T Nation

Proper Adex Use & Alternatives

First off, I live in Mexico…So I’m not even sure if it’s called the same thing or even if I can obtain it here. I am assuming it’s universal and called anastrozole anywhere. First question: Are there any alternatives to Adex? because this stuff is damn expensive and not sure I can afford it for my next cycle. I did not use Adex when I did a cycle about 18 months ago of 750mg test enth for 10 weeks, but Should have and that was not very smart of me. I did have Nolvadex on hand just in case, but they are both completely different.

2nd question: It seems like most peeps on T-Nation reccommend Weeks 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD (reduce to 0.125mg EOD in last week. Is this enough to counter estrogen levels? As I am doing research here, I keep coming across recommended dosages like this: Daily dosage for males is from 0.5mg to 3mg. For women, a maximum dosage of 1mg per day is enough to combat estrogenic side effects.

Because Arimidex has a short active life, dosages are usually taken two to six times a day at equal intervals. 2 to 6 times a day…wtf? Like I said before, I have never used adex before and want to incorperate it into my next cycle and learn more about it. I have also heard some say to not bother with Adex as it kills Igf-1 which is needed for new muscle cell growth.

Yes the best dosage that will keep your estrogen levels at bay is .25 mg’s every other day. Just do the dose all at once, no need to separate it up. Works like a charm.

The only alternative I can think of for Adex is letro, but that’s more expensive and you can easily push your Estrogen levels way to low if you don’t know what you’re doing. Adex is your best bet.

Depending on how your body reacts to test, you can use it instinctively. For instance, I get almost no issues from aromatization so I probably take adex twice a week on cycle instead of EOD. If you are prone to gyno and water bloat easily stick with the .25 mg EOD.

As for the IGF-1 thing, yah that is true to an extent. But it’s pretty much the general consensus that the pro’s outweigh the con’s of using it.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Yes the best dosage that will keep your estrogen levels at bay is .25 mg’s every other day. Just do the dose all at once, no need to separate it up. Works like a charm.

The only alternative I can think of for Adex is letro, but that’s more expensive and you can easily push your Estrogen levels way to low if you don’t know what you’re doing. Adex is your best bet.

Depending on how your body reacts to test, you can use it instinctively. For instance, I get almost no issues from aromatization so I probably take adex twice a week on cycle instead of EOD. If you are prone to gyno and water bloat easily stick with the .25 mg EOD.

As for the IGF-1 thing, yah that is true to an extent. But it’s pretty much the general consensus that the pro’s outweigh the con’s of using it.[/quote]

Thanks for the input Wayland. I am pretty much in the same boat as u as far as aromatization is concerned. My last 2 cycles, I had very little water bloat and no signs of gyno and that was with no Adex or AI at all. If I am unable to obtain an AI such as Adex or Letro, Would Nolvadex help somewhat at maybe 10mg ED to keep etro at check somewhat? I guess my real question is: If I don’t really experience any sides such as Gyno or water bloating, Will an AI be necessary?

I wouldn’t run a SERM throughout your cycle, there really is no need. I guess if you experience no estrogen related side effects you don’t really HAVE to have an AI.

Like I said, I don’t use it that often but I like having it on hand. You could just use the nolva if you ever notice your nipples get puffy or things like that.

an AI isn’t an absolute necessity but it does come in handy. It’s really up to you. If you have never run into issues before, it’s probably not that big of a deal.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
I wouldn’t run a SERM throughout your cycle, there really is no need. I guess if you experience no estrogen related side effects you don’t really HAVE to have an AI.

Like I said, I don’t use it that often but I like having it on hand. You could just use the nolva if you ever notice your nipples get puffy or things like that.

an AI isn’t an absolute necessity but it does come in handy. It’s really up to you. If you have never run into issues before, it’s probably not that big of a deal.
[/quote]Thanks for your time Wayland…Very helpful!

[quote]AzCats wrote:
For women, a maximum dosage of 1mg per day is enough to combat estrogenic side effects.
[/quote]

That is bogus. It is used to take E2 down to zero if possible. There are horrible side effects for men and women from low or zero E.

[quote]AzCats wrote:

I have also heard some say to not bother with Adex as it kills Igf-1 which is needed for new muscle cell growth.
[/quote]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T8X-459J2V0-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=13f717ed8edcea4ced3579a8216b15ce

This study shows that Anastrozole increased IGF-1 in a female cancer setting and confirmed ealier findings.

Extrapolating from this to male estrogen optimization is unwise in any case.

