Anyone who thinks that Christianity preaches killing non-believers is totally ignorant.Read the NEW TESTAMENT.I challenge any of the dummys who equate Christianity with islam to find ONE verse in the NEW TESTAMENT that advocates violence under any circumstance.The OLD TESTAMENT,which is the history of the nation of Israel and their relationship with their GOD does have a lot of war stories in it.Every nations history has war in it.No where in the OLD TESTAMENT does it condone violence against non-believers for religious reasons.I’ve read enough of the koran to be truly sickened by it.Infidels are not considered human…their lives mean nothing.The whole history of islam has been conquer and convert.Spread by the sword.Convert or die.For your own sake people,educate yourselves to the facts before posting nonsense.
How pissed off am I??? While there havent been any cases of anthrax in australia (yet) just plenty of hoaxes, some(?) muslims here have taken it upon themselves to start burning down christian churches, fire bomb cars in jewish areas and write pro-bin laden graffiti on walls, there was even a case in sydney a few weeks ago where a number of young australian girls were raped by a gang of muslim guys who during the act yelled at them they deserved it because they were australian, then one had the nerve to use as his defence in court, because of his culture (muslim) he didnt realise raping a woman was wrong. What the fxxk is that!? I’m not a religious guy but these bastards come to our countries, benefit from our “christian/western” society yet still support the fxxkers in afghanistan and turn against their new “homes” when its time to choose sides!! If Islam is so good why dont they stay there, we certainly dont want them here!
Anyway I hope you guys in the US realise that you have the full support of most of australia, and our armed forces are being sent in a week or so to support your own. Lets just hope that it doesnt take too long or cost too many lives to bring all these terorists to justice / death.
“for religious reasons…” but you can kill your enemy and after you make the female captives waite outside for 1 or 2 weeks (depending on the translation) you can MAKE them be your wife and rape them. ok NO religious reasons but THINK!!! look I am not anti or pro anything, I don’t believe in god, though I wish I did, my point was just about hate within religion, you may find reasons to justify or your own ways to interpret what “your” book says but WHAT if you grew up in THEIR world? what if that is what you are taught from age 1? anyway I don’t think you will undestand what I mean, but maybe some will. peace
Hmmm. Interesting. Blutovich advocates killing Muslims because it is such a barbaric religion and Christianity is so pure and good. Of course, the surest way to prove the wisdom of turning the other cheek like Jesus preached would be to carpet bomb the enemy. Also, he dismisses the violence in the Old Testament as if it is not a valid point of discussion in Christianity. How convenient.
He didn’t advocate killing the enemy. He advocated not underestimating their hatred or fooling ourselves about their religion.
The old testament is a history of the Jewish people. The lessons in it are applicable to Christianity, but Christians do not advocate killing non-Christians. Christians are not Hebrews wandering in the desert being instructed by God to conquer other nations.
The bottom line is Christianity doesn’t advocate killing non Christians. Islam does. All the moral relativism in the world can’t change facts.
Thank you Bri…I wonder if any others can read.Nowhere in my posts did I advocate genocide of moslems…that would bring us to their level.What I do advocate is an intense war(CRUSADE)against the military branches of moslem countrys that attack us or our allies.I also think that now is the time for the US to use its apparently limitless foreign aid fund to help CHRISTIAN nations instead of giving it to ingrate mohamed worshipping dogs.We picked the wrong sides in the Serb-Kosovo Albanians(KLA=moslem terrorist bin laden ally)and in the Russia-Afghani wars.One of these mistakes came back to bite us in the ass years later,don’t be suprised when the other one does.And if any more terrorist attacks occur on US soil,I advocate interment and deportation of all foreign born moslems…no,not nice…but nice doesn’t win wars.
