[quote]T-chick wrote:
I think I’m going to go right ahead and persist in thinking that it’s ignorant to believe in something for which there’s not one shred of evidence. It’s not a case of ‘no evidence being enough’ because i don’t want to believe; I would LOVE to believe that my soul and those of my loved ones is going to exist forever, and that there is a benevolent god that watches over me, but there is NO credible evidence to suggest this is true.
[/quote]
That’s why it’s called faith.
T-Chick:
There are mountains of evidence. Read the bible and see what it has to say. Just as an example of the evidence, you will find out that as far as historical documents go, the bible is excruciatingly accurate. All the events discussed, etc, did in fact occur. So, who’s to say the rest isn’t true either?
How about the documented power of prayer? I could go on, but I’m tired, its late :-P.
Granted, faith requires by its nature some faith - some willingness to believe. I’d really urge you to take a look at the bible though - you may be pleasantly surprised. At worst, it will be an academic endeavor :).
No no no Kuz, I really am holier than lothario. Me and all Catholics, even the child molesting ones, because lothario is a graceless heathen destined for the hand of God to smite him into the lake of fire for all of eternity. Meanwhile, for their years of righteously tending the Lord’s vineyard, Pope Benedict XVI and all his followers, including yours truly, will lounge in the new Jerusalem being jocked heavily by angels and several virgins each.
P.S. Dear everyone, my short name is DON, not dond.
[quote]Sniper99 wrote:
T-Chick:
There are mountains of evidence. Read the bible and see what it has to say. Just as an example of the evidence, you will find out that as far as historical documents go, the bible is excruciatingly accurate. All the events discussed, etc, did in fact occur. So, who’s to say the rest isn’t true either?
How about the documented power of prayer? I could go on, but I’m tired, its late :-P.
Granted, faith requires by its nature some faith - some willingness to believe. I’d really urge you to take a look at the bible though - you may be pleasantly surprised. At worst, it will be an academic endeavor :).[/quote]
Firstly, the bible is at best tertiary evidence. this is poor and like with all things, has “correctness” if you want to find it. In fact it is anecdotal and is based on observations. that in itslef makes it poor in terms of evidential documents. most things that happened occured way before it was ever written. i believe i am correct in that?
also, i am pretty sure that god did not create everything in 7 days. to this end, there is no evidence, and in using your rational, then whose to say the rest isn’t pish.
The power of prayer. where is this exactly documented, what placebo or controled group study was this wonder done. what sample size. seriously. how many people, say in war, pray, and still die/lose limbs etc. that comment is worthy of ridicule.
[quote]bamit wrote:
miniross,
Forgive my ingnorance, we should have elected you pope.
[/quote]
How the hell does this respond to my post.
Also, are you secretly a cardinal, as i didn’t realise you were responsible for the elections…who did you vote for then?
I was not saying you were ingnorant, just that in reading books by an individual only tell of their subjective opinion.
[quote]dond1esel wrote:
No no no Kuz, I really am holier than lothario. Me and all Catholics, even the child molesting ones, because lothario is a graceless heathen destined for the hand of God to smite him into the lake of fire for all of eternity. Meanwhile, for their years of righteously tending the Lord’s vineyard, Pope Benedict XVI and all his followers, including yours truly, will lounge in the new Jerusalem being jocked heavily by angels and several virgins each.
P.S. Dear everyone, my short name is DON, not dond.[/quote]
You can wait for your virgins. i am not taking the chance, getting mine now, and suffer the consequences later.
this god of yours does not appear very compasionate. I bet that is why popes really work hard in this life. it is to get some pussy on the other side.
also, are angels female or male…or are the androgenous? Either way, good luck in choosing yours carefully.
Don kicks ass!
[quote]miniross wrote:
The power of prayer. where is this exactly documented, what placebo or controled group study was this wonder done. what sample size. seriously. how many people, say in war, pray, and still die/lose limbs etc. that comment is worthy of ridicule. [/quote]
Well there’s your problem then. Apparently, your conception of what God must be is that if everything is not grand and wonderful and if He does not grant your wishes like genie, he must not even exist. Bad things happen to good people all the time, but I don’t have an expectation that God is either punishing them or uncaring. I have hope and strength through God and my beliefs - that’s what I get out of it, so to speak.