“IGF-1 significantly increased during anastrozole treatment (baseline versus 12 weeks, P=0.031)”

Tamoxifen may lower IGF-1

One also needs to isolate the effects of zero E on IGF-1 from the effects of anastsrozole on IGF-1… something that may be impossible.

[quote]AzCats wrote:

Because Arimidex has a short active life, dosages are usually taken two to six times a day at equal intervals. 2 to 6 times a day…wtf?
[/quote]

It has a 36 hour half life. EOD dosing works well and nothing wrong with ED dosing.

Take all through a cycle and front load on day one. Dose depends on your serum T levels. So no one dose will do. If you take more T, you need more adex and vice versa. Taper down adex as you taper down T, with a 1 week lag. Stay on 0.5mg/week through PCT and for an indeterminate amount of time.

When using hCG, you need a bit more. Do not use large amounts of hCG, never more than 500iu SC EOD. For maintenance, 250iu SC EOD will do the job. Large doses can down regulate LH receptors and you do not want to induce secondary hypogonadism.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Yes the best dosage that will keep your estrogen levels at bay is .25 mg’s every other day. [/quote]

.25mg EOD is .875mg/week.

The basic dose for a guy in TRT of 100mg/week test cyp is 1.0mg/week.

.25mg EOD is dumb ass for gear dosing.

You should be aiming for E2=22pg/ml. Taking just enough adex to avoid gyno is missing the point. E blocks T at T receptors and limits your anabolic and mental response.

Again, adex dose needs to match T dose.

What is an anastrozole over responder? Someone who will crash E levels on expected dosing. These need to take 1/4th or 1/8th of the expected dose. For those, adex acts like letro.

[quote]AzCats wrote:
Thanks for the input Wayland. I am pretty much in the same boat as u as far as aromatization is concerned. My last 2 cycles, I had very little water bloat and no signs of gyno and that was with no Adex or AI at all. If I am unable to obtain an AI such as Adex or Letro, Would Nolvadex help somewhat at maybe 10mg ED to keep etro at check somewhat? I guess my real question is: If I don’t really experience any sides such as Gyno or water bloating, Will an AI be necessary?

[/quote]

A SERM will tackle gyno, but will do nothing about the adverse effects of estrogen on mood, energy, libido and the blocking of T receptors - limiting anabolic response.

Get adex!

This is really wrong: “If I don’t really experience any sides such as Gyno or water bloating, Will an AI be necessary?”

[quote]KSman wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Yes the best dosage that will keep your estrogen levels at bay is .25 mg’s every other day.

.25mg EOD is .875mg/week.

The basic dose for a guy in TRT of 100mg/week test cyp is 1.0mg/week.

.25mg EOD is dumb ass for gear dosing.

You should be aiming for E2=22pg/ml. Taking just enough adex to avoid gyno is missing the point. E blocks T at T receptors and limits your anabolic and mental response.

Again, adex dose needs to match T dose.

What is an anastrozole over responder? Someone who will crash E levels on expected dosing. These need to take 1/4th or 1/8th of the expected dose. For those, adex acts like letro.[/quote]

Pretty much all of the guys here recommend .25 mg’s EOD,it works well for me, so I don’t see what the big deal is.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
an AI isn’t an absolute necessity but it does come in handy. It’s really up to you.
[/quote]

If you know what is going on and do want to get the best results from what you are doing, you MUST use an AI.

These attitudes are get passed around and there is nothing polite that I can say about this crap getting posted to mislead others who read these posts.

If you choose not to use an AI all through your cycle and PCT, that is you loss. Do not post that is optional or not needed.

It does not matter that things have been done that way before. Do some research.

Not to be an ass, but if the whole site recommended taking 2mg/week of test, would you do it?

Just to contrast the 0.25mg/EOD, I found that I wasn’t happy with the amount of water I was carrying from my dosage (only 500mg/week Test E) and am currently using 0.75mg/ED loosely based around KSMan recommend TRT dosage of 1mg/week for 100mg of test.

I feel like I am prone to estrogenic sides (I store a lot of fat on my chest) and have seen a decent reduction in water with none of the bad sides like low sex drive (in fact it’s improved), my mood is great. I’m considering 1mg/day also.

[quote]Bakuhatsu wrote:
Not to be an ass, but if the whole site recommended taking 2mg/week of test, would you do it?

Just to contrast the 0.25mg/EOD, I found that I wasn’t happy with the amount of water I was carrying from my dosage (only 500mg/week Test E) and am currently using 0.75mg/ED loosely based around KSMan recommend TRT dosage of 1mg/week for 100mg of test.

