T Nation

Plyo + Speed + Weights for Basketball

hey im currently doing Rippetoes for strength and been on it for 3 months. Ive made some great gains but time is running short and I need to improve my speed + strength + vert/explosiveness for the upcoming season (late october)

right now im on a 3 day split for rippetoes SS:
sun, tues, fri are workouts and the rest are pure rest days

stats:
Height: 5`9
weight: 162
squat: 205
deadlift: 220
press: 85
bench: 125

i wanted to incorporate speed and plyo workouts into my schedule while dropping 1 rippetoe day.

sunday- weights in AM + plyo in PM
mon- rest
tues- speed workouts (no more than 550m total volume)
wed- rest
thurs- low volume speed workouts
fri- plyo in AM weights in PM
sat- rest

what do you guys think? would it be better to do plyos some other time?

thanks

Get ready to be told to improve your squat by about 23 people, ha ha.

How old are you?

I second that you need to improve your squat. Until you get your squat up to about 245 or 255, I would worry about that and not so much plyos.

You say you play basketball? Well how often a week are you playing? Remember that your sport comes first. If you aren’t working on your skills, all the hops in the world aren’t going to help you. My best advice would be to go on Saturday and just play some basketball; get out and do a few full-court sprints, spend like 10-15 minutes trying to dunk/touch the rim/whatever is hard for you and then maybe play some pickup for an hour or so or just work on your skills if nobody else is there.

jtrinsey said exactly what I was going to. Work on your squat, yes, but you have to be playing ball 5 days a week. Even if its only 30 minutes of ball handling or shooting drills, you need to become a better basketball player. It’s great that you are working on your strength and are getting in the weight room, but remember your ultimate goal, which it seems like is to become a better player.

Shadowfox, I will differ on much of the strength training to those who specialize in it. However, as a bball coach, I will give you what my expectations would be of guys coming up through my program during this part of the off-season.

  1. Open gym pick up ball 2 hours per night monday through friday. This is a must, you have to build your situational awareness in the sport.

  2. Sprint work before playing open gym. My guys do what we call 18/16 before starting the games. 18 widths of the court in 60 seconds with a 60 second break and then 16 widths in 60 seconds. I have them do sprints before playing to pre-exhaust them and get them used to playing in a fatigued state.

  3. Weight training and reactive plyometric training based on personal development. This is where I will differ you to those who have a greater experience in the specialization.

There is NO need for you to do any plyos or speed work especially with how weak you are. You get enough plyos from playing basketball as it is and you have no strength to take any advantage of plyos to begin with.

There’s also no need for you to play pick up 2 hours a day 5 or 6 days a week. Work on your skills yes, but you don’t need to be in basketball shape till October, so worry about getting in game shape in a couple months. Then, just play more pick up at a fast pace and you’ll be in shape.

[quote]ajcook99 wrote:

  1. Sprint work before playing open gym. My guys do what we call 18/16 before starting the games. 18 widths of the court in 60 seconds with a 60 second break and then 16 widths in 60 seconds. I have them do sprints before playing to pre-exhaust them and get them used to playing in a fatigued state.

[/quote]

This isn’t sprint work though. This is, in my opinion, pointless conditioning. Playing basketball gets you in game shape by itself. If you want them to play in a fatigued state why not have them play up-tempo or for a longer duration.

[quote]Desideratus15 wrote:
ajcook99 wrote:

  1. Sprint work before playing open gym. My guys do what we call 18/16 before starting the games. 18 widths of the court in 60 seconds with a 60 second break and then 16 widths in 60 seconds. I have them do sprints before playing to pre-exhaust them and get them used to playing in a fatigued state.

This isn’t sprint work though. This is, in my opinion, pointless conditioning. Playing basketball gets you in game shape by itself. If you want them to play in a fatigued state why not have them play up-tempo or for a longer duration. [/quote]

Agreed, 5 nights at 2 hours of open gym is also overload and at some point can be detrimental to some kids.

It depends on the athlete though, so I’m not going to make a general prediction. For instance, for many of the kids that train with me, I specifically instruct them NOT to go to some of these coach-run “conditioning” or workout sessions to “get in shape.” Why? Because with proper year-round training, you never get out of shape! To a various degree, you should always be “in shape” for your sport. For instance, if a basketball player plays high school ball, they should certainly be in shape by the end of the season. Then when winter season ends, many of them are playing AAU ball or doing other sort of training. As long as they are performing a maintenance load of conditioning work or up-tempo full-court play (which can be as little as once a week), they can stay at the point where they might only need 6-8 conditioning workouts, which can easily be done in 2 weeks of the pre-season, to get pretty much in full game shape. Remember, you don’t need to be able to play 4 quarters in July, you need that in October/November.

Body fat also comes into play here. It’s pretty damn easy to get somebody who’s 10% body fat into shape.

