Testosterone Tests Came Back

Pharma / TRT Testosterone Replacement
61

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
ill try taking a stab at it since we have alot of similar numbers and symptoms.

i think the high cortisol is lowering your testosterone. its a known fact. do you store most of your fat around the lower abs? thats high cortisol. try some rhodiola.

your t3 and t4 look fine but your tsh is kind of high. this means your body wants more thyroid hormone than it is getting. high cortisol prevents thyroid hormone from getting into the cells. this would also cause your highish reverse t3 number. again, rhodiola will fix this.

your e2 is way too high. this would cause brain fog, lethargy, storing fat on your chest and thighs, and ED issues. it also lowers testosterone a ton. do you take any zinc? 30-60mg of zinc a day, everyday, forever is what i take. you can try some DIM and calcium d-glucarate too. if you want a really fast solution i suggest PES erase, its what i take. grape seed extract also inhibits aromatase.

do you get enough iodine and selenium? those are very important for thyroid.

try some tongkat ali and tribulus, which raise testosterone. see how you feel after a month.

we are the same age and i would never, never, NEVER go on trt at this age. there is no reason for our body to just stop producing testosteron for no reason. lets fix the underlying cause with nutrients and supplements, not put a trt bandaid over it.[/quote]

Can you recieve private messages?

i have a month til my next appointment so i guess it cant hurt to try a more conservative route with supplementation.

rhodiola - do you have any good reccomendations or will any brand work? I’d hate to buy something that doesn’t absorb well.

for the zinc. i could just pick up any ole ZMA supplement right?

PES erase looks pretty tough, i’ve always had a fear of taking anything hormonal are you aware of any bad reactions to this. I am very open to trying this.

tongkat ali and tribulus - do you have any good reccomendations for these or should i just do a big brand like 10$ ON bottles (should i wait to get something that blocks estrogen first since i may already have an aromatase issue and this may slighly raise testosterone?)

the only supplement i currently take is animal pak. but i only take 1 pack a day instead of two so i only get half of what is on the label[/quote]

no, my PMs never send or receive.

for rhodiola im currently using NOW foods brand, its good stuff. but ive used swanon brand and it was good as well. as long as the total rosavins is 12.5-15mg per pill youre good. Biotest makes a real high quality one ive yet to try.

you could pick up ZMA if you can get it for cheap. i actually buy cheap zinc citrate and magnesium citrate separate and i can get them both for under $15 and they last 2 months.

ive never experienced or seen bad reactions on forums from erase. its a pretty legit supplement. it can look scary when you look at the ingredient but really its just a metabolite of DHEA. if youre unsure if you want to take it, patrick arnold recommends grape seed extract (95% OPC) at 400mg for estrogen. im trying it in a week when my erase runs out.

for tribulus ive used NOW foods brand for a while and it was really good stuff. i could feel it hit me 15 mins after i took it on the way to the gym. swanson makes a decent one too. as long as its minimum 40% saponins youre good.

for tongkat ive been using swanson brand for a long time. the 400mg root powder pills. ive tried the 100:1 extract from source naturals and didnt notice a difference between the two.

hope that helps. also if you have trouble falling asleep from high cortisol, i take ashwagandha and it knocks me right out.[/quote]

do you get labs done between the erase or taking any of these supplements to see if your levels have gotten better?[/quote]

no ive only got 2 tests that were 1 year apart. my testosterone jumped from 429 to 651 by implementing tribulus, tongkat and a few other things for a year. in my case there was long term effects. i can imagine my T finally getting into the 800s once i bring my cortisol and estrogen down.

i can tell visually when my estrogen is too high because i retain water and add fat to my chest without a change in calories. i also have trouble getting and keeping a pump when my estrogen is high.[/quote]

oh cool, so did you ever cycle these supplements?

obviously the pes erase needs cycling but the others? or do you take the trib and stuff year around?[/quote]

i always cycled trib and tongkat 5 days on 2 days off, for months at a time. i havent taken anything in 3 months though.

the pes erase is 8 weeks on 4 weeks off.

i honestly bet if you took trib, tongkat and erase, within a month youll feel like a new man. if you add some nettle root and mucuna pruriens youll never even think of TRT and will go the herbal root forever.[/quote]

lol i have so many questions to ask you i’ll probably ask them in the supplement thread i made though since that seems more appropriate i think.

actually do you have an e-mail address or facebook or something you wouldn’t mind that i could talk to you through?

