-believe.

I’ll try one more time. Since you won’t come out and say that Hubbard winning is a bad outcome, can you explain ANY set of circumstances where it would be a good outcome?

EyeDentist is living under the delusion that it can be objectively determined if the playing field is fair and that it matters. Ultimately, the only way to prove that men competing as women don’t have an unfair advantage is for them to lose. If he beats a biological woman (and that includes coming in second to last place), then there is a strong case to be made that he had an advantage due to his sex.

Even if he/she comes in dead last, it’s pretty easy to make a case that an unfair advantage was had over anyone that didn’t qualify due to a long history of male level T levels.

Theoretically, I guess a pre puberty sex change would be acceptable (imo).

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We have that covered. XX = female biological sex; XY = male.

At this point, we have no objective test regarding the status of one’s gender, and thus have to rely on self-reporting.

Well, I would say the premise of TGism is that gender does not always align with biological sex.

As noted above, no such test exists (at present).

Presumably, you would deem it fair for Hubbard to compete against women in, say, chess, because being genotypically and/or phenotypically male offers no competitive advantage in that ‘sport.’ In like fashion, what I am arguing is this: In any sport in which it can be demonstrated that a MTF TG individual has no inherent advantages, there is no compelling reason they should be barred from competing against cis-gendered women.

I see your point here, and it is, unfortunately, valid. But it doesn’t relate to the fundamental issues that should determine who gets to compete against whom.

I’m not trying to be obtuse or difficult here, but I have to ask for clarification. With respect to ‘outcome,’ are you referring to a ‘trans public relations’ perspective, or to a ‘what’s right’ perspective?

Can you name a sport where this could conceivably be the case? Chess is a board game with no physical demands. That’s why very few people would give a shit if a transgender person was out there dominating chess.

Good by any measure, even subjective. Let’s hear it. How can Hubbard winning a women’s weightlifting competition possibly be good?

You are pre-judging the science. Like I said, it is an empirical issue.

I’m sure we can all agree that if a genetically male individual lives an extended period of time–say, >1 yr–with the hormone profile of a woman, his athletic performance in most sports will be sharply degraded. What I don’t know, what you don’t know, is whether certain aspects of his phenotype that are impervious to alterations in hormonal milieu would continue to give him a competitive advantage that would cause him to fall outside the normal distribution of athletic-performance indices for women who have endogenous female hormonal profiles. (Damn, that was a long sentence.) Whether that is in fact the case is (IMO) the only relevant issue regarding who should compete against whom.

If Hubbard enjoyed no competitive advantage owing to the residual aspects of being born biologically male, then her record-setting performance should be celebrated just like any other would.

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Hi. Yeah, the sample sizes in these things are small since TG athletes are rare, and having an elite male athlete transition and compete as a female, rarer still.

I recall you put up a study in the Kroc thread, and we discussed it a bit. Most of the physiological changes happened after one year of hormone therapy. The authors were unable to say definitively that the TG MTF athlete would not maintain some competitive advantage. Is that what you remember? Sorry, I don’t have time to go look it up right now.

I would agree, but just so you know, this puts you at odds with progressive thinking on this issue. In CA, high school students can participate in athletics based on their gender identity. CIF (high school fed) can conduct an individual review for each athlete, but they do not consider hormonal history, as that could disqualify any TG athlete born male. For the NCAA, you need to be hormonally female for a year.

Hey Deb. Good to see you! Yeah, I think we’re in agreement, particularly about physiology that’s formed over a lifetime under the influence of male hormones. I don’t know enough about PEDS to think that the FTM athlete might have an advantage over the natural males. I believe your position is counter to the NCAA and rules by CA’s CIF federation for high school athletes. I was thinking the only time this becomes an issue is when there’s a biological male who wants to transition and compete as a female, not the other way around.

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It seems as though answering the question that neither of us know would be very resource intensive. It also seems like measuring individual athletes would also be very resource-intensive. I agree it would be good to know the answer to these questions, but how many new hoops do we need to introduce for the girls to get together and play some organized sports?

I only had a semester and a half of college, but isn’t this a “no-brainer” to anyone who has ever lifted weights? I’m just a chubby IT worker who likes to lift weights and I’ve deadlifted more than any woman in the history of powerlifting. Short of actual mutilation, do treatments exist that could ever negate that advantage if I woke up tomorrow and realized I’m actually a woman?

@Alrightmiami19c said it simply. This is absurd. No battery of experiments exist that will ever convince the average person that Hubbard won fairly or is deserving of celebration. Because he’s not.

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How will we empirically study this? The numbers are incredibly small. And if we can bring Hubbard down to the level of the most elite female lifters, is that good enough for you? What if a TG athlete like Hubbard sets every female world record? Will you be fine with that, and assume she has ever right to do that? We should all celebrate?

We’re a bunch of experienced lifters here. I don’t think anyone here, maybe yourself excluded, imagines that a lifetime of male hormones wouldn’t give someone an advantage.

BUT I will say that any female who complains about this will be skewered as insensitive. It’s not politically ok to disagree with any of this, or you’re going to be labeled a “very bad person.”

It’s just like the first time I saw a bench-press shirt, or a sumo deadlift.

Somehow, I knew that stuff was cheating.

But like, rationally, by the rules it’s OK.

The actual NZ heavyweight women’s champion Iuniara Sipia can be seen to the left of the smug asshole who cost two women their Olympic slots. She looks so thrilled to be part of this landmark achievement in women’s weightlifting.

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On the bright side, maybe this will catch on and the WNBA can finally get some decent players.

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Rodman’s probably ready to lace 'em up and dominate women’s pro basketball in his 50’s.

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Hey Puff :slight_smile:

Totally agreed. This is a big problem about Transgender issues in general. Anything that isn’t 100% supportive of the position of trans activists is treated as bigotry and hatred, by very vocal trans activists. It makes it impossible to have a fair reasoned discussion.

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When I was about 11 years old, my gymnastics club didn’t have an appropriate group for my age and skill level and they put me with a bunch of girls that were younger and it was a total mismatch for the end of term competition. It was an embarrassment as I cleaned up and took 1st place in every category. Even at 11 I knew it was a bullshit arrangement and pride is not what I felt. If it were up to me I would have skipped the competition altogether.

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I’m 100% alright with that. I very very rarely align with anything in its entirety. I think it’s almost always shortsighted.

Personally I can accept that at the HS level, as statistically so few of those people will go pro that it rounds down to 0. That being said, when it comes to matters of strength, I would say to exclude any trans that underwent male puberty before the MTF switch.