Desideratus,
Great question, or comment. I get asked this all the time by my players. I am going to firmly disagree that it is pointless conditioning though. Every player has a deteriorating effectiveness curve on the court that at some point becomes exponential. Very little of the game is played at full strength, and if I do my job as a coach, very little is played after that inflection point of effectiveness. I want to get them into that middle zone as quickly as possible. I have found that the best learning comes during this period also, as players seem to know that they need to strike a balance between skill and the nuances of the game.

Please note that the little amount of sprint work isn’t intended to be their conditioning. It is meant to avoid the rather worthless first few minutes of the pick up games that everyone plays at the beginning.

Incidentally, I learned this myself playing college ball and wish I would have employed it in my earlier years of high school and AAU ball.

I’m not saying it’s the holy grail. But I do believe that it sets the tone for the upcoming play, and that there is more total gain from the session than there would be without it.

my advice to you as a college bball player myself would be as far as a strength point of view keep it simple man dont over think it its not really harder than 30 minutes 3 days a week just do 3-4 lifts a day and make sure you do 5-8 reps per exercise, i used to do 3-5 reps per exercise but noticed that really wears your body down especially in lower body movements, i find that i still have that spring when i do sets of 8 for squats, maybe its just me but i find that to work best for me, especially if your training alot doing lots of sprints, agilities etc, keep the lifts simple squats, chins, deadlifts, push press, pullups, bench, rows, dips as far as conditioning if you can get some competitive full court games go for it, play with the best comp possible, What i do is i also do extra conditioning work 3 days a week i do intervals and try and get in the pool 1 day a week usually the 2nd conditioning workout in the week, to be light on the joints, as far as plyos you dont have to over do it but you should be doing some for me personally its as simple as doing 4-5 sets of rims jumps before doing skill work 2-3 times a week, and always warming up with jumprope, and one of the biggest things that has helped me is stretching and foam rolling for like 10-15 mins it really helps as far as keeping your legs fresh if you want to know anything else hit me up theres alot of good stuff thats really helped me on this site man take advantage it will help your game alot, you will be ahead of everyone else if your just in good physical shape when the season starts remember that

Quick question for jtrinsey. As I am limited to my own experiences as a player and a coach, I am trying to place them in perspective.

Do most of your athletes play/practice their sports for less than 10 hours/week?

I ask this simply because your post intimates that this is excessive. Most high school ball players that I have encountered through the years play or played well in excess of this. Most of my guys will play their own games throughout the week before they even settle into the gym for our sessions.

I have no doubt that even without these more structured games, that my players would be playing no less than 15 hours per week on their own. All of this does include downtime by the way as routinely there are 15-20 people participating thus necessitating rest periods.

Is this not the case everywhere?

[quote]ajcook99 wrote:
Quick question for jtrinsey. As I am limited to my own experiences as a player and a coach, I am trying to place them in perspective.

Do most of your athletes play/practice their sports for less than 10 hours/week?

I ask this simply because your post intimates that this is excessive. Most high school ball players that I have encountered through the years play or played well in excess of this. Most of my guys will play their own games throughout the week before they even settle into the gym for our sessions.

I have no doubt that even without these more structured games, that my players would be playing no less than 15 hours per week on their own. All of this does include downtime by the way as routinely there are 15-20 people participating thus necessitating rest periods.

Is this not the case everywhere?[/quote]

It depends on the time of year. At certain times of the year, yes I think 10 hours of INTENSE skill work is excessive. 10+ hours of high-intensity work such as dunking, full-court sprinting, really intense games, etc., is going to limit the development of some physical qualities.

[quote]ajcook99 wrote:
Desideratus,
Great question, or comment. I get asked this all the time by my players. I am going to firmly disagree that it is pointless conditioning though. Every player has a deteriorating effectiveness curve on the court that at some point becomes exponential.

Very little of the game is played at full strength, and if I do my job as a coach, very little is played after that inflection point of effectiveness. I want to get them into that middle zone as quickly as possible. I have found that the best learning comes during this period also, as players seem to know that they need to strike a balance between skill and the nuances of the game.

Please note that the little amount of sprint work isn’t intended to be their conditioning. It is meant to avoid the rather worthless first few minutes of the pick up games that everyone plays at the beginning.

Incidentally, I learned this myself playing college ball and wish I would have employed it in my earlier years of high school and AAU ball.

I’m not saying it’s the holy grail. But I do believe that it sets the tone for the upcoming play, and that there is more total gain from the session than there would be without it.
[/quote]

Point taken.