62

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
ill try taking a stab at it since we have alot of similar numbers and symptoms.

i think the high cortisol is lowering your testosterone. its a known fact. do you store most of your fat around the lower abs? thats high cortisol. try some rhodiola.

your t3 and t4 look fine but your tsh is kind of high. this means your body wants more thyroid hormone than it is getting. high cortisol prevents thyroid hormone from getting into the cells. this would also cause your highish reverse t3 number. again, rhodiola will fix this.

your e2 is way too high. this would cause brain fog, lethargy, storing fat on your chest and thighs, and ED issues. it also lowers testosterone a ton. do you take any zinc? 30-60mg of zinc a day, everyday, forever is what i take. you can try some DIM and calcium d-glucarate too. if you want a really fast solution i suggest PES erase, its what i take. grape seed extract also inhibits aromatase.

do you get enough iodine and selenium? those are very important for thyroid.

try some tongkat ali and tribulus, which raise testosterone. see how you feel after a month.

we are the same age and i would never, never, NEVER go on trt at this age. there is no reason for our body to just stop producing testosteron for no reason. lets fix the underlying cause with nutrients and supplements, not put a trt bandaid over it.[/quote]

Can you recieve private messages?

i have a month til my next appointment so i guess it cant hurt to try a more conservative route with supplementation.

rhodiola - do you have any good reccomendations or will any brand work? I’d hate to buy something that doesn’t absorb well.

for the zinc. i could just pick up any ole ZMA supplement right?

PES erase looks pretty tough, i’ve always had a fear of taking anything hormonal are you aware of any bad reactions to this. I am very open to trying this.

tongkat ali and tribulus - do you have any good reccomendations for these or should i just do a big brand like 10$ ON bottles (should i wait to get something that blocks estrogen first since i may already have an aromatase issue and this may slighly raise testosterone?)

the only supplement i currently take is animal pak. but i only take 1 pack a day instead of two so i only get half of what is on the label[/quote]

no, my PMs never send or receive.

for rhodiola im currently using NOW foods brand, its good stuff. but ive used swanon brand and it was good as well. as long as the total rosavins is 12.5-15mg per pill youre good. Biotest makes a real high quality one ive yet to try.

you could pick up ZMA if you can get it for cheap. i actually buy cheap zinc citrate and magnesium citrate separate and i can get them both for under $15 and they last 2 months.

ive never experienced or seen bad reactions on forums from erase. its a pretty legit supplement. it can look scary when you look at the ingredient but really its just a metabolite of DHEA. if youre unsure if you want to take it, patrick arnold recommends grape seed extract (95% OPC) at 400mg for estrogen. im trying it in a week when my erase runs out.

for tribulus ive used NOW foods brand for a while and it was really good stuff. i could feel it hit me 15 mins after i took it on the way to the gym. swanson makes a decent one too. as long as its minimum 40% saponins youre good.

for tongkat ive been using swanson brand for a long time. the 400mg root powder pills. ive tried the 100:1 extract from source naturals and didnt notice a difference between the two.

hope that helps. also if you have trouble falling asleep from high cortisol, i take ashwagandha and it knocks me right out.[/quote]

do you get labs done between the erase or taking any of these supplements to see if your levels have gotten better?[/quote]

no ive only got 2 tests that were 1 year apart. my testosterone jumped from 429 to 651 by implementing tribulus, tongkat and a few other things for a year. in my case there was long term effects. i can imagine my T finally getting into the 800s once i bring my cortisol and estrogen down.