And I’m serious BOYCOTT moslem owned businesses.You don’t know if they send the profits home to be used against us one day.Also I’m not taking the risk of some sneaky Paki devil sprinkling anthrax on my donuts.
say what you want but PLEASE read your book and don’t believe what you learned in sunday school “but chistians do not advocate killing non-christians” well maybe, depends on who, some do (KKK? they ARE christians) but some don’t BUT READ YOUR BOOK!!! are you proud of how you don’t follow what your book says?? READ IT!!! I have, from cover to cover (which is why I don’t believe in god), have you??? (NO)
I am NOT going to believe Blutovich or Bri unless they show me one verse from the Koran that advocates killing people of other religions. Don’t try to take anything out of context; I have a Muslim friend (believe it or not, Blut and Bri, he has not killed me even though I am a Christian) who has a Koran and I will check up on the verses that you are going to give me. And you are going to give me…you two have obviously both read and are very informed about the Koran.
This conversation is getting stupid. The KKK are Christians and believe in killing so there! REally? The KKK may consider themselves Christians, but they aren’t getting their marching orders from the Bible. Yes, I have read it. And no, I don’t consider myself a Christian. That’s not the point. The Christian on the street isn’t under the impression that he should kill non-Christians, that’s the point. Do the KKK represent all Christians? No. Do they say they get their ideas from the Bible? No.
Last night I saw an interview with a Taliban soldier captured by the Northern Alliance. The US reporter asked him “why would you want to kill people who have nothing whatsoever to do with you?” The answer: “because you are unbelievers and that’s what it says in our holy books”. Another question “would you strap yourself with explosives and blow up a nursery school with US children in it?” The taliban thought for a minute and said “if our holy men call for a war on the US then yes”. Please explain to him that he’s wrong and that his religion is no more violent than any other. He seems confused.
As to the t-teen who wants to know why her friend hasn’t killed her. Borrow the Koran and ask your friend to show you the parts where it talks about infidels. Not all people take every part of their religion that seriously. I’ve had friends who’ve said “so basically you’re telling me I’m going to hell.” Well yes, from what Jesus says, that is the case. But I didn’t go around telling my non-Christian friends they were going to hell back when I went to church. But technically they were if you believe the New Testament and what Jesus said. Not that he said to kill them though.
I understand what you all are basically saying. All religions are equivalent, so to say the Koran advocates killing non-muslims then the Bible must advocate killing non-Christians. If the bible doesn’t then it could be said it’s a less violent religion. But that’s not politically correct and is indeed, RACIST. Therefore it simply can’t be. People in S. America had religion ceremonies where they had human sacrifices. Does that mean Christianity had human sacrifices too? Are all religions morally equivalent to each other? Is that what they teach you in politically correct class?
I don’t happen to have a Koran in front of me. But I found a few verses off the net. So here you go t-teen.
O Beleivers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are
but one another’s friends. If any one of you takes them for his
friends, he surely is one of them! 5:56
And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods
with God wherever you shall find them; and seize them, besiege them,
and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert,
and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their
way. 9:5
Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as
believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God
and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the
truth. 9:29
Believers! wage war against such of the infidels as are your neighbors, and let them find you rigorous. 9:124
Be not you helpful to the unbelievers. 28:86
Well the part about killing people of other religions…(in “9:5”) it does give you a chance to “convert”. So there you go t-teen. If your friend ever tries to kill you just offer to convert.
So given that you’ve read the whole Bible (to the person who assumed I haven’t) find me similar verses that Jesus said concerning non-believers. “I will make you fishers of men” is not the same as “kill others who believe in other religions” is it?
Bri, I’m glad that you responded. However, the Koran is a holy book of books like the Bible. If you asked me to give you a reference to a verse in the Bible, I would not give you two numbers separated with a colon (ex. 3:16). Instead, I would give you the name of the book and then two numbers separated with a colon (ex. John 3:16). I am asking you to do the same.
I’m not going to do your homework for you, sorry. What did I make up all those quotes? I’m happy that your friend won’t kill you, I guess, but that’s irrelevent to the issue at hand: namely, do Moslems have a religiously based hatred and propensity towards violence toward “infidels”.
Let’s compare countries. In the U.S. if you say anything that could hurt a Moslem’s feelings, like quote the parts of the Koran where it talks about killing infidels, then you’re a jerk. In Saudi Arabia, if you celebrate Christianity, you can be beheaded. So you see the Moslem countries are very progressive and tolerant. In Nigeria a girl was recently senteced to be stoned to death. Her crime? Pre-marital sex. Her punishment was dictated by the “Sharia”, which is some kind of Muslim holy book relating to criminal offenses. I think we need to be wary of the Moslem faith. That’s my point. It’s not at all peaceful or progressive or inclusive. We also need to be wary of fools spouting such nonsense.
