So I’m reading Joe Frazier’s new book last night at Barnes and Nobles, and in it he mentions quite a few times that he doesn’t think weightlifting should be done at all- just pushups, situps, and dips. He goes on to say that weightlifting for is bad for boxers because it shortens the muscles (don’t know where the fuck he got that from) and makes you bulky and slow.
Now, I’m no boxer, but I like reading about it, and it really dissapoints me that these guys reinforce these old myths, especially a guy that I like as much as I like Frazier.
Somewhere, a 13 year kid is picking up that book and reading it, then thinking that his muscles will get shorter, bulkier, and he’ll be somehow more unathletic if he weightlifts.
Never wonder where the sterotypes come from, I guess.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
So I’m reading Joe Frazier’s new book last night at Barnes and Nobles, and in it he mentions quite a few times that he doesn’t think weightlifting should be done at all- just pushups, situps, and dips. He goes on to say that weightlifting for is bad for boxers because it shortens the muscles (don’t know where the fuck he got that from) and makes you bulky and slow.
Now, I’m no boxer, but I like reading about it, and it really dissapoints me that these guys reinforce these old myths, especially a guy that I like as much as I like Frazier.
Somewhere, a 13 year kid is picking up that book and reading it, then thinking that his muscles will get shorter, bulkier, and he’ll be somehow more unathletic if he weightlifts.
Never wonder where the sterotypes come from, I guess.
Just wanted to vent, fellas.[/quote]
Watch any MMA? Those guys are always talking about or actually shown doing resistance training of all forms. Hell, Lidell’s supplement commercial shows him pulling a truck.
I think Frazier’s mentality is very much a generational thing at this point, take solace in the fact that it’ll die soon.
BTW- I don’t know what 13 yr. olds you spend time around, but I’m betting Joe Frazier’s autobiography isn’t at the top of their summer reading list.
Yea, it’s pretty fucked up that so many people still believe that shit.
I remember as a kid, my neighbor who was around age 13 decided to take up boxing. He goes to the gym then later talks to the owner about weight lifting. The guy tells him to avoid it at all costs.
The reason?
Weight training prevents you from extending your arm all the way. The guy said that weight trainers have a bend at the elbow that non-weight trainers don’t have.
It’s a just a thing past down from trainer to trainer from the olden days. Those bodyweight exercises are a form of resistance training in themselves, just the load is lighter and they limit progress as opposed to what could be done with weights. Some of the old crusties still cling to the “weights are bad stuff” but it is slowly dying out.
One just has to look at recent champions who do weight training like Holyfield, Mayweather Jr, Adamek, the Klitschko’s to name a few. Bernard Hopkins packed on 15 pounds of muscle by starting weight lifting and came about faster and stronger than ever at age 41 and destroyed Tarver who was highly ranked on every P4P list. I doubt there are very many top guys out there who don’t do some sort of resistance training anymore.
I only boxed for a couple years so I’m no boxing expert or anything. But my 1st boxing coach back when I was 15 said the same thing. He told me to quit training because it would just make me slow and bulky. I think this was the prevailing attitude back in the day (my coach was in his 60’s). I read the same thing in some old training books as well. Crazy shit.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
It’s a just a thing past down from trainer to trainer from the olden days. Those bodyweight exercises are a form of resistance training in themselves, just the load is lighter and they limit progress as opposed to what could be done with weights. Some of the old crusties still cling to the “weights are bad stuff” but it is slowly dying out.
One just has to look at recent champions who do weight training like Holyfield, Mayweather Jr, Adamek, the Klitschko’s to name a few. Bernard Hopkins packed on 15 pounds of muscle by starting weight lifting and came about faster and stronger than ever at age 41 and destroyed Tarver who was highly ranked on every P4P list. I doubt there are very many top guys out there who don’t do some sort of resistance training anymore.
[/quote]
Boxing is an insular culture with a number of traditions and training methods that have changed relatively little in the last fifty (and maybe even the last hundred!) years. Even today, many boxing coaches cling to the 50s-era conventional wisdom that weightlifting will make you slower and more injury-prone without improving your athletic performance.
All that said, punching power is still very little understood and may not have as much as you think to do with muscle mass; yes, Foreman was a beast and a devastating puncher, but plenty of the all-time big hitters (Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Tommy Hearns) were comparatively small and even what we might consider skinny. Given that circumstance, it might not be so outlandish for coaches to warn their athletes against an activity (weightlifting) that might force them to move up in weight class without giving them a comensurate bump in power.
I seem to remember Smokin’ Joe getting tired in the later rounds of some fights. Maybe Ali couldn’t have taken those punches with the proper weight training.
DONDIESEL- I actually did research on Ali- he never used weights either, ever. I was surprised, because he looked like he did.
Lucasa- I agree that it is a generational thing, but this wasn’t Frazier’s autobiography. It’s a book he put out last year as an intro book to how to box- technique, exercise, etc. because I’m trying to integrate some of that into my workouts to increase my endurance.
A 13 year old wouldn’t read his bio, but they might pickup a book that says, “These are the basics of boxing”, you know?
It is funny how they all come up with these ridiculous reasons, such as “shortening the muscles” or “Not extending the arm” as Carter said. I just can’t get over it.
