Terrible Americans in War on Terror

[quote]sjoconn wrote:
Great work Prof. I attended a course at Ft Bragg with a soldier from Suriname. He was a very interesting fellow.

Maybe I am reading people wrong, but if you’ll allow for me to paraphrase a few threads I will illustrate how I get this opinion.
Threads that read (paraphrased):
“American soldiers randomly kill civilians”
“American soldiers haphazardly torture innocent people”
“American Soldiers commit war crimes by using WP”
I may be reading to much into it…but judging by a few of the others who responded, Im not the only one.

I dont expect to change anyones opinion on the war effort. And I know that no one here will change my opinion. Like I said, I just thought that with all the negitive post ( a new one every time I turn around) maybe we needed a little balance. I honestly think that many people are completely unaware that anything positive is being done.
[/quote]

I think you are among many who actually do believe that anyone who speaks against the war is either also against the troops or simply unpatriotic. It is the line that has been sold to the majority of the public as if speaking against any of these operations means you are a lunatic, or you hate your own countrymen. It is complete BS and a very public way of silencing anyone who may not agree with a stance of the current administration.

Follow this, in a Fox News report:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176139,00.html

it was stated, "“People should feel comfortable about expressing their opinions about Iraq,” Bush said, three days after agreeing with Vice President Dick Cheney that the critics were “reprehensible.”

Now, wait a second, I thought we had been told by many conservatives on this site that NO ONE ever said that speaking against the war was unpatriotic? Well, how did Dick Cheney AND Bush say the act was “reprehensible”?

Face it, the majority have been fed that speaking against the war is damn near like treason. This is false. It does not mean anyone is against the troops. Perhaps you should actually try listening to what people really are saying? I can’t believe the power that has been wielded in this country all because of fear.

I think the point is that a lot of soldiers don’t think the media is giving an accurate portrayal of what’s going on over in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Take this recent post by journalist and soldier Austin Bay for example:

http://austinbay.net/blog/?p=704

The E-mail Weapon: Troops Tackle Bad Media

After my return from Iraq I received phone calls and emails from military friends as they either came back to the US on leave or finished their tours and re-deployed ?Stateside.? The typical phone call went like this: ?I?m back. It?s great to be home. What?s up? How are you doing?? Then, the conversation quickly moved on to: ?What?s with the press and Iraq?? The press usually meant television. On tv Iraq looked like it was going to Hell in a handbasket of flame and brutality; however, the images of carnage didn?t square with the troops? experience.

Today on StrategyPage, my good friend Jim Dunnigan takes on the subject of ?troop/press dissonance? from his typically idiosyncratic angle. I?m going to quote from ?There?s more going on in Iraq than a media event? at length. (As the essay notes, there is also more going on in Iraq than a war.) Visit StrategyPage ( http://www.strategypage.com/ )and read the second story, ?Journalism versus Reality.? ( http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htiw/articles/20051120.aspx )

A column I wrote in early 2005 provides an illustration of Jim?s point ( http://www.strategypage.com/onpoint/articles/2005322.asp ) . The column considers events in Iraq circa July 2004? and one reason I think the press coverage is all too often spotty, negative, and narrow.

A couple of key grafs in that Creators Syndicate column (dated March 2005):

[i]Collect relatively isolated events in a chronological list and presto: the impression of uninterrupted, widespread violence destroying Iraq. But that was a false impression. Every day, coalition forces were moving thousands of 18-wheelers from Kuwait and Turkey into Iraq, and if the ?insurgents? were lucky they blew up one. However, flash the flames of that one rig on CNN and, ?Oh my God, America can?t stop these guys,? is the impression left in Boise and Beijing.

Saddam?s thugs and Zarqawi?s klan were actually weak enemies ? ?brittle? is the word I used to describe them at a senior planning meeting. Their local power was based on intimidation ? killing by car bomb, murdering in the street. Their strategic power was based solely on selling the false impression of nationwide quagmire ? selling post-Saddam Iraq as a dysfunctional failed-state, rather than an emerging democracy? [/i]

Here?s Jim Dunnigan, from StrategyPage November 20, 2005:

[i]IRAQ: There?s More Going On in Iraq Than a Media Event

November 20, 2005: If it weren?t for Internet access to troops, expatriates and Iraqis in Iraq, you would think that coalition military operations in Iraq were a major disaster, and that prompt withdrawal was the only reasonable course of action. But the mass media view of the situation is largely fiction, conjured up in editorial offices outside Iraq, with foreign reporters in Iraq (most of them rarely leaving their heavily guarded hotels) providing color commentary, and not much else. So what do the troops and Iraqis say?

