Proper Adex Use & Alternatives

Pharma / TRT
21

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
KSman wrote:
E blocks T at T receptors and limits your anabolic and mental response.

No, the affinity of estradiol for the AR is low enough to be irrelevant at actual blood levels.

I also know of no evidence of limiting anabolic response.

As for adverse mental effects, yes, possible.

On other posts insisting that it is NECESSARY to use an AI when any aromatizing steroids are used: No, unless having a really weird definition of the word “necessary.” Countless excellent cycles have been done with no AI and will continue to be done in the future with no AI.

Some of these individuals would have done better or would do better with an AI: in other cases there would be no difference except perhaps a small and later-reversible difference in fat-pattern distribution, e.g. smoother on the arms, legs, and chest than if an AI had been used.

For example, I personally would have no problem at all doing a trenbolone/Dianabol cycle at 50 mg/day Dianabol with no aromatase inhibitor. Even if using no SERM either. If that was what I had on hand I wouldn’t be concerned at all, based on past experience. But that is me.

That a given other person might not and even if all his friends might not does not mean that everybody is like that person, or that person and his friends.
[/quote]

I have come across the statement that E can block T receptors many times. But hard to locate in a pinch. In Eugene Shippen’s book, The Testosterone Syndrome, paper back edition, Page 47… he states: “Estrogen converted by aromatase can actually unlock or displace testosterone at its various cellular receptor sites. Consequently, too much estrogen will switch off activities.”

Wikipedia states: “The androgen receptor is most closely related to the progesterone receptor, and progestins in higher dosages can block the androgen receptor.[3][4]” Which is not on target with this debate but does show another aspect of this activity. Note that blocking is different from binding. E can be there, with a low binding affinitey, but be in the way of T getting near enough to bind.

LEF.org in their paper on Male Hormone replacement states that any levels of estradiol above 30pg/ml need to be reduced.

Higher levels of E2 will increase SHBG. That will reduce bioavailable testosterone. That definitely reduces the anabolic effect of a given amount of testosterone.

I am glad that these guys are hearing what they want to hear.

There is an optimal level of estradiol. I don’t have gyno is not it. An adex dose that in the long term would make some TRT guys on 100mg test cyp per week feel like shit is not appropriate for large amounts of testosterone.

“Countless excellent cycles have been done with no AI and will continue to be done in the future with no AI.” Countless cycles could be better. If someone will try adding a decent amount of adex, they can experience this for themselves. Better yet, towards the end a cycle, add the adex and note how life changes. I am saying that the status quo is not good enough. Telling me that the status quo is good enough seems hollow.

PS, the earth is not flat.

22

[quote]AzCats wrote:

This is pretty much what I wanted to hear. Thanx Bill! The main reason I wanted to hear this is because when i do decide to do another cycle, I would prefer not to be paranoid throughout my cycle because I am not using an AI. The primary reason being…It’s 6-8 bucks a pill(1mg), I just can’t afford it. unless they have a patent for generic Arimidex out. I will probably wait to do my cycle until I can afford Adex, but it’s good to know that it’s not necessary.

I guess I lied a little before when I said I did not have any side effects from my first two cycles. I experienced some depression about a month after i finished my 10 weeks. I’m not sure if this was caused by high levels of Estrogen or not, but it was not fun and lasted for about 2 months. I don’t want to go through that again, so waiting until i can afford some AI would probably be best for me. Thanx for all the feedback guys!
[/quote]

Liquid adex is cheap… now you can take the financial cards off the table. Estrogen rebound after a cycle, even with some PCT methods can lead to mood/depression problems. I expect that your libido took a hit beyond feeling low. In that situation, .5m/week [a reasonable dose when natural] could well have had you on your feet in 7-10 days. I have helped many TRT guys with problems of that type, including a few taking gear on this forum.

I recommend taking 0.5mg/week for an indeterminate amount of time after PCT to let things settle in. I have seen guys get down after PCT and low dose adex has worked well.

Elevated E, not high, ruins lives for guys on TRT. What is learned in the context of long term effects of elevate E cannot be ignored. When guys take 5 to 10 times more testosterone than TRT guys, estrogen levels should be getting toxic. Guys with high normal T on TRT can become depressed by elevated estrogen levels. These effects are in play with gear, but do not have enough time to become developed. I tell guys that TRT without AI is in most cases malpractice.

23

What, you would believe them and not me? :wink:

They are giving you assertions: I will provide you with facts.

First, binding affinities for ligands for the androgen receptor can be determined validly from rat assays. It’s not one of those things where the species makes a big difference. (Oral bioavailability would be a different matter, or half-life, or many other things, but not binding affinity unless the receptor is substantially different, which it isn’t.)

Kd for testosterone is measured as 70 pM, which is 0.070 nanomolar.

Kd for estradiol is measured 0.20 nanomolar.