And not everyone reads every piece of the Bible as literal, i.e. God created the world in 7 days, etc. But even so, how would you even know in order to disprove this anyway? I think even the greatest of skeptics would still have to wonder how a universe perfectly suited to sustain carbon-based life could come to be like ours out of nothing? Just a Big Bang? Like there was a void of absolutely nothing and then a Big Bang happened? There was no catalyst to it all? Doesn’t that seem a little too convenient of an explanation? I’m not saying this is some kind of iron-clad proof in God, but honestly… don’t things seem a little TOO well constructed?
You and T-chick are both clearly skeptics who expect concrete answers that will simply NEVER come (unless you end up having some miraculous). There are no double-blind, placebo studies and never will be. Either you have faith or you don’t.
Kuz
[quote]dond1esel wrote:
No no no Kuz, I really am holier than lothario. Me and all Catholics, even the child molesting ones, because lothario is a graceless heathen destined for the hand of God to smite him into the lake of fire for all of eternity. Meanwhile, for their years of righteously tending the Lord’s vineyard, Pope Benedict XVI and all his followers, including yours truly, will lounge in the new Jerusalem being jocked heavily by angels and several virgins each.
P.S. Dear everyone, my short name is DON, not dond.[/quote]
Whoops! My bad, Don. So I guess I am holier than lothario too? Sweet.
[quote]miniross wrote:
this god of yours does not appear very compasionate. I bet that is why popes really work hard in this life. it is to get some pussy on the other side.
[/quote]
Wow… you really are a crass idiot. Really classy.
Yes, God forbid that the reason people in vocations work hard in this life is because… oh, I dunno… they want to improve things here for people. That just can’t be the case, right?
Perhaps this is not the right place but I have a question for all that question the Churchs stand on homosexuality.
What is good about homosexuality?
What benefits does it bring?
I am not a gay basher and I do not support any type of discrimination, however I do not understand what benefits homosexual acts bring to individuals or society.
I am very serious about this. Please educate me.
Perhaps the Churchs stance is based on the perception that the negatives of the homosexual act outweigh the positives?
[quote]Kuz wrote:
miniross wrote:
this god of yours does not appear very compasionate. I bet that is why popes really work hard in this life. it is to get some pussy on the other side.
Wow… you really are a crass idiot. Really classy.
Yes, God forbid that the reason people in vocations work hard in this life is because… oh, I dunno… they want to improve things here for people. That just can’t be the case, right?[/quote]
No such thing as truly selfless virtuosity. The pay off for their chastity and peity is the big reward of going to heaven, as i keep being told. Me, i am off for Gnashing and wailing, apparently.
so in answer to your question, yes, they may want to improve things in one way or another, but the reward is always there, i.e. paradise and eternal love. or something like that.
Kuz.
WRT creationism. you are right, i do wonder about what space time anomoly started it. however, i doubt that the deity that many worship had much of a “hand” in it.
in saying people dont always take the bible as literal, i.e. as a metaphor, does this mean that there are many metaphores? is it all a metaphore, open to interpretation? i dont know, but people cant have it both ways.
Zap.
the question can be turned around. What are the negatives of homosexuality? What bad comes to societies that tolerate?
Homosexuality is not a choice. this is possibly where doctrine falls on its arse, as it is based on hugely outmoded ideas that it is a choice, a perversion. Between 2 consenting adults, no exploitation, no violence, then there is no problem, surely.
Homosexuality is biologically driven, and by the reckning of the bible where he has made all the greatures, then they are his doing?
I don’t understand why people who are not in the church, complain about the church.
You ask for proof, because you know none can be given, then you say–“See, I told you so”
Why does 2 + 2=4
Someone, anyone please tell me.
I would agree that the church could move forward a bit on some of their stances, but that is not up to me. It most certainly will not be swayed by the non-believers who feel it is their right to critcize.
Homosexuality and the churches stance on it seems to be a lightning rod for church doctrine bashers. Get over it. There is just so much more out there.
Take any religion and pick it to pieces and see if you agree with every thought and every belief. I doubt that many exist.
If this were the tatoo thread, and somebody came on and knocked it around, people would be screaming and yelling for you to take your opinion elsewhere.
On this thread many have tried to educate/explain as the ctritcism has come in.
You don’t want to open up to the possiblities and explanations, you want to condemn both the religion and the people in it. I look back at all the bashers, and I wonder why your opposition is so strong.
Let us not forget there is a big world out there. A very big universe that we are constantly learning about. Open up your mind to the possibilities.
God bless His Holiness. And God bless all of you–believers and non-believers alike.
Thanks for your blessinigs. that is very kind, even though i think they would be wasted on me.
