T Nation

Retaliation

Retaliation

It is very likely this little piece is going stir some people up, but so be it…

I’ll be honest, I don’t know exactly why bin Laden and a percentage of Muslims around the world hate America and her alies so much. But with what I’m about to put forward, it really doesn’t matter. The way I see it, bin Laden decided to play God, to take the lives of innocents to further his cause. The resulting chain reaction has seen America and various other nations launch counter-terrorism strikes centered on Afghanistan (for obvious reasons), and Muslims around the world rising up in protest and calling a Jihad, as they feel America simply wants to rid the world of everything Islamic.

Well, if the Muslims are going to be so short-sighted (I expect they’re just looking for an excuse to wage war against the West), and want to call a Jihad, then be my guest. Let the Muslims fight the military might of the West. I just hope for their sakes that their God is smiling on them when they start this war, or better yet, I hope their God is laughing his @rse off. Personally, I feel that the world needs less of these violent and unthinking people who feel mindless slaughter is the key to solving their problems.

As for bin Laden… Well if it comes to a Jihad and he still continues his terror campaign, then I think a little of his own medicine is in order. It is doubtful that this concept would be backed by any Western governments, but I propose that the people of the Western world form their own underground terrorist/anti-terorrist organisation.

Now don’t discount this straight away, just listen…

If bin Laden's got a grudge and decides to show it by killing my friends and fellow Westerners, and innocents at that, then perhaps it's time we gave him a first hand experience of just what these tactics are like. An eye for an eye. It wouldn't be funded by the governments or the military, it would be funded by the people. Who in the civilised Western world (and many other nations for that matter) wouldn't give a little to aid in these specific type of counter terrorism operations. The people would fund it and the people would fund it well.

bin Laden now thinks sending Anthrax around the planet is effective - wait until we taint the water supplies of HIS people with hideous, man-made viral concoctions - wait until we taint the herds of livestock of HIS people with diseases that make mad-cow/foot-and-mouth look like the common cold - wait until the crops of HIS people are laced with lethal poisons that’re only discovered once the crop has been widely distributed and its effects seen - wait until wthe few computer systems HIS people have are hacked into and rendered useless - wait until various, vital infrastructure systems of HIS people are sabotaged… and it goes on and on. Can he compete - yes. To a degree, but he will not win.

And all those that declare a Jihad are also targets. These efforts would not be aimed solely at bin Laden. Let HIS people feel the impact that HIS tactics can impart on a nation. Sure, innocents would perish, but amongst all the innocents are assuredly those that harbour thoughts of taking up where bin Laden left off. They must perish also. Whether innocent or not, these people MUST learn that what they or their people unjustifyably dish out, they will receive back ten fold from those who have needlessly suffered.

I have no doubt that the terror we could bring upon bin Laden and HIS people would leave his efforts far behind. As horrible as this concept is, it may just be what is needed, not only to truly open his eyes to what he and HIS people have started (and hopefully scare them into submission, better yet exterminate bin Laden himself), but also to bring a sense of morbid, yet needed, satisfaction to Western people.

Just a thought.

Mark-AUS

I work at large college campus (so does Bill).
We have a bunch of leftwing fruitloops
protesting the “war” on the Taliban. I met
one of these nutjobs holding a sign that
reads ‘America is killing the orphans of
Afganistan’. So I walked up to this joker and
I asked him to explain his position and why
he felt that way after what Al-Qaida did
to us and the Taliban’s refusal to turn
them over and their support for them. The
long haired hippie freak said, “it doesn’t
matter, violence is never a solution to
any problem, violence only begets more
violence and we should not retaliate
with force”. My reply to this was an
overhand right to his nose which didn’t
break it but bloodied it. When the hippie
got up and was about to rush me, I “reminded”
him of his recently espoused “no violence”
philosophy and he looked at me, shot me a
nasty smirk and said, “of course, you are
right, I will not hit you back”. I said,
“good” and hit him with a left uppercut to the
mouth which opened up his lip and knocked him
to the ground. When he got up, I again
reminded him of his “philosophy”. This
went on and on until this kid was pretty
banged up and finally, he took a swing at
me (he winged a punch) and hit me in the
temple. To his amazement, I said, “this is
good you learned something, I am happy that
you did but I wish it didn’t take this
long because my fists hurt from beating your
face in”. The peacenik looked at me, spit
out a tooth and some blood and inquired,
“what is it I supposedly learned?”. To
which I replied, “sometimes, you can only
take so much before you HAVE TO retaliate”.

(OK, so that didn't really happen but it is a pretty cool story, right?).

Brock

I’ve heard that story before Brock :wink: … from a retired Navy chief originally (I think). Yeah sometimes violence is the only answer (some say always the answer… hehe). Related to this, I think it sucks that in our modern society if someone’s being an asshole we can’t punch the shit out of them. I know several people who truely deserve this. But… with lawsuits and the rest, its probably not worth it. I think there was a t-mag editorial on this once.