First, there is definitely a terrorism problem. Not an insurgency, not a guerilla war, not a resistance. A portion of the Sunni Arab population refuses to recognize the Sunni Arab loss of power in early 2003. They are supporting a campaign of terror to either get back power or, more pragmatically, to get immunity for most Sunni Arabs for crimes committed during Saddams decades in power. The majority of support the terrorists get is from the amnesty crowd. Hundreds of thousands of Sunni Arab families have one or more members who did Saddam?s dirty work. That has left millions of Kurds and Shia Arabs looking for revenge. Remember, this is where the legal concept of ?eye-for-an-eye? was invented thousands of years ago. The children of Hammurabi want their measure of vengeance, and if they get it, the current violence in Iraq will look pallid by comparison. All the prevents a wholesale descent into mutual slaughter is the presence of coalition troops. In other parts of the world (and there are many to examine at the moment) this sort of thing is called peacekeeping. Withdraw the peacekeepers, and what peace there is goes with them.

Second, there is a cultural crises, in the Arab world in particular, and the Moslem world in general. The crises is expressed by a lack of economic, educational and political performance. By whatever measure you wish to use, Nobel prizes, patents awarded, GDP growth, the Arabs have fallen behind the rest of the world. Part of the problem is the Arab tendency to blame outsiders, and to avoid taking responsibility. Tolerating tyranny and resistance to change doesn?t help either. That is changing, and the war in Iraq has become the center of this cultural battle. It began with the 2003 invasion, which was reported by the Arab media as a great defeat for the Western ?crusader? army. Until, that is, it was all too obvious that American troops had battled their way to Baghdad in three weeks, and were quickly defeating Iraqi forced defending this cultural capital of the Arab world. This triggered a debate in the Arab world, one that got little coverage in the West. It began when some Arab journalists openly pointed out, in the Arab media, that Arab reporters had not only been writing fantastical stories that had no relationship to reality, but that this sort of thing had been going on for a long time and, gosh, maybe it had something to do with the sorry state of affairs in the Arab world. That particular debate is still going on, largely unnoticed in the West. This is the real war against terrorism, because the terrorists represent the forces of repression and backwardness in the Arab world.

Third, the bad guys are really, really bad, but they have many prominent allies around the world. Most Iraqis cannot understand how so many media outlets in the West can keep giving favorable coverage to the Sunni Arab terrorists. These guys are butchers, and many used to work for Saddam, committing the same kind of mayhem. Yet these European reporters come looking for Sunni Arab ?victims? of ?American imperialism.? How strange is that? Nothing strange, just another cultural quirk. The Europeans are much more risk averse than Americans. We all remember the 1930s, where most of Europe left Hitler alone, hoping that they could talk sense into him, or that he would go away. Eventually, the good people of Europe (at least those that had not been conquered by the Germans) had to fight the nazis. Americans, most of them descendents of refugees from European foolishness, wanted no part of this latest chapter. But the Japanese and Pearl Harbor intervened, and there we were. After that, Europeans had to deal with another of their inventions, communism. This one had also started off in a promising fashion, but had eventually descended into mass murder and tyranny. Still, many Europeans remained fans, at least from a distance, and defended it until communism collapsed in a pile of contradictions and dead ideas. Europeans have a thing about tyranny. While not wanting it for themselves, they are more willing than most to tolerate it for others. Thus the disagreement over going after Saddam. Many Europeans believe that taking down Saddam was just wrong, and continued American peacekeeping in Iraq just compounds the error. Europeans had made their peace, and many business deals, with Saddam. And the Americans went in and screwed it all up. Europeans have been screwing things up far longer than Americans, and consider themselves experts. They are unhappy that the Americans do not follow the lead of Europe in these matters. Moreover, Europeans cannot accept that they could be wrong, despite any evidence to the contrary. This is a major component of European cultural superiority.

And, lastly, we have the major differences between the media version of what?s going on, and the military one. The media are looking for newsworthy events (bad news preferred, good news does not sell, and news is a business). The military sees it as a process, a campaign, a series of battles that will lead to a desired conclusion. The event driven media have a hard time comprehending this process stuff, but it doesn?t really matter to them, since the media lives from headline to headline. For the military, the campaign in Iraq has been a success. The enemy, the Sunni Arabs, have been determined and resourceful. But the American strategy of holding the Sunni Arabs at bay, while the Kurds and Shia Arabs built a security force capable of dealing with the Sunni Arab terrorists, has worked. But that?s good news, and thus not news. But every terrorist attack by Sunni Arabs is news, and gets reported with intensity and enthusiasm.