I thought of this example from Kelly Baggett when I read you say “Very little of the game is played at full strength.” This is more or less some food for thought for everyone as I think this is a GREAT point made by Kelly:

Say we have one basketball player who does everything to increase his VJ (ala a lot of relative strength work) and he attains a 40 inch jump. We have another basketball player who does mainly fitness work and attains a 32 inch vert (which I would say is generous for a basketball player given their typical strength levels coupled with an athlete who does excess conditioning work but the 40 inch is probably a bit generous also).

Therefore, over the course of a game athlete 2 results in no drop in performance while the first results in 5% each quarter.

---------------Athlete 2-----------Athlete 1
-----------------VJ-------------------VJ
first quarter----32-------------------40
second quarter—32-------------------38
third quarter----32-------------------36
fourth quarter—32-------------------34.2
OT---------------32-------------------33

Athlete 1 is STILL jumping higher (along with most likely running faster, driving to the hole harder, quicker on defense, etc.) than athlete 2 even into overtime!

[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
ajcook99 wrote:
Quick question for jtrinsey. As I am limited to my own experiences as a player and a coach, I am trying to place them in perspective.

Do most of your athletes play/practice their sports for less than 10 hours/week?

I ask this simply because your post intimates that this is excessive. Most high school ball players that I have encountered through the years play or played well in excess of this. Most of my guys will play their own games throughout the week before they even settle into the gym for our sessions.

I have no doubt that even without these more structured games, that my players would be playing no less than 15 hours per week on their own. All of this does include downtime by the way as routinely there are 15-20 people participating thus necessitating rest periods.

Is this not the case everywhere?

It depends on the time of year. At certain times of the year, yes I think 10 hours of INTENSE skill work is excessive. 10+ hours of high-intensity work such as dunking, full-court sprinting, really intense games, etc., is going to limit the development of some physical qualities.[/quote]

Here again I think we agree. I would be extremely impressed if athletes gave 10 hours of INTENSE work. During the season, I would consider this excessive (at the varsity level).

From my experience, what I think we would find would be that if you took what I consider to be an average ball player, playing between 3 and 4 hours of ball and shooting per day, that he would be actually putting in somewhat less than what you probably consider intense work.

[quote]Desideratus15 wrote:
ajcook99 wrote:
Desideratus,

Great question, or comment. I get asked this all the time by my players. I am going to firmly disagree that it is pointless conditioning though. Every player has a deteriorating effectiveness curve on the court that at some point becomes exponential.

Very little of the game is played at full strength, and if I do my job as a coach, very little is played after that inflection point of effectiveness. I want to get them into that middle zone as quickly as possible. I have found that the best learning comes during this period also, as players seem to know that they need to strike a balance between skill and the nuances of the game.

Please note that the little amount of sprint work isn’t intended to be their conditioning. It is meant to avoid the rather worthless first few minutes of the pick up games that everyone plays at the beginning.

Incidentally, I learned this myself playing college ball and wish I would have employed it in my earlier years of high school and AAU ball.

I’m not saying it’s the holy grail. But I do believe that it sets the tone for the upcoming play, and that there is more total gain from the session than there would be without it.

Point taken.

I thought of this example from Kelly Baggett when I read you say “Very little of the game is played at full strength.” This is more or less some food for thought for everyone as I think this is a GREAT point made by Kelly:

Say we have one basketball player who does everything to increase his VJ (ala a lot of relative strength work) and he attains a 40 inch jump. We have another basketball player who does mainly fitness work and attains a 32 inch vert (which I would say is generous for a basketball player given their typical strength levels coupled with an athlete who does excess conditioning work but the 40 inch is probably a bit generous also).

Therefore, over the course of a game athlete 2 results in no drop in performance while the first results in 5% each quarter.

---------------Athlete 2-----------Athlete 1
-----------------VJ-------------------VJ
first quarter----32-------------------40
second quarter—32-------------------38
third quarter----32-------------------36
fourth quarter—32-------------------34.2
OT---------------32-------------------33

Athlete 1 is STILL jumping higher (along with most likely running faster, driving to the hole harder, quicker on defense, etc.) than athlete 2 even into overtime![/quote]

I have no reason (and certainly not the credentials) to doubt Kelly. As a matter of fact I am certain that he is correct. Unfortunately, that analysis tells us absolutely nothing about who would win a game. If we take that example a bit further and assign names (let’s call Athlete 2 Larry Bird and Athlete 1 Harold Minor) and further reduce athlete 2’s vertical, anyone who knows basketball would clearly take Athlete 2 despite the fact that at no point during the game did he ever jump higher than Athlete 1.

Now imgaine what Larry Bird could have been like if he had had access to Kelly Baggett.

Everytime you post an endurance sport thread on the strength sports forum, jesus kills a kitten.

this is roughly as relevant as combat pyramids, and rock climbing in the bodybuilding section.