i can tell visually when my estrogen is too high because i retain water and add fat to my chest without a change in calories. i also have trouble getting and keeping a pump when my estrogen is high.[/quote]

oh cool, so did you ever cycle these supplements?

obviously the pes erase needs cycling but the others? or do you take the trib and stuff year around?[/quote]

i always cycled trib and tongkat 5 days on 2 days off, for months at a time. i havent taken anything in 3 months though.

the pes erase is 8 weeks on 4 weeks off.

i honestly bet if you took trib, tongkat and erase, within a month youll feel like a new man. if you add some nettle root and mucuna pruriens youll never even think of TRT and will go the herbal root forever.[/quote]

lol i have so many questions to ask you i’ll probably ask them in the supplement thread i made though since that seems more appropriate i think.

actually do you have an e-mail address or facebook or something you wouldn’t mind that i could talk to you through?[/quote]

if you prefer email we could, but i think that theres so many guys out there with the same questions as you that if we discussed it in the supplement thread it would help out so many other people too. its up to you though.

63

whats to stop E2 from going back up after a cycle of pes erase?

64

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
whats to stop E2 from going back up after a cycle of pes erase?[/quote]

ive spoken to the PES reps on another forum about that and their reasoning is this. they say that erase is a suicide aromatase inhibitor, so it kills off the enzymes that are responsible for converting testosterone into estrogen. by taking the erase for 8 weeks it completely kills them off and essentially your body is producing no estrogen. so the 4 weeks that you take off between cycles your body is just trying to create new enzymes from scratch so that you can produce estrogen again. by the time it does that the 4 weeks are over and youre back on your next 8 week cycle.

65

not sure if you ordered PES erase yet, but ive been doing a ton of research on grape seed extract and decided to use it as my aromatase inhibitor of choice. safer and cheaper than erase. i get 400mg of it in my custom test booster.

Grape seed extract is an aromatase inhibitor and a suppressor of aromatase expression.
Kijima I, Phung S, Hur G, Kwok SL, Chen S.
Source
Department of Surgical Research, Beckman Research Institute of the City of Hope, Duarte, California, USA.
Abstract
Aromatase is the enzyme that converts androgen to estrogen. It is expressed at higher levels in breast cancer tissues than normal breast tissues. Grape seed extract (GSE) contains high levels of procyanidin dimers that have been shown in our laboratory to be potent inhibitors of aromatase. In this study, GSE was found to inhibit aromatase activity in a dose-dependent manner and reduce androgen-dependent tumor growth in an aromatase-transfected MCF-7 (MCF-7aro) breast cancer xenograft model, agreeing with our previous findings. We have also examined the effect of GSE on aromatase expression. Reverse transcription-PCR experiments showed that treatment with 60 mug/mL of GSE suppressed the levels of exon I.3-, exon PII-, and exon I.6-containing aromatase mRNAs in MCF-7 and SK-BR-3 cells. The levels of exon I.1-containing mRNA, however, did not change with GSE treatment. Transient transfection experiments with luciferase-aromatase promoter I.3/II or I.4 reporter vectors showed the suppression of the promoter activity in a dose-dependent manner. The GSE treatment also led to the down-regulation of two transcription factors, cyclic AMP-responsive element binding protein-1 (CREB-1) and glucocorticoid receptor (GR). CREB-1 and GR are known to up-regulate aromatase gene expression through promoters I.3/II and I.4, respectively. We believe that these results are exciting in that they show GSE to be potentially useful in the prevention/treatment of hormone-dependent breast cancer through the inhibition of aromatase activity as well as its expression.

66

i was pretty convinced that i wanted to do pes erase, but since this is more conservative im going to look into it some more thank your wannabebig

67

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
i was pretty convinced that i wanted to do pes erase, but since this is more conservative im going to look into it some more thank your wannabebig[/quote]

no problem man, let me know how it works out for you.