But in the end, process usually wins. News events are often turned into obstacles. Journalists understand that their audience generally has no memory for past reporting that was inaccurate. What is of the moment takes precedence in peoples minds. Politicians play the same game, rewriting history freely, secure in the knowledge that their followers will go along with the revisions, and their opponents will have to play the news event game to score any points with the undecided. Human nature being what it is, the majority of the population pays little attention to the buzz of news, unless, like an outstanding TV or radio commercial, some journalist comes up with an event that registers big time. This changes perceptions, for a while at least, and often creates an artificial reality in the minds of many. This time, it isn?t quite working that way. The troops can email back their experiences promptly, and this causes a disconnect in many people, between what they see in the news, and what they are hearing from people who are in the middle of it all. How all this will play out is as yet unknown, which is what makes it so interesting. There?s more going on in Iraq than a war. [/i]

Remember this quote: First, there is definitely a terrorism problem. Not an insurgency, not a guerilla war, not a resistance. That is the ground truth in Iraq.

If you want a different sort of analysis of the media coverage of the GWOT, just scroll through this blog, put together by University of North Carolina media professor Cori Dauber:

[quote]sjoconn wrote:

Maybe I am reading people wrong, but if you’ll allow for me to paraphrase a few threads I will illustrate how I get this opinion.
Threads that read (paraphrased):
“American soldiers randomly kill civilians”
“American soldiers haphazardly torture innocent people”
“American Soldiers commit war crimes by using WP”
I may be reading to much into it…but judging by a few of the others who responded, Im not the only one.

I dont expect to change anyones opinion on the war effort. And I know that no one here will change my opinion. Like I said, I just thought that with all the negitive post ( a new one every time I turn around) maybe we needed a little balance. I honestly think that many people are completely unaware that anything positive is being done.
[/quote]

This is a tough one, so let’s start with Vietnam. When Vietnam veterans were pissed off at Kerry for having said there were atrocites, I really didn’t understand why. It seems soldiers felt that if it was said atrocities were committed, they were being blamed for something. Well, there were atrocities. My mother was from the Soviet Union, and had the opportunity to meet many North Vietnamese girls. I won’t even get into what they said happened to them, the scars on their bodies said enough. Atrocities did happen.

That doesn’t mean Vietnam veterans are bad people. It means some did not handle the stress of being in what was basically hell very well. It means the administration didn’t do a good job keeping things in check, and very bad decisions were made (eg, let’s use napalm! that won’t mutilate any innocent civilians).

Currently in Iraq, there are atrocities. Some soldiers aren’t handling the stress very well, and the administration needs to do more to prevent this. Then again, as prof x said recently, it’s very hard to take kids and teach them to kill without a second thought without making them monsters who enjoy killing.

My point is this: bad things are happening. More specifically, american soldiers are doing bad things. SOME american soldiers are doing bad things. I think it’s very unfortunate that this isn’t made clear every single time people speak about what’s going on over there. I think it’s tragic that stories like yours aren’t told, and I totally understand your frustration. But you have to understand just because YOU are a good guy, and all YOU want to do is help people doesn’t mean every US soldier is the same. And just because your unit hasn’t done any terrible things doesn’t mean no one has.

[quote]Aleksandr wrote:
sjoconn wrote:

Maybe I am reading people wrong, but if you’ll allow for me to paraphrase a few threads I will illustrate how I get this opinion.
Threads that read (paraphrased):
“American soldiers randomly kill civilians”
“American soldiers haphazardly torture innocent people”
“American Soldiers commit war crimes by using WP”
I may be reading to much into it…but judging by a few of the others who responded, Im not the only one.

I dont expect to change anyones opinion on the war effort. And I know that no one here will change my opinion. Like I said, I just thought that with all the negitive post ( a new one every time I turn around) maybe we needed a little balance. I honestly think that many people are completely unaware that anything positive is being done.

This is a tough one, so let’s start with Vietnam. When Vietnam veterans were pissed off at Kerry for having said there were atrocites, I really didn’t understand why. It seems soldiers felt that if it was said atrocities were committed, they were being blamed for something. Well, there were atrocities. My mother was from the Soviet Union, and had the opportunity to meet many North Vietnamese girls. I won’t even get into what they said happened to them, the scars on their bodies said enough. Atrocities did happen.