Cool story Brock, even though its not true. Mark- I have to disagree with what you said. There are too many people over there who do not even support bin laden/the taliban in any way. There is a whole group of “opposition” forces who are afghanis fighting to overthrow the taliban. The tactics you proposed would harm even them. Dont get me wrong, i totally support a strong retaliation, but I do not believe in stooping to bin ladens level of intentionally killing innocent people. The force of our military bombing strategic targets and sending in special forces will be all it takes to wipe out the taliban and the terrorists it harbors.

WAKE UP AMERICA…The holy war has already started.The wicked moslems will not rest until they either destroy us or we destroy them.Don’t believe the politically correct BS that Islam is a peaceful religion and that terrorists don’t represent mainstream Islam…The media tries to portray moslems as being either good or bad.The truth is that they are either true moslems(bin laden,saddam,quadafi,ayatollahs,idi amin,etc)or they are nominal moslems who were born into the culture but don’t follow or practice the wicked,evil cult of Mohammed…Western culture and christianity have been naive and ignorant as to the true diabolical nature of Islam…not so with the eastern european middle eastern and african cultures who have had to deal with this menace for centuries…ask any Greek,Serbian,Russian,Ethiopian,Assyrian Christian,Nigerian Christian,Egyptian Coptic about how "peaceful"Islam is.Ask the Sudanese Christians,who have been genocided to the tune of two million over the last 15 years how "loving"moslems are.Read about the Turkish massacres of millions of peaceful,civilian Armenians…for no other reason than the fact they were Christians.Islam is a horrible,malevolent,bloodthirsty cult…Americans…do your research,read the histories…our survival is not guaranteed.Lobby your represntatives to close national borders,stop immigration.Boycott Arab and Paki businesses.Never trust the SARACEN.

Jason - you’re right bud. There’s just so many angles to come from on this issue, there’s no real ‘right’ thing to do. Keep in mind that my little rant above wasn’t exactly my own personal view (to some extent it was), just a combination of conversational topics of me and friends, put up for debate. And Brock, that was a pretty good story… [grin]

Fuck hippies are stupid why didn’t he just run away? Not a lateral thinker this young man. Tisk tisk. Alright I know it’s just a story but it does serve a point. I would like to think violence as the last solution. All I know is most (including myself) could be more educated on everything that’s going on. I think of some of the things I said earlier and I think my position has somewhat changed. Ignorance is dangerous. However I think the terrorists should be razed to oblivion and beyond. And I do mean Terrorists and anyone associated with them only. Racial genocide is disgusting. :slight_smile:

Keago

The Crusades were pretty fucking senseless and violent. What about Christians massacring Muslims in Bosnia? I’m not going to sit here and say Islam is so great, because I do not following any religion. At one time I did consider converting to Islam because my girlfriend was a Muslim from Malaysia. I bought a copy of the Q’uran and read it carefully. You know what? It DOES contain many violent references. It DOES advocate striking back at infidels twofold in retaliation. After reading it, I could not believe it was the same religion that the nice, peaceful folks like my girlfriend’s parents followed. What it boils down to is that ALL religions are a combination of the written text and traditions. For example, female genital cutting is practiced in many (not all) Muslim countries, though no mention of it made in the Q’uran. Nevertheless, I could never follow such a religion with a holy text that advocated such senseless violence. But that is precisely why I cannot follow Christianity. I am not a Bible scholar by any means, but what I have read is enough to dissuade me from Christianity. I remember one passage where it talks about how the Israelites decimated the Malachites in battle because of their faith in God. Could God cause to happen, or even condone, the mass killing of people, who are all supposedly his children, based on their beliefs? To me, that is not a god, but a malevolent devil. The point I’m trying to make is that once one can accept the wholesale killing of another group of people based on their religion, one has crossed a line. It is a line I refuse to cross. Killing in self-defense, in defense of your country, I personally can support. You won’t find me marching the streets holding up a peace sign. But my acceptance of killing in certain situations is not based on religion or the belief that those we are killing are the “others.” Once one has accepted into one’s heart that all people not of one’s religion are “others” who do not deserve the same human treatment as those of the same religion, a dangerous line has been crossed. It is a line that is crossed when one can no longer see individuals on the other side–they all look the same–they all deserve the same fate. It is a line that is crossed in every genocide. That is a line that has been crossed by nutcases like bin Laden and his followers. It is a line you have crossed, Mark-AUS.

