[quote]Kuz wrote:
miniross wrote:
What i would say is that even if there is a selfish act, it can be a virtuous one. This does not take away what a good deed may be.
Why do we respect others, someone who unreasonably risks life and limb, gives blood, organs. we do this more than any other social creature. Why…there are some excellent books on it (origins of virtue, matt ridley) but in the simplest terms, there is a social or status benefit, which benefits your survival and that of your genes, your children. As a group animal, we fare better as a group. cementing groupishness and a status within that group is paramount.
This is why people may be “the funny one”. it reinforces them within their group, they will be liked, supported and morel likely to prosper within that setting.
When you do something good, you get a reward, a feeling. This must have come into being for a reason. that reason was to reinforce behaviours that benefit others, and as a social animal, we need this. it benefits ourselves to benefit others. Put it this way, You guys love your soldiers, they endanger their lives for YOU, risk mortal injury for YOU. Why? for the money, for the glamour? I doubt it. For commeradery, they could join a soft ball team. No choice? maybe… But they are respected (or should be) and achieve a certain esoteric status within their communities. They are an elite, that we look upon with awe, for their sacrifice. they endangered their genes so that yours could prosper. so there must be a pay off. Now, this would of course be an unconcious driver, one that we may not be aware of, but i is there, as real as anything.
When it comes to heaven, the same mechanism is in place. all religions seem to have this “shangrilah”, a “valhalla” for those who do certain deed, and the oposite for those that dont. This is a device which is used to assist in helping people exhibit certain behaviours, to compy, to scarifice.
You make good points, but there is still something missing from all of this - that you are assuming what the rationale and logic is for someone else besides yourself. I am sure there are people who do things for “selfish” reasons (albeit they might very well be virtuous things) but again, that is not going to be everybody. I think that is what I take the most issue with - that it HAS to be a reward based structure.
You write of our soliders and that is a very good example. Why is it they do what they do? Risking their lives to protect John and Jane Doe? To live up to a principle that is important to them - freedom, liberty, etc. Doing something because you have creed or principle you value does not automatically equate to reward, in my mind. I fully believe it is entirely possible to be selfless in your actions whereas you do not… which is fine. We are just going to come at this argument from 2 different viewpoints based on that primary assumption.
Kuz[/quote]
Rationale and logic have very little to do with gene survival. It is such an inate driver, that we do things without it even entering concious thought, our actions tend to be guided by what are genes are “telling us”…so much for free will. The invisible hand drives us forward.
TRULY selfless people, which there may be some (i doubt it though) must be increadibly few in number. these may be the ghandis, the nelson mandella’s of the world, but they may not live to be survived by offspring, so whtever trait tehy had to ake them so wonderful may not be passed down a gene line. In fact, look at ghandi, his offspring have the reputation granted by his selflessness, they are politically successful, have wealth and increadible social standing. NOw i am not saying what he did was solely based on that driver, as i doubt it is that simple, just that his sacrifice has benefitted his gene line in the long run, as if his gamble paid off.
People like this are still great, still virtuous, have pools of strength that i can only imagine, but this is why we honour them, stand them up and universally applaud them. To speak out against them leaves you chided by a larger group of the populous. It is seen here, on t nation. Th quade the finest thread meant that the populous, me included, swatted the nay sayer. Self governing groups mean that those who rock the boat, are socially irresponsible get brought into line.
The concepts of freedom and liberty for a country also reflect nationalism, and a fight for resource, in 1 way or another. In this instance,(iraq) it was combatting an individual that stood in the way of an ideaology, and endangered people on home soil. In the case of the falklands, British soldiers went and died for a small piece of strategically valuable land the other side of the world as it was “ours”, the argentines invaded because it was “theirs”.
But this is off track. To be seen to support and believe in freedom is also a socially rewarded trait…not often do you see people, politicians say otherwise, or go against the grain. If not, they are forced to conform, with social disgrace as the weapon, the chance of their social status being eroded, thus losing power and leaving their offspring bereft of the benefit of high social standing, thus better and successful lives. Cociencious objectors are riddiculed, they used to be gaoled in attempt to force them to conform, to attach a negative to something which i have to say is quite admirable, to stand against your peers and say the opposite.
I put it simply. These bands that people wear for breast cancer and the like. Why wear them. to show support for a group. why not donate money nd say nothing about it. why wear it on your arm. I must say they are a brilliant idea, as they tap into this need for elevation of status. If i wear a band that say i support the fight against cancer, i have donated money, i am seen as a better person because of my virtuosity. the band is a way of displaying it to others. In the UK, we are not payed for donating blood, it is volentary. The If i ask someone, do they donate blood, they may say yes. i will think they are better than i because i dont. instantly, they have gone up in my estimation as they are dong a “selfless” task, but they will feel good (internal reward) and i may congratulate them and say how brave they are (external reward).
Just think the next time you do something like that, or infact how guilty you feel if when oppotunity arrises, you dont. these 2 ying and yang mechanisms help ensure that on the whole, we do things that help others, but also help ourselves.