I feel like I am prone to estrogenic sides (I store a lot of fat on my chest) and have seen a decent reduction in water with none of the bad sides like low sex drive (in fact it’s improved), my mood is great. I’m considering 1mg/day also.[/quote]

Alright fellas, all I was saying is what worked for me, no need to get jumpy.

This has also been informative for me and debunk some misconceptions I had, thanks KSman.

Where exactly in Mexico Azcats? I already asked you before, PM me if your worried. The anastrozole I saw was called Altraz. It wasn’t generic, it wasn’t cheap, and it was being sold in dollars not pesos. There are other ways of obtaining generic anastrozole. Research must be done in order to acquire it. No cycle should be started without an AI and a SERM on hand.

[quote]KSman wrote:
E blocks T at T receptors and limits your anabolic and mental response.[/quote]

No, the affinity of estradiol for the AR is low enough to be irrelevant at actual blood levels.

I also know of no evidence of limiting anabolic response.

As for adverse mental effects, yes, possible.

On other posts insisting that it is NECESSARY to use an AI when any aromatizing steroids are used: No, unless having a really weird definition of the word “necessary.” Countless excellent cycles have been done with no AI and will continue to be done in the future with no AI.

Some of these individuals would have done better or would do better with an AI: in other cases there would be no difference except perhaps a small and later-reversible difference in fat-pattern distribution, e.g. smoother on the arms, legs, and chest than if an AI had been used.

For example, I personally would have no problem at all doing a trenbolone/Dianabol cycle at 50 mg/day Dianabol with no aromatase inhibitor. Even if using no SERM either. If that was what I had on hand I wouldn’t be concerned at all, based on past experience. But that is me.

That a given other person might not and even if all his friends might not does not mean that everybody is like that person, or that person and his friends.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
KSman wrote:
E blocks T at T receptors and limits your anabolic and mental response.

No, the affinity of estradiol for the AR is low enough to be irrelevant at actual blood levels.

I also know of no evidence of limiting anabolic response.

As for adverse mental effects, yes, possible.

On other posts insisting that it is NECESSARY to use an AI when any aromatizing steroids are used: No, unless having a really weird definition of the word “necessary.” Countless excellent cycles have been done with no AI and will continue to be done in the future with no AI.

Some of these individuals would have done better or would do better with an AI: in other cases there would be no difference except perhaps a small and later-reversible difference in fat-pattern distribution, e.g. smoother on the arms, legs, and chest than if an AI had been used.

For example, I personally would have no problem at all doing a trenbolone/Dianabol cycle at 50 mg/day Dianabol with no aromatase inhibitor. Even if using no SERM either. If that was what I had on hand I wouldn’t be concerned at all, based on past experience. But that is me.

That a given other person might not and even if all his friends might not does not mean that everybody is like that person, or that person and his friends.
[/quote]
This is pretty much what I wanted to hear. Thanx Bill! The main reason I wanted to hear this is because when i do decide to do another cycle, I would prefer not to be paranoid throughout my cycle because I am not using an AI. The primary reason being…It’s 6-8 bucks a pill(1mg), I just can’t afford it. unless they have a patent for generic Arimidex out. I will probably wait to do my cycle until I can afford Adex, but it’s good to know that it’s not necessary.

I guess I lied a little before when I said I did not have any side effects from my first two cycles. I experienced some depression about a month after i finished my 10 weeks. I’m not sure if this was caused by high levels of Estrogen or not, but it was not fun and lasted for about 2 months. I don’t want to go through that again, so waiting until i can afford some AI would probably be best for me. Thanx for all the feedback guys!

Liquid letrozole is very inexpensive to use. I don’t know if shipping to Mexico is available.

[quote]Bakuhatsu wrote:
Not to be an ass, but if the whole site recommended taking 2mg/week of test, would you do it?

Just to contrast the 0.25mg/EOD, I found that I wasn’t happy with the amount of water I was carrying from my dosage (only 500mg/week Test E) and am currently using 0.75mg/ED loosely based around KSMan recommend TRT dosage of 1mg/week for 100mg of test.

I feel like I am prone to estrogenic sides (I store a lot of fat on my chest) and have seen a decent reduction in water with none of the bad sides like low sex drive (in fact it’s improved), my mood is great. I’m considering 1mg/day also.[/quote]

Glad to see I’m not the only one using a relatively high dose. I’m fighting the onset of gyno (750mg/week test-e, 3rd week), and I raised from .4mg/ed to .7mg/ed, and most recently, to 1mg/day. No creaky joints, low libido, or ‘mental fog’ to report yet. That, and my gyno is still a little itchy and getting worse, 6 days after starting tamoxifen and upping the anastrozole. Is this normal, I wonder?