Source: Endocrinology. 1980 Dec;107(6):2088-98

Now let’s look at levels: let’s say we are talking about letting estradiol get to a quite high value like 100 pg/mL. Just to make it a really bad-case scenario.

But during any decent testosterone cycle, free T levels will be many hundreds of pg/mL.

So between levels being only a fraction as high, and the affinity being only a fraction as great, it’s not a significant effect.

Also in practice it very clearly is not a problem.

Quoting Shippen as a source is respectable and reasonable though he will not always have the facts on everything, particularly things deeper into pharmacology; but quoting Wikipedia to contradict me on this sort of thing really was kind of weak.

And besides this Shippen was NOT talking about free testosterone levels such as are the case in a decent testosterone cycle. He is into HRT, not steroid cycles. So you have taken information about one thing – much more relevant at physiological free T levels and actually somewhat of an effect there – and misapplied it to a different situation. And right after I had given you the correct information too.

Likewise, your posting about how you’ve heard or read it a lot of times means little. All kinds of mistakes have been said and written lots of times. You have to be able to properly evaluate them and to take the care to do so.

As for your “PS the earth is not flat,” I don’t know what you thought you were accomplishing with that. Maybe you thought you would persuade people that what I have to say is of a Flat-Earther nature? Good luck on that attempt.

24

I am stating that I do not agree with current practice and I am geting the flat earth response that I must be wrong.

I did state that blocking was not binding. I do understand the competitive molecular nature [competitive antagonists] of your argument. T receptors blocked with E are going to do what… just sit there or magically disapear?

Why is finding an -argument in priciple- in Wikipedia a cheap shot?

Let me be more complete:
The androgen receptor is most closely related to the progesterone receptor, and progestins in higher dosages can block the androgen receptor.[3][4]

  1. Bardin CW, Brown T, Isomaa VV, Jänne OA (1983). “Progestins can mimic, inhibit and potentiate the actions of androgens”. Pharmacol. Ther. 23 (3): 443?59. PMID 6371845.
  2. Raudrant D, Rabe T (2003). “Progestogens with antiandrogenic properties”. Drugs 63 (5): 463?92. PMID 12600226. http://drugs.adisonline.com/pt/re/drug/abstract.00003495-200363050-00003.htm

You can play some of these cards better than I. But you are defending a position that a controlled amount of estrogen will have no benefits VS higher levels of estrogen that are not causing gyno. I don’t think that that position is defendable by any means. And there can be significant mental/mood issues as well. There will be effects from elevated/high absolute levels E.

25

  1. Read my posts accurately, do not put things into them, and then you will not attribute to me things that not only don’t follow from my posts but are directly contradicted in them.

  2. Your “more complete” argument in no way refutes my measurement-based one. In fact is is just sad: trying to reason by some really-reaching extrapolation when the actual facts just presented to you show otherwise.

  3. I didn’t say citing Wikipedia is a “cheap shot,” I said it was, in the instance of trying to refute me on this sort of subject, weak. I will leave it to you as a further exercise to figure out why.

  4. You continue to try to portray my posts as being flat-earth. Again, good luck in persuading anyone but yourself that that is the case.

Goodnight.

26

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Yes the best dosage that will keep your estrogen levels at bay is .25 mg’s every other day. Just do the dose all at once, no need to separate it up. Works like a charm.

Depending on how your body reacts to test, you can use it instinctively. For instance, I get almost no issues from aromatization so I probably take adex twice a week on cycle instead of EOD. If you are prone to gyno and water bloat easily stick with the .25 mg EOD.

[quote]

Bit of a contradiction here - first you say to use it at 0.25mg EOD then to use it instinctively.

The dose of AI is directly proportionate to the dose of aromatisable AAS too…

The best bet is somewhere in the middle… where you strt on 0.25mg ED/EOD and increase or decrease from there…

I find zero gyno or estrogen problems upto 5-650mg on 0.25 EOD personally…

Brook

27

[quote]Bakuhatsu wrote:
Not to be an ass, but if the whole site recommended taking 2mg/week of test, would you do it?

Just to contrast the 0.25mg/EOD, I found that I wasn’t happy with the amount of water I was carrying from my dosage (only 500mg/week Test E) and am currently using 0.75mg/ED loosely based around KSMan recommend TRT dosage of 1mg/week for 100mg of test.

[quote]

Thats the point. It is based on:

  1. The individuals personal response to adex the drug.
  2. The Amount of Aromatisable drugs being used.
  3. the persons own affinity to aromatase enzyme.

0.25 EOD is a minimum dose for the majority - which is why it is recommended here, however it is a PERSONAL thing for the reasons above so 0.25 cannot be recommended as a standard dose for health reasons - only physique reasons (titties)… cross reference that with the 3 points above and there is the answer.

Everone is different and bloods are handy.

Brook

28

AzCats,

PM me if you like and I will let you know where I get my liquid anastrozole.