[quote]ajcook99 wrote:
From my experience, what I think we would find would be that if you took what I consider to be an average ball player, playing between 3 and 4 hours of ball and shooting per day, that he would be actually putting in somewhat less than what you probably consider intense work. [/quote]

Yep. And as a coach you have to know your players. Some want to just go-go-go all the time. Those are the kids you have to assign a lot of “technique” work that is at a low intensity so they don’t kill themselves and wear down. Some kids are just lazy and they need to be kept in an up-tempo environment or they won’t do shit.

Squat more
Eat(clean) more
Jump more

Bam!!

[quote]ajcook99 wrote:
Desideratus15 wrote:
ajcook99 wrote:
Desideratus,
[/quote]

Please realize that people come in all shapes sizes and life experiences. Just because Kelly Bagget says so does not make it, the bible.

Desideratus - the argument between you and Jtrinsey can easily go either way depending on the person your talking abouts age, work capacity or even if they are in or out of season.

The argument between you and AJcook can go either way depending on what type of athlete you have. Some ball players use their athletecism well, some use there skill well. There was one point in Kobe’s career when he was SUPER ATHLETEIC around the time he had the commercial with the squats with chains, right after that is when he got knee problems though. So while he is still a great athlete, for him being a better athlete is not neccessarily whats best.

To the OP for basketball the most important exercise is your squat. Build your squat up slowly, unless your a senior in college on draft night you have more time then you think. If your doing skill work and playing enough you do not need plyometrics, it will just over train you.

Many times the weeks leading up to tryouts is when people get hurt because they get that sudden sense of urgency and try to over do things. Now’s the time to relax and let your game come to you, learn to listen to your coach, and make your strengths stronger. If you really want to be better once the season starts focus on how your going to go about getting better for next year.

[quote]ajcook99 wrote:
Desideratus15 wrote:
ajcook99 wrote:
Desideratus,

Great question, or comment. I get asked this all the time by my players. I am going to firmly disagree that it is pointless conditioning though. Every player has a deteriorating effectiveness curve on the court that at some point becomes exponential.

Very little of the game is played at full strength, and if I do my job as a coach, very little is played after that inflection point of effectiveness. I want to get them into that middle zone as quickly as possible. I have found that the best learning comes during this period also, as players seem to know that they need to strike a balance between skill and the nuances of the game.

Please note that the little amount of sprint work isn’t intended to be their conditioning. It is meant to avoid the rather worthless first few minutes of the pick up games that everyone plays at the beginning.

Incidentally, I learned this myself playing college ball and wish I would have employed it in my earlier years of high school and AAU ball.

I’m not saying it’s the holy grail. But I do believe that it sets the tone for the upcoming play, and that there is more total gain from the session than there would be without it.

Point taken.

I thought of this example from Kelly Baggett when I read you say “Very little of the game is played at full strength.” This is more or less some food for thought for everyone as I think this is a GREAT point made by Kelly:

Say we have one basketball player who does everything to increase his VJ (ala a lot of relative strength work) and he attains a 40 inch jump.

We have another basketball player who does mainly fitness work and attains a 32 inch vert (which I would say is generous for a basketball player given their typical strength levels coupled with an athlete who does excess conditioning work but the 40 inch is probably a bit generous also).

Therefore, over the course of a game athlete 2 results in no drop in performance while the first results in 5% each quarter.

---------------Athlete 2-----------Athlete 1
-----------------VJ-------------------VJ
first quarter----32-------------------40
second quarter—32-------------------38
third quarter----32-------------------36
fourth quarter—32-------------------34.2
OT---------------32-------------------33

Athlete 1 is STILL jumping higher (along with most likely running faster, driving to the hole harder, quicker on defense, etc.) than athlete 2 even into overtime!

I have no reason (and certainly not the credentials) to doubt Kelly. As a matter of fact I am certain that he is correct. Unfortunately, that analysis tells us absolutely nothing about who would win a game.

If we take that example a bit further and assign names (let’s call Athlete 2 Larry Bird and Athlete 1 Harold Minor) and further reduce athlete 2’s vertical, anyone who knows basketball would clearly take Athlete 2 despite the fact that at no point during the game did he ever jump higher than Athlete 1.

Now imgaine what Larry Bird could have been like if he had had access to Kelly Baggett. [/quote]

I understand what you are saying and it is certainly relevant, all I was really talking about was which raw athlete one would rather be. In a game such as basketball being the best player is what matters most not the best athlete. However, obviously we all consider becoming a better athlete important as well.

I think it is important to note though that the raw athleticism the OP is trying to acquire is something just about every NBA athlete already has. Therefore, at that level skill is what determines distinction among the best and the rest. There are very few examples of great NBA players who aren’t great athletes as well.

And many of those who aren’t great athletes don’t need to be considering the height they possess. For example, Larry Bird’s game probably wouldn’t have changed a lot if he was any better of a raw athlete considering he was already 6’9".