I know boxing is a sport loaded with tradition, and I agree that powerful punchers like Dempsey and Marciano just had something in them that let them hit like that (I’ve heard many say, “You can’t teach power”).
I’ll just always wonder how much harder Dempsey or Rocky or Foreman could have hit if they were on an O-lifting program or something.
i’d think it could be a tricky situation… like changing a golf swing. or how lance armstrong converted his spin from a relatively low rpm to a much higher cadence. alot of other pros , jan ullrich among them, tried to copy lance and adopt a higher cadence but couldn’t make the switch.
we’re talking about devoting over a year to learn how to spin faster with the same power output but they still couldn’t make the switch and even get the SAME power let alone improved power like lance did.
lance changed his body type and his style along with it but he had a few years to burn after cancer and really nothing to lose. holyfield seemed to be able to do the same thing and figured a way to make it all work.
I have read that, when you weight train, your body slows down just before full-extension, to avoid muscle tears in the opposing muscle group. This may be one reason why football players do tire flips and such. When you throw (as opposed to lift), your body doesn’t react in the same way. It perceives during a lift that you will lower the weight (under control). A throw, like in a punch or with a baseball, is not a circuit-control situation (which is one reason pitchers blow out their shoulders).
I’m no scientist, that is merely what I’ve read. Heck, maybe George Foreman wrote it.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I have read that, when you weight train, your body slows down just before full-extension, to avoid muscle tears in the opposing muscle group. This may be one reason why football players do tire flips and such. When you throw (as opposed to lift), your body doesn’t react in the same way. It perceives during a lift that you will lower the weight (under control). A throw, like in a punch or with a baseball, is not a circuit-control situation (which is one reason pitchers blow out their shoulders).
I’m no scientist, that is merely what I’ve read. Heck, maybe George Foreman wrote it. ;)[/quote]
I was actually just reading Ross Enamaits new book and he brought up this point. That’s why all of the dynamic effort movements he utilizes are lifts without a deceleration phase, like shot putting a dumbell or plyo push ups.
I was actually just reading Ross Enamaits new book and he brought up this point. That’s why all of the dynamic effort movements he utilizes are lifts without a deceleration phase, like shot putting a dumbell or plyo push ups.
[/quote]
This is another thing I wanted to get into. I like Ross Enamait, and he gives some great tips on strength and conditioning.
However, a lot of people seem to rip him apart for never having any success in the ring himself, and never having trained anyone worth fighting. I don’t know how true this is, any thoughts?
I think this cuts to the heart of potential problem you can sometimes run into when you seek training guidance from very gifted athletes. It seems like very often these guys have not so much got what they got BECAUSE of their training- they got what they got IN SPITE of their training.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
However, a lot of people seem to rip him apart for never having any success in the ring himself, and never having trained anyone worth fighting. I don’t know how true this is, any thoughts?[/quote]
He did have problems with repeatedly breaking his hand (which he attributes to lack of properly training it), that may have a little to do with his lack of personal success in the ring.
[quote]Pinto wrote:
I think this cuts to the heart of potential problem you can sometimes run into when you seek training guidance from very gifted athletes. It seems like very often these guys have not so much got what they got BECAUSE of their training- they got what they got IN SPITE of their training. [/quote]
Yarn. I’ve heard that tired statement repeated here about a thousand times. It’s usually by coaches trying to market themselves. “If only those pro athletes had used my programs, they would have been truly great.”
Think about how silly it sounds. If only George Foreman had lifted, boy, he really would have had a powerful punch. It’s a rather silly thing to say.
For elite level boxers, weight training should be used primarily for injury prevention. Boxing does shorten the muscles, because the head is in a forward position - much like sitting at a desk all day shortens the muscles. So instead of having a boxer do a lot of bench presses, rows and other exercises should be used. But, again, it’s not necessarily because lifting will give the boxer a more powerful punch.
In any event, the idea that if only poor George had been trained by a forumite or Internet guru, he would really have been great, is presumptuous.
If you forumites or the Internet gurus have so many secretes about training fighters, where the fuck are the champion boxers you’ve trained? If you were so great, wouldn’t these champions have hired you? After all, it’s in their every interest to improve their punching power.
A lot of what I read here is sour grapes by people who have never trained a champion.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
This is another thing I wanted to get into. I like Ross Enamait, and he gives some great tips on strength and conditioning.
However, a lot of people seem to rip him apart for never having any success in the ring himself, and never having trained anyone worth fighting. I don’t know how true this is, any thoughts?[/quote]
I don’t know Mr. Enamait, but if he hasn’t trained any champions, I would have to wonder how valuable his advice would be.
It’s easy to write a program that looks good in theory. But that program might not work well in practice. If his programs gave results, it would follow that he would create champsions. If he hasn’t created champions, I would question the real-life value of his programs.
One thing interesting: It’s the guys here who have never boxed or fought at a high level who proclaim that if only fighters lifted, they’d be so much better. Once you start boxing or fighting regularly, you’ll start to see what works. As someone who used to post to this forum (and who fights MMA and trains with UFC fighters) said (paraphrase): “I used to powerlift, but the longer I trained MMA, the more value I saw in the programs fighters use and which are mocked on this site.”