The problem with Islam results, in my opinion, its advocacy of retribution. I do have a copy of the Q’uran, and I cannot seem to find clear cut examples where it encourages the unprovoked killing of infidels. But there are troubling verses nevertheless. For example, in The Cow 2:190, it says, “Fight for the sake of God those that fight against you but do not attack them first. God does not love the aggressors.” The very next verse reads, “Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you. Idolatry is worse than carnage. But do not fight them within the precincts of the Holy Mosque unless they attack you there; if they attack you put them to the sword. Thus shall the unbelievers be rewarded: but if they desist, God is forgiving and merciful.” The issue of Christians and Jews appear to be somewhat complicated because the Q’uran acknowledges them as a fellow believer of God. “The Cow” 2:113 says “The Jews say the Christians are misguided, and the Christians say it is the Jews who are misguided. Yet they both read the Scriptures.” The entire books is laced with references to violence, but it always ends with “God is all forgiving and merciful,” “God is all knowing and powerful” or “God does not love harsh words.” Even if the Q’uran does not advocate a first strike aggression, it does mandate revenge. “The Night Journey” says in 17:28, " If a man is slain unjustly, his heir shall be entitled to satisfaction." Then it goes on to warn, “But let him not carry his vengeance too far, for his victim will in turn be assisted and avenged.” That last phrase pretty much sums up the source of violence in the Muslim world. Leaving men up to the task of deciding just revenge and what constitues unjust killing is problematic. Ever hear of the Hatfields and the McCoys?
Bri, I never asked you to do my homework for me. I did ask you to show me your homework. And I am not suggesting you are making the verses up. I do question, however, the source of those verses (ex. website instead of Koran). And the fact that the references you listed do not name the book where you can check up on the numbers adds to my questioning. Hyok, I take your words with sincerity because it is apparent you have done your homework. Good job.
I forgot to mention that my friend lent me his Koran this morning. There are 114 books in the Koran and the copy in my hand contains 424 pages. Some of the books are longer than 20 pages. Some of the books are no longer than a quarter of a page. As I was perusing the table of contents about an hour ago, a book called “The Unbelievers” caught my attention. I quickly turned to it and found that the book has only six verses.
It reads: 1) Say: O unbelievers! 2) I do not serve that which you serve, 3) Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve: 4) Nor am I going to serve that which you serve, 5) Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve: 6) You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.
End of the book of “The Unbelievers”. But Bri, I must tell you, I’m going to read it again…I must have missed the part about the killing of infidels.
Well you need to tell the Taliban (Taliban is the name of a type of school where they sit around memorizing the Koran for years), that he has it all wrong and that you, who have read a total of 6 verses of the Koran, have it all figured out. The Koran doesn’t say anything about killing infidels. I wonder where they got that idea from.
Bri, you cannot verbally attack a religion when the only information you have is that teachers from the Taliban (the school) claim that the Koran orders Muslims to kill nonbelievers. You spoke as if you studied the Koran yourself. And speaking of studying the Koran, everyone knows that the teachers of the Taliban school teach their own interpretation of the Koran. It is a perverted interpretation. Here is a fact: The Taliban (the regime) are the result of students brainwashed by fanatical Muslim teachers in Taliban schools in Pakistan. Here is another fact: Iran is supplying weapons to the Northern Alliance (anti-Taliban fighters in northern Afghanistan) because they believe the Taliban gives a bad name to Islam. Do you not believe that Iran has religious teachers who sit down and study the Koran year after year? The bottomline: Show me a verse in the Koran that preaches the killing of non-believers. Other than that, Bri, you have no right nor reason to repeat your theory as a fact. And until you show me a verse to prove your legitimacy, everything you say is pointless and meaningless.