29

Mr. Roberts,

Since this thread is about proper adex usage, I don’t think this is a hijack: in the absence of more precise blood testing, am I going about this correctly by upping the dosage every few days until I either experience a lessening of the gyno symptoms (came on a week ago) or until I experience low E sides (at which point I guess I should back off)?

I was at .4mg/day pre-gyno onset, then upped to .7mg/day, and most recently (3 days ago) went with 1mg/day, and have yet to experience the typical low-E sides. Is 1mg/day excessive, or is this vary a lot based on the individual? I’m also hitting tamoxifen citrate at about 40mg/day. I’m taking 750mg test-e/wk, along with 3mg/day finasteride (to avoid chrome-dome) but word is that my gear is overdosed, so maybe more test than that. Should I have already seen some lessening of the gyno, 7 days into this treatment?

Thank you in advance!

30

There are a couple of problems with this approach.

First, due to a half-life of a couple of days or so and it taking several half-lives of dosing for levels to reach those commensurate with a new, substantially-different dosage, a few days is not enough to evaluate a change even with a blood test.

And with regard to responsiveness of gyno or hoped-for lessening, this is at least in many cases too inaccurate and, at least in terms of size of gyno, slow responding.
In terms of nipple soreness, it’s too subject to other factors.

What you are doing with the tamoxifen is correct: if you’ve been at it at quite a while then levels by now should be OK, but if you just started, actually to get blood levels commensurate with a dosing of 20 mg/day, you need about 120 or 140 mg on the first day. (For the same reason as given above regarding Arimidex but even more so.)

So if one hasn’t been taking a SERM and suffers onset of gyno, the answer is not to dick around with letting levels slowly creep up, but immediately taking a dose such as that and then maintaining for example 20 mg/day or 40 for a while if paranoid.

So long as you don’t believe you are suffering any signs of estrogen being too low, in your situation you might as well continue the Arimidex at 1 mg/day. In your individual case that might be the correct dosage with the (perhaps unknown) amount of testosterone you are taking.

31

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
There are a couple of problems with this approach.

First, due to a half-life of a couple of days or so and it taking several half-lives of dosing for levels to reach those commensurate with a new, substantially-different dosage, a few days is not enough to evaluate a change even with a blood test.

And with regard to responsiveness of gyno or hoped-for lessening, this is at least in many cases too inaccurate and, at least in terms of size of gyno, slow responding.
In terms of nipple soreness, it’s too subject to other factors.

What you are doing with the tamoxifen is correct: if you’ve been at it at quite a while then levels by now should be OK, but if you just started, actually to get blood levels commensurate with a dosing of 20 mg/day, you need about 120 or 140 mg on the first day. (For the same reason as given above regarding Arimidex but even more so.)

So if one hasn’t been taking a SERM and suffers onset of gyno, the answer is not to dick around with letting levels slowly creep up, but immediately taking a dose such as that and then maintaining for example 20 mg/day or 40 for a while if paranoid.

So long as you don’t believe you are suffering any signs of estrogen being too low, in your situation you might as well continue the Arimidex at 1 mg/day. In your individual case that might be the correct dosage with the (perhaps unknown) amount of testosterone you are taking.
[/quote]

Very well, thank you kindly. I will take into consideration the blood plasma level ‘lag’ when monitoring sides/gyno response. I have somewhat frontloaded the tamoxifen, and imagine that I’m close to peaking now with my new 1mg/day adex dosage.

32

I hadn’t thought about frontloading Tamoxifen. That frontload dosage you recommended (Bill) is 7 times the daily dose. Can you show me how the calculation is done?

That brings a question to my mind at least. Would it be a good idea to frontload Nolva on the first day of PCT?

33

For any frontload: The dose is the amount taken during one half-life, or on average during a half-life (if using other than daily injections) plus the regular dosage.

That would be in the simplest case. Tamoxifen’s half-life is actually biphasic. I am figuring based on the terminal elimination half-life, which is reported as 5-7 days.

So 6 days’ worth, plus that day’s worth, gives 7x the usual dose.

I would take it as divided doses, not knowing if 7x all at the same time is absorbed equally efficiently.

34

So what would your recommend as the ideal PCT dosage protocol for the following cycle:

W1-6: Test e 700mg/w frontloaded and then EOD
W5-8: dbol 10mg 3x/d

Would it be?:

W09: Nolva (Day 1: 140mg, Day 2-7: 20mg/d)
W10: Nolva 20mg/d
W11: Nolva (Day 1: 180mg, Day 2-7: 40mg/d)
W12: Nolva 40mg/d

35

I would just leave it at the 20 mg/day Nolvdadex through weeks 11 and 12 as well.

I think the only reason 40 mg is often given as a favored figure is on account of having to compensate for not frontloading.

36

Thanks Bill. I love your innovative cycle & PCT tweaks.