As far as why 2 plus 2 = 4, well, now that is about algorythms, and we would need a biologist, and mathmatician to go into that.
I also would say that what you state about church/religion etc is also the case with science and knowledge. there are oceans of depth out there to discover.
my gripe is mainly at those who believe in religion, whislt believing in science. I don’t think the 2 are congruent in any way, and to support wholy in one, you must dispense with the other.
[quote]miniross wrote:
Zap.
the question can be turned around. What are the negatives of homosexuality? What bad comes to societies that tolerate?
Homosexuality is not a choice. this is possibly where doctrine falls on its arse, as it is based on hugely outmoded ideas that it is a choice, a perversion. Between 2 consenting adults, no exploitation, no violence, then there is no problem, surely.
Homosexuality is biologically driven, and by the reckning of the bible where he has made all the greatures, then they are his doing? [/quote]
miniross, I have a very good friend who is gay and has the HIV virus. Thankfully his drugs are keeping it under control for now. He caught the HIV virus from a homosexual act. That is one damn big negative!
The world is full of wonderful people that are smart, funny, loving and creative and happen to be gay. They bring wonderful things to society. I do not see what the gay sex act brings.
I see it as a destructive behaviour such as acloholism, drug addiction and the various forms of heterosexual promiscuity in the form of premarital sex or extramarital sex. Sure you can have fun doing it, but there are huge negative consequences.
The Church is not about having fun. The Church is about helping people remove the negative behaviour from their lives and hopefully helping their souls to heaven.
I am certainly not holier than thou, and I do not sit in judgement.
[quote]miniross wrote:
Thanks for your blessinigs. that is very kind, even though i think they would be wasted on me.
As far as why 2 plus 2 = 4, well, now that is about algorythms, and we would need a biologist, and mathmatician to go into that.
I also would say that what you state about church/religion etc is also the case with science and knowledge. there are oceans of depth out there to discover.
my gripe is mainly at those who believe in religion, whislt believing in science. I don’t think the 2 are congruent in any way, and to support wholy in one, you must dispense with the other.
[/quote]
You don’t need algorythms and biologist to explain. It’s just because it is so.
It’s all in the theory.
So because you don’t believe it because science can’t explain it then all who believe in religion should not be able to believe in anything scientific.
Wow
There are so many analogies there that I don’t feel the spce and time are worth it.
There are many things in this world unexplained to date. Hell, we are still finding new species of animals almost as fast as we send others to extinction. If you are waiting for scientific evidence before you believe it as so–well then I’m glad you were not an explorer in the days of the ‘flat’ world.
I’m not trying to convince you, I just wonder about the depth of your misgivings about MY faith. Why does it affect you in what I believe? Why try so hard to refute what I hold true?
And no sir, those blessing were most certainly not wasted on you.
[quote]miniross wrote:
No such thing as truly selfless virtuosity. The pay off for their chastity and peity is the big reward of going to heaven, as i keep being told. Me, i am off for Gnashing and wailing, apparently.
so in answer to your question, yes, they may want to improve things in one way or another, but the reward is always there, i.e. paradise and eternal love. or something like that. [/quote]
Ahh, but that is where we disagree. There is a reward in the end, but you are working from an assumption of that reward being the driver as opposed to the conception of most who devote themselves to a life of service - that doing the “good thing” is just a good, in and of itself as well. I’m not sure it is purely the “Do good thing A and get reward B”. I think it is a big generalization to say that ALL people do good things simply for how it will benefit them in the end.
You have never done something nice for someone else just to be nice and not because you thought you could get something from that person later?
Kuz
[quote]miniross wrote:
Zap.
the question can be turned around. What are the negatives of homosexuality? What bad comes to societies that tolerate?
Homosexuality is not a choice. this is possibly where doctrine falls on its arse, as it is based on hugely outmoded ideas that it is a choice, a perversion. Between 2 consenting adults, no exploitation, no violence, then there is no problem, surely.
Homosexuality is biologically driven, and by the reckning of the bible where he has made all the greatures, then they are his doing? [/quote]
Not sure if this will surprise you are not, but this is something I currently grapple with. Personally, I think you are probably born gay or not born gay (although science has gotten to the point of conclusively proving this one way or the other). I struggle with the notion that if you are born that way and God has His hand in your creation, why would he have you born into a condition that is considered inherently sinful? That has never totally sat right with me, to be perfectly honest with you. So in that, I see your point.
Kuz