That doesn’t mean Vietnam veterans are bad people. It means some did not handle the stress of being in what was basically hell very well. It means the administration didn’t do a good job keeping things in check, and very bad decisions were made (eg, let’s use napalm! that won’t mutilate any innocent civilians).

Currently in Iraq, there are atrocities. Some soldiers aren’t handling the stress very well, and the administration needs to do more to prevent this. Then again, as prof x said recently, it’s very hard to take kids and teach them to kill without a second thought without making them monsters who enjoy killing.

My point is this: bad things are happening. More specifically, american soldiers are doing bad things. SOME american soldiers are doing bad things. I think it’s very unfortunate that this isn’t made clear every single time people speak about what’s going on over there. I think it’s tragic that stories like yours aren’t told, and I totally understand your frustration. But you have to understand just because YOU are a good guy, and all YOU want to do is help people doesn’t mean every US soldier is the same. And just because your unit hasn’t done any terrible things doesn’t mean no one has.[/quote]

Just remember, speaking against the war is “REPREHENSIBLE”. No, there’s no propaganda here.

[quote]sjoconn wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
What is the point of this post? That there are atrocities? Obviously. And it’s tragic. It says nothing either way about whether Americans are or are not doing the right things.

Sorry. I guess the point of my post was that while everyone is posting about the autrocities, no one mentioned one sigle good thing.

So, with a bit of rather poor sarcasm, I decided to show that we are doing good things as well.

[/quote]

Gotcha. I agree that there’s not enough focus of the good that’s being done.

Well-said, Aleksander

[quote]vroom wrote:
Hey, I just looked up the phrase “willy-nilly”.

…[/quote]

You had to look it up?

Here is Rummy telling people that they should not be questioning anything. I can’t believe people don’t see this. I can’t believe how much he is talking out of both sides of his mouth.

He knows he can’t say you shouldn’t be able to debate it, but you can tell that is the impression he wants to leave.

He is suggesting that free debate should actually be limited, in a subtle way, by making it a moral imperative to avoid certain topics or statements!
[i]
Arguments over pulling out troops immediately, he added, may lead Americans serving in Iraq to question “whether what they’re doing makes sense.”

“We have to all have the willingness to have a free debate, but we also all have to have the willingness to understand what the effects of our words are,” Rumsfeld said on ABC’s “This Week.”[/i]

And no, of course he isn’t coming out and saying that people can’t speak their mind, that isn’t going to happen. This is as close as he can get. Dick of course is a bit tougher in his words, calling people reprehensible for disagreeing with the president and suggesting alternatives the administration doesn’t like.

Zap, did you have something to say or were you just tossing in cheap shot? Boo hoo.

Bad bye.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I think you are among many who actually do believe that anyone who speaks against the war is either also against the troops or simply unpatriotic. [/quote]

You would be wrong.
Ive already stated that I dont expect to change your mind and that you wont change mine. Speak out about the war and the administration all you want. Last time I checked there was a piece of paper saying you were allowed to do that. Im pretty sure I took an oath to serve and protect it.
I have family and friends that dont agree with the administration. They are still my family and friends, just as patriotic as the next. Why do you think I would view you any different?

Ive also already said that maybe I was reading into some of the post too much. But some of the post (look at the Iraq War thread) are there only to show the troops in a bad light. Some post werent started to inform or discuss, but simply for reaction. Im sorry, but this thread was my reaction.

Ive also already apologized for the way I started this thread off. Unfortunately I gave into my frustration. While apparently if some members post with passion or anger it is ok, but if I do its a sin. I will try harder next time.

Ive also already explained that my purpose for starting this thread was to show that there is some good coming out of this. Every other thread about the war is about something terrible. God forbid we get to see that some kid will live, or refugees are returning home, or that food is being provided to those in need. Its better to read about torture and death.

So, one final time. I am sorry that I attempted to show that there are 2 sides. Your right, I am wrong.

SJO,

I’m hoping most people are more than willing to admit there are two sides to the issue! I also think virtually everyone thinks very favorably upon the soldiers in Iraq.

Perhaps the fact you started the thread with an attack on those that are speaking out took away from your point?

You know, if you instead said something like, the other side – good things we are able to accomplish in Iraq. I think things would have went in a different direction.

I am very hopeful that the Iraqi’s will be able to hold onto a reasonable government of their own, and that they will look back upon the US as liberating friends, giving them back their country, their land and their future.

However, there are evil people over there and the silly administration is wandering around in a daze trying to get their heads out of their asses and figure out how to do things right. While they wander around like clueless imbeciles, Americans are dying.