My original post was in response to your original post. If it was a response to your follow-up post, it sounds a bit harsh. All I ask of people is to keep on learning. Right now, I’m reading a book called “From Beirut to Jerusalem,” by Thomas Friedman, a Jewish-American journalist. He is controversial because he, though a devout Jew, is not all gung-ho Zionist. Indeed, he says that he accepted the fact that he would never be trusted by Jews nor Arabs. If you are fully informed and you have reached a different conclusion from mine, then fine. But, I suspect most Americans are spouting off from a position of ignorance. I think Brock is an exception. His rants and raves are what I would classify as racist diatribes, but he is incredibly informed and learned. He reached totally different conclusions from the same set of information than I have, but he is entitled to that. I suspect that vast majority of the people would have a different opinions if they were fully informed.

I say fuck em up bad. does anybody really think bin laden would be taken alive? what soldier wouldnt beat the shit out of him when they find him. His ass is grass. That fuckers days are numbered. I hope they rip his nuts and beard off and shove them down his fucking throat.

For all the enlightened Western education, I can’t believe the fucking garbage that comes out of some people here. “Kill the Muslims”, “bomb Afghanistan”, “Nuke the Middle East”…and it only gets better.

A handful of radical Muslims attacked the US. How does this make all Muslims worthy targets? I don’t see the rest of the world condeming Americans despite their own terrorists like Ted Kazinski and McVeigh or other nutters like Koresh.

Despite your pain and anger, you need to learn how to separate the guilty from the innocent. Use the freedom of the Western world to enlighten yourself about the differences between the bin Ladens (and followers) of the world and sane, rational Muslims.

Many worthy points by people. Don’t let my words lead you to thinking that I dislike any one people. I have no problem with people of different faiths, and I really don’t want to see people needlessly die. So the way I see it, anyone backing up thier veiws with religion have no credibility with regards to that particular point. My problem is with terrorists randomly killing innocents, and the terrorist supporters. I think this is where most people are coming from now, from a view that there’s a line between the terrorists and the rest of the people that populate the entire planet. Also keep in mind that all the talk in my original post of giving bin Laden a taste of his own medicine was aimed squarly at bin Laden, not muslims in general. Finally, keep in mind that the initial post is all conjecture, thoughts of many I know put into a concentrated written piece and put up for comments. Let me put this hypothetical question to you - let’s say Anthrax actually takes hold in America (and Allies), and becomes a serious threat to a large percentage of the population. Then what? How do we retaliate?

My two cents…

  • This is not a religious issue. For me to judge bin Laden in religious terms is akin to allowing someone to judge my convictions based upon the actions of the KKK (I’ve been using this analogy for some time - I was amused to find it used in a recent episode of “The West Wing”).

Bin Laden is a nut job. Intellectually brilliant (we’ve seen the cost of underestimating him), but a nut job, a thug with a big wallet and a public-relations ploy. His actions have no more religious conviction than my watering a tree when I’m walking in the woods. We need to treat him accordingly.

  • As long as we’re telling stories, I’ve always liked the one of the American in Japan visiting one of the shrines dedicated to those lost to the A-bombs.

An old man walks up to him and starts screaming. The teenager with him tries to calm the old man down. The teenager explains to the American that the old man has hated the US ever since the bombs, and considers the American’s presence a desecration of the shrine. When the old man starts talking again, the American asks the teenager to translate the old man’s words.

The teenager translates that the Americans are hypocrites. They talked about how Pearl Harbor was such a travesty, and yet the Americans did the same thing and more. At Hiroshima and Nagasaki, weapons of mass-destruction such as the world had never seen were dropped from the sky, knowing that thousands of innocent men, women, and children would die immediately, and thousands more would die a slow agonizing death from lack of food, shelter, and radiation poisoning.

The American stood in silence, thinking. Finally, he asked the teenager to translate for him. Yes, he told the old man, many of the things he said were true. It was likely more people died and suffered from the bombs than from Pearl Harbor. But still, he continued, Japan was wrong and America was right in what each had done. The old man was fuming. He demanded to know how the American could say that. “Because”, said the American, “Pearl Harbor started a war. The bombs stopped a war”.

Violence (like almost everything else in this world) is a tool, hopefully a rarely used one. How it’s used makes the difference. Do we use it to free or enslave? Do we fight to protect or destroy? For liberty or tyrrany?

  • God grant that is is that last time we have to make these choices, and that we have the courage to face up to our responsibilities…

Let’s send all the peace loving hippies to Kabul to negotiate a settlement with the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden…then bomb the place heavily. While we are at it, we should send hate-mongers likes Bluto along as entertainment for the peaceniks. Get rid of them both. By the way, has anybody noticed that the Rev. Farakan has not been opening his racist muslim mouth much these days? He must be hiding in his hole.