68

got a 24 urine cortisol test that came back in the low 130s and the endo said normal would have been like 50.

i just got out of the army.
and i just moved out of my apartment where me and all my roommates hated eachother.
hopefully this lowers my stress. but there has to be something else going on to make my cortisol 2.5 times higher than it should be.

40-50% of my cals come from carbs, blueberries, strawberries, apples, bannanas, white rice, broccoli. and only 20% from fats. So should i lower the carbs and increase the fats. would this help?

69

I don’t understand why docs are so hesitant to perform testing. I can understand why they wouldn’t want to prescribe medications they think they might get in trouble for, but testing I wouldn’t think would be a big deal. I couldn’t get my doc to test for E2…I had to do it out of pocket. Pretty irritating…

70

[quote]paulieserafini wrote:
got a 24 urine cortisol test that came back in the low 130s and the endo said normal would have been like 50.

i just got out of the army.
and i just moved out of my apartment where me and all my roommates hated eachother.
hopefully this lowers my stress. but there has to be something else going on to make my cortisol 2.5 times higher than it should be.

40-50% of my cals come from carbs, blueberries, strawberries, apples, bannanas, white rice, broccoli. and only 20% from fats. So should i lower the carbs and increase the fats. would this help?[/quote]
20% from fats? shocking. Ofcourse it would help.

71

Does anyone think it would be completely asinine for me to do a typical beginner 8-10 week cycle of test, with AI and Nolva pct.

What I mean is, what are the chances I would mess myself up even more.

the pct would kinda be like doing a restart aswell right? (I know this question kinda sounds dumb)

,oh not that I have plans to do this in the near future I would just like to know if it’s worth taking the time to research and plan.

72

It is a crap shoot. Some will recover, others have brittle HPTA’s.

You missed: “Do you get enough iodine and selenium? those are very important for thyroid.”
Using iodized salt?

73

[quote]KSman wrote:
It is a crap shoot. Some will recover, others have brittle HPTA’s.

You missed: “Do you get enough iodine and selenium? those are very important for thyroid.”
Using iodized salt?[/quote]

no idea if i get enough selenium.

I use to use idonized salt in huge quantities when I first found out about this, I use it maybe once or twice a day now.

Honestly even though my numbers are low I wonder if anything is really wrong with me. I lost 35lbs from feb til now, retained nearly all of my muscle. I’m bigger than the average person. and I don’t know if this has anything to do with the weightloss but, my depression and irritability seem to not be nearly as bad as it use to be.

I mean my test is low but other than getting sleepy in the afternoons I don’t even think i have symptoms of low test. In the morning i want to fuck anything and everything. i mean my sex drive is non existent at night.

74

I’ve pretty much given up I’ve been to 4 doctors and they all have turned me away

75

Your FSH and low T suggests that you have secondary hypogonadism. If you did a SERM challenge with nolvadex and FSH/LH and T increased, that would confirm and demonstrate that your testes work.

You are very estrogen dominant and until the reasons are found, you would do well taking 0.5mg anastrozole in EOD divided doses. Pills do not split well that way. Some make solutions with vodka and dispense with a dropper bottle.

E2 can be elevated from liver problems. One of you AST/ALT markers was high.

Some drugs, OTC and Rx [list these], as well as grapefruit reduce the liver’s ability to clear estrogens. Other than that, there can be medical issues.

You have unexplained weight loss?
Ever get rashes?

Thyroid problems can lower T and make you unwell. We are trying to learn about your iodine intake and body temperatures, thyroid labs etc.

This is a problem: "TSH SENSITIVE… 2.810 (0.27-4.2) mcIU/mL "
Please post your waking and mid afternoon oral body temperatures.

If we cannot fix a thyroid problem, you will need to:
-attempt an HPTA restart with active E2 management during and long term after
-start TRT with active E2 management during and long term after

Are you getting exposed to chemicals or fumes? This can alter liver function.