Well I think things I’ve seen, like the events of 9/11 and the dancing in the streets afterward, things I’ve read, like the internet quotes I showed you, and similar quotes I’ve heard people read on TV (Bill Maher, among others), lead me to believe Islam is a violent religion. I don’t have a Koran in front of me and I couldn’t care less about trying to convince you of anything. Your logic is the following “I have a Muslim friend who hasn’t killed me, therefore Islam is not a violent religion”. My evidence is circumstantial, yours is anecdotal. A poll taken in Pakistan was released and 1/4 of Pakistanis believe the 9/11 hijacking and murders were acceptable according to the laws of Islam. So they must be kind of confused too. You need to tell them about your friend! The one who hasn’t killed you yet! That’ll set them straight. And don’t tell me what I can or can’t say. I have as much right to my well informed opinion as anyone, especially considering your weak arguments. The original argument was that Christianity is as violent and as prone to killing non-believers as Islam. I don’t remember any Christians mass murdering Moslems and then hearing Christians say it was done according to Biblical teachings, but that’s me.
It must have been your ignorance to lead you to believe that my logic is: “I have a Muslim friend who hasn’t killed me, therefore Islam is not a violent religion”. I only addressed the issue of my friend one time, after your writings made it seem like you viewed Muslims as a threat to your very life (and in my point of view you sound afraid). I was simply being satirical. In case you cannot recall, you stated that the Koran teaches Muslims to kill non-believers, or infidels. In case you haven’t noticed, my reason for being on this post was (and still is) to challenge you to find that verse. Simple as that. So the only thing I asked you to convince me was that you had a valid source to state that fact about the Koran. I never asked you to convince me whether Islam is good or bad. You are definitely welcome to your own opinion. But to tell everyone on the forum that the Koran teaches Muslims to kill unbelievers is not a question of opinion. It is a question of fact. And it is this fact that I have been challenging you with. Bri, not to surprise you, but the “dancing in the streets” after the attack had nothing to do with religion. Fact or fiction, right or wrong, correct or incorrect, the Palestinians believe Israel is America’s gateway to Jewish influence in the Middle East. I saw an interview with a Palestinian on TV and he said that the people in his country hate America for giving Israel the weapons that kill their family members and friends. Now, I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with the first statement. In fact, I hold it to be ridiculous. About whether or not America supplies weapons to Israel I do not know, nor am I qualified to speak on the matter. But the bottomline is that in their minds it is true, however insane or absurd. My point: The “dancing in the streets” has nothing to do with Islam, or at least only indirectly. If the information you gave out was correct (in that the wording is exact), I do not dispute that 1/4 of Pakistanis believe the 9/11 hijacking and murders are acceptable according to Islamic law. Point #1: Nearly 100% of Pakistanis are Muslim. You can reverse the situation and say that 75 out of a 100 (or 75%) Pakistanis don’t see the attacks acceptable in terms of Islamic law. Point #2: Pakistan is known for having an abundance of Islamic Extremists. In fact, as I have mentioned earlier, the Taliban are a result of the Taliban schools in Pakistan. Bri, I do not know if you were referring to me when you said that the original argument was that Christianity is violent, because I never made those arguments. In fact, I am a Christian myself. Lastly, you have every right to view Islam as a violent religion based on the things you’ve seen and heard. I have no problem with that, and I would be an idiot to have a problem with that. You have every right to say: “The other day I spoke with a group of Muslims and let me announce on the T-Mag forum that I am more certain now than ever that Islam is a violent religion.” Fair enough. But you do not have any right (IMO) to say: “Bin Laden doesn’t represent all Muslims, but to say the Muslim religion is “peaceful”, we are kidding ourselves. It talks openly about killing the infidels (that’s us) and how you’ll go to heaven right away if you die in battle against the infidel.” Because, and let me be frank, you don’t have a clue. Unless, of course, you can give me a reference to the verse which proves your point. Again, Bri, that is my challenge for you and my debate with you. Nothing else. So don’t change the subject. If you can find the verse, then you have proved your validity. If you cannot, I would advise you to reconsider writing something that others will take as a fact in the future. Now, if you cannot find the verse, then admit you are wrong (in that regard only). If you don’t want to admit, then don’t write back. But certainly don’t write back something that is irrelevant and off-topic or something that questions my intention. The topic is obvious. My intention is very obvious.