Bin Laden doesn’t represent all Muslims, but to say the Muslim religion is “peaceful”, we are kidding ourselves. It talks openly about killing the infidels (that’s us) and how you’ll go to heaven right away if you die in battle against the infidel. Christianity (in the Old Testament of the Bible) has many references to Jews killing various ethnic groups (because they were “wicked” it explains) however in the “New Testament” that is not the case. Christians are never told to kill non-believers. “Love your brother”…“turn the other cheek”…that’s a little different from “kill the infidel”.

I think we need to 1. expel all non-citizen Muslims from the country. That would inconvenience many as most are not here to kill us...but the ones that are here to kill us blend in with this group. 2. Occupy Iraq, Syria and Saudi Arabia and encourage Israel to absolutely obliterate the "West Bank". Occupy it, de-militarize it and execute terrorists. Many people don't realize that the only reason Israel has the West Bank is that it won the territory in a war that was started by Arabs against it. If the Arabs had won, they would have exterminated Israel.

The idea that Islam is peaceful as propagated by idiots like Oprah Winfrey and most of the mainstream press has got to go. We are kidding ourselves. This is the religion that allows family members to kill a woman if she is raped (she brought dishonor to the family). They are backward, ignorant fucks…as Ann Coulter said “we need to kill their leads, occupy their countries and convert them to Christianity”.

I know that my talk is crazy. But will it be so crazy after they release smallpox? That will kill us by the millions. Either them or us.

Your talk is not crazy at all.It’s refreshing to see an American who gets it,instead of swallowing the politically correct line of shit.The mohamedeans have proven all through their history how they interact with infidels.No matter what your religious beliefs are,or even if you don’t have any,you have been targeted as an enemy.It’s a cultural thing that most western hemisphere people can’t seem to understand.The only response that has ever worked in the past against a “jihad” is a CRUSADE.Read world history people…islam is not a religion as much as it is an inferior,violent,misogenistic,delusional way of life.The barbarians who live as they did 1000 years ago have declared war on our culture and way of life.They refer to as as the great satan???When this is over I think the great satan is gonna be serving up plenty of orders of DUNE COON FLAMBE`.

why do people even comment on whether the muslim religion is peacefull or not? look at your own bible, new and old test. you can kill inocent people, stone your son to death, rape women, have slaves, commit incest, etc… the muslim faith is no more or less peacefull then any other (budism excluded). peace

With all due respect I think the KKK analogy is off base. The KKK may consider themselves “Christians” but they don’t get their ideas on superiority, killing black people, what have you, from the Bible. Also if the KKK does kill someone (which probably hasn’t happened in like 30 years) do you see other “Christians” dancing up and down with glee? Do they carry pictures of the KKK in rallies? The KKK is a fringe group and I don’t know of any mainstream Christians that are sympathetic to them.

Now as far as Islamic extremists are concerned, much of their talk of the “infidel” is straight from the Koran. Many “mainstream/moderate” moslems refuse to disavow Osama bin Laden. He in some way is fighting for them, or so they think. Osama is now the most popular name in Pakistan for new borns or so I’ve heard.

As far as other countries criticizing us for Timothy McVeigh or Ted Kaczynski, these were US citizens that hurt other US citizens. The correct analogy would be, do you find alot of Americans holding pro McVeigh rallies? Of course not. Then why do you find alot of Muslims (not the political leaders but the men on the street) who are happy about Sept. 11th? Dancing in the relatively affluent Bekka Valley and in the West Bank. If Americans celebrated when US terrorists inflicted suffering on foreign countries’ civilians, I’d say you have a point. But no Americans are celebrating and no Americans are terrorists on foreign soil.

The KKK analogy also goes for Hitler. I’ve heard idiots say that bin Ladin is to Islam as Hitler was to Christianity. That’s cute, except for the fact that Hitler despised religion in general and Christians in particular and nothing he did was based on any biblical teaching. Other than that the analogy is pretty good, ha ha.

I agree we should go over with some kind of underground military group. As far as not all muslims are bad, why aren’t they helping us then? because they are starving? fuck that, they know they’re going to starve to death, why not fight terrorists and bin laden and possibly when all the bad people over there are gone, they will get some food for their efforts. If they still choose not to help, just think of it and we’re ending their suffering quickly instead of dragging it on and on. More people are going to die. Either help us kill the terrorists, or you might as well be one.

OK, so let’s say both the Christian and Islam religions tell us to kill the non-believers. It may or may not be true, but let’s just say it’s an absolute as some are trying to point out. Well, as I see it, about 25% of those in the Christian world actually follow Christianity. Whereas maybe 80% of those in the Islamic world follow Islam. The numbers may be off base, but you get my drift. My point is that there’s a hell of a lot more people in the Islamic world that want to exterminate the non-believers, than vice-versa. They also seem much more fanatical about their faith. Perhaps in some ways these people could be called barbarians - I don’t think this is a term that could be as widely used on Christians. My (basic) conclusion then is that the Muslims are a large threat to us today. Anyone care to comment?