76

[quote]KSman wrote:
Your FSH and low T suggests that you have secondary hypogonadism. If you did a SERM challenge with nolvadex and FSH/LH and T increased, that would confirm and demonstrate that your testes work.

You are very estrogen dominant and until the reasons are found, you would do well taking 0.5mg anastrozole in EOD divided doses. Pills do not split well that way. Some make solutions with vodka and dispense with a dropper bottle.

E2 can be elevated from liver problems. One of you AST/ALT markers was high.

Some drugs, OTC and Rx [list these], as well as grapefruit reduce the liver’s ability to clear estrogens. Other than that, there can be medical issues.

You have unexplained weight loss?
Ever get rashes?

Thyroid problems can lower T and make you unwell. We are trying to learn about your iodine intake and body temperatures, thyroid labs etc.

This is a problem: "TSH SENSITIVE… 2.810 (0.27-4.2) mcIU/mL "
Please post your waking and mid afternoon oral body temperatures.

If we cannot fix a thyroid problem, you will need to:
-attempt an HPTA restart with active E2 management during and long term after
-start TRT with active E2 management during and long term after

Are you getting exposed to chemicals or fumes? This can alter liver function.[/quote]

a few things.

I was deployed from Jan 2011 until about Sept 2011. While on this deployment our only drinkable water source were plastic water bottles which were sometimes stored right in the blazing sun of the Middle East. During this time I was very stressed out and I was going hard on a bulk and gained a huge amount of weight.

Got up to atleast 30% bodyfat.

I’ve lost 40lbs over the past 11 months. My avatar pic is a current picture of me. Still probably over 15% bodyfat.

Things I’m wondering since fat stores toxins losing the fat possibly released a lot of them back into my body, correct?

Also I’m also agreeing with you my liver may be having trouble getting rid of some of these. I do feel much better than back then even though I haven’t gotten any tests done in close to 6 months.

buying a thermometer right now I will post my temp soon.

I probably don’t get enough selenium and yes I do currently use iodonized salt. actually I probably use way too much. I generously put it on nearly every meal.

Selenium, According to fit day (I count and record all my food daily and eat the same foods every day except for cheat days) I get 255mcg of selenium a day. I don’t know if this is sufficient or if my food truly carries this much selenium. I’ve been looking up ways to add whole foods to my diet that should have selenium in them but have yet to actually add any.

no rashes, what type of fumes? No I don’t think so but I’m starting a chemistry lab so maybe in the future.

When I was younger I was a heavy drinker for many years but lately I average drinking only once a month or once every couple months. I was also a heavy smoker for years.

77

Edited twice. Okay measured wrong in the morning.

2 hours after working out and an hour after my post workout meal at about 2:30pm my temp was between 98.1 and 98.5

78

morning temp before leaving bed: 97.6

79

Researching T protocols,

lets say someone was getting once a week Test cyp injection 100mg on a monday then using two 500 IU doses of HCG on Wednesday and Friday… would the HCG help minimize the peaks and valleys of a once a week T injection?

also if anyone that previously followed this thread I brought my natural T up to 495 ng/dl on a 250-1100 range.

80

You’re getting ahead of yourself. There are some obvious steps you need to take before jumping into T replacement.

High cortisol - Get this down. It can have a huge impact on other hormones. Check out this article for some suggestions. http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/the_truth_about_adrenal_fatigue

High E2 - Get this down. I wouldn’t even bother with OTC stuff. Get some aromasin from a research chem company or international pharmacy. Try 25mg MWF if you get pills, or lower dose every day if you go with the research chem company. Retest and adjust dose as needed. Aim for around 20.

You get these two things under control and I bet it’s a completely different picture. Don’t make this harder then it has to be.

Using HCG to increase T as an adjunct to test never made sense to me. If HCG raises T for you, just take HCG. Again, I don’t think you need to go there yet.