It’s frustrating… but it isn’t the fualt of the soldiers. Certainly not in my mind.

I hope that seems reasonable… except for the part about the administration anyway. :wink:

[quote]sjoconn wrote:

While apparently if some members post with passion or anger it is ok, but if I do its a sin. I will try harder next time.

[/quote]

I totally understand your anger, however, it would’ve been nice if your message was conveyed in a way that does not offend people whose opinion you are trying to change.

[quote]sjoconn wrote:
God forbid we get to see that some kid will live, or refugees are returning home, or that food is being provided to those in need. Its better to read about torture and death.
[/quote]

It is great that you and your unit are working your asses off to help those people.

However, a small minority of other units and individual soldiers are killing innocent people (by accident)and in some cases, there has been some form of torture. I also do not agree with the way US entered the war and your lack of plans in chaotic Iraq.

This, by no means, prove that I have a problem with American soldiers; in fact, I am appalled at how many lifes are lost due to various mistakes of the administration.

I am not American but I salute you for serving your country and wish you’re save and sound in a foreign country.

Fahd

[quote]sjoconn wrote:
Professor X wrote:

I think you are among many who actually do believe that anyone who speaks against the war is either also against the troops or simply unpatriotic.

You would be wrong.
Ive already stated that I dont expect to change your mind and that you wont change mine. Speak out about the war and the administration all you want. Last time I checked there was a piece of paper saying you were allowed to do that. Im pretty sure I took an oath to serve and protect it.
I have family and friends that dont agree with the administration. They are still my family and friends, just as patriotic as the next. Why do you think I would view you any different?

Ive also already said that maybe I was reading into some of the post too much. But some of the post (look at the Iraq War thread) are there only to show the troops in a bad light. Some post werent started to inform or discuss, but simply for reaction. Im sorry, but this thread was my reaction.

Ive also already apologized for the way I started this thread off. Unfortunately I gave into my frustration. While apparently if some members post with passion or anger it is ok, but if I do its a sin. I will try harder next time.

Ive also already explained that my purpose for starting this thread was to show that there is some good coming out of this. Every other thread about the war is about something terrible. God forbid we get to see that some kid will live, or refugees are returning home, or that food is being provided to those in need. Its better to read about torture and death.

So, one final time. I am sorry that I attempted to show that there are 2 sides. Your right, I am wrong. [/quote]

You have nothing to apologize for. U da man, post all the pictures you want, and thank you for your service.

I love these deep civilized political discussions and what?s a civilized discussion without a few FUs and insults thrown about. I?m glad that we all don?t agree on this matter. As a veteran I want our government to be accountable and that is accomplished by questioning out leaders motives and our intelligence. We are committed in the Middle East. Now what do we do? Regardless of how much bitching goes on back here in the states, there are still soldiers on the ground over there. I say drop the partisan politics, stop worrying about your party keeping or taking control and find a way to accomplish the task at hand.
By the way, torture is a poor way to get intelligence. Eventually the person will say anything to get it to stop.

Thanks to all those who serve.

Me Solomon Grundy

This article from Max Boot in the LA Times also looks at the disconnect between the troops outlook on Iraq (positive) vs. the media outlook (negative):

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-boot23nov23,0,1306469.column?coll=la-news-comment-opinions

EXCERPT:

A large majority of the American public is convinced that the liberation of Iraq was a mistake, while a smaller but growing number thinks that we are losing and that we need to pull out soon. Those sentiments are echoed by finger-in-the-wind politicians, including many ? such as John Kerry, Harry Reid, John Edwards, John Murtha and Bill Clinton ? who supported the invasion.

Yet in a survey last month from the U.S.-based International Republican Institute, 47% of Iraqis polled said their country was headed in the right direction, as opposed to 37% who said they thought that it was going in the wrong direction. And 56% thought things would be better in six months. Only 16% thought they would be worse.

American soldiers are also much more optimistic than American civilians. The Pew Research Center and the Council on Foreign Relations just released a survey of American elites that found that 64% of military officers are confident that we will succeed in establishing a stable democracy in Iraq. The comparable figures for journalists and academics are 33% and 27%, respectively. Even more impressive than the Pew poll is the evidence of how our service members are voting with their feet. Although both the Army and the Marine Corps are having trouble attracting fresh recruits ? no surprise, given the state of public opinion regarding Iraq ? reenlistment rates continue to exceed expectations. Veterans are expressing their confidence in the war effort by signing up to continue fighting.