Believing in luck is totally disempowering. It’s like trying to determine to what extent genetics will limit your strength gains.
Hey, randman:
I think that these Forums work best when there is open, frank communication…especially with the “regulars”…
For that reason…I apologize…
I got a little “heated” because too many people were coming on this thread at least seeming to imply that I felt “rich people were just lucky” and that hard work and motivation were secondary.
Again…that was not what I was saying…
What I was saying is that the Billionaires whom write the books, lecture and make the Commercials (the NASDAQ commercial is the latest one)…give us LOADS of what it TRULY takes (vision, motivation, hard work, failure, risk)…but seem to never say…“…and there were some real blessings/breaks/opportunities along the way too…”
To me, that paints a complete picture of what, quite franky, are often some amazing individuals and stories…
I think Terumo said it best:
"…First of all, I think that hard work is the cornerstone for obtaining wealth. I also think that luck always plays some role in the crux of human success. That being said, it is certainly possible to obtain great wealth with only mediocre luck.
However, when you speak of billionaires (as does this thread), you are referring to the uber-elite among financial giants. At this point of economic success, there has to be something playing a role rather than good ole’ hard work…"
T communicates MUCH better than me!
Mufasa
[quote]randman wrote:
Terumo, You’re right. I’ve got to refrain from posting until after the VD…[/quote]
V-Diet, eh? Then you certainly deserve a pass. I’m sure I’ll be offending everyone on this forum when my cutting begins.
Here’s an idea… Someone needs to create a cool icon for the V-Diet, and anyone that is currently on that regimen can use it as an avatar. Sort of a “High Voltage” label, if you will.
~Terumo
After I relieved my emotional baggage on this thread I actually agree with what you and Terumo are saying to a certain degree. Hard work by itself does not equal success (which I never stated) and luck does indeed play a role. This is true of financially independent people who are millionaires, multi-millionaires and billionaries.
I think there are different levels of luck. There is the luck of being born into a successful family. This still doesn’t guarantee success however. For every equally sucessful son and daugther there are a dozen other life sucking leeches that never make anything of their lives despite their parents lot in life.
Another type of luck is blind luck like winning the lottery. Even this luck can be a curse for those who are not emotionally prepared for the amount of money they receive. You’ve heard the stories, they blow through all of their money in 5 years. I’d like to torture these people. Give me this blind luck and I will make good on my winnings by growing the money and living off the interest, I digress.
Then there is the luck that comes to those individuals who have a burning desire in life to make something of themselves and will not stop pursuing their dream until it is obtained. Thus the saying, “the harder I work the luckier I get”.
These are the people who embarass the law of averages by putting in massive effort into their businesses and failing over and over again along the way. They learn from their mistakes and adjust course continuing to move aggressively towards their goals.
It is then that they are presented situations that others would classify as lucky when in fact these situations would never have occurred if the individual did not pursue his dream in the first place. Which leads me to the source of another quote “success results when preparation meets opportunity” or luck.
I think there is a risk in pointing out the luck factor with successful people on this thread. It gives those that are chained by their own self-limiting beliefs another excuse as to why they’ll never be successful.
If you’d like to hear more, you can buy my audio tape series entitled “yes, you too can be a billionaire in six simple steps” at www.randman.com. It’s just 3 easy payments of $19.99. I will also throw a set of ginsu knives for free! Order now because there are limited supplies.
I think a key question for this discussion is:
Is the ability to recognize a market, design a product to suit that market, and bring it to market in a reasonable amount of time and at a reasonable price a talent or the product of luck?
I think that its mostly talent to be able to do all those things. Or to atleast have the ability to find the people that can do the parts of that puzzle you may not be able to do yourself. Granted some luck comes into it. I don’t need my Venture Capitalist dying in a car wreck with my business plan with him. But a lot more comes down to ability.
Also on the topic of work ethic and being very, very rich. You can “never” work for someone else and become extremely wealthy. Excluding possibly pro athletes and maybe one to two others. Almost all the people who make their money must make it by becoming entrepreneurs. Look at Russell Simmons or P. Diddy? Great rappers/producers? No. They’re great businessmen.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Hey, randman:
I think that these Forums work best when there is open, frank communication…especially with the “regulars”…
For that reason…I apologize…
I got a little “heated” because too many people were coming on this thread at least seeming to imply that I felt “rich people were just lucky” and that hard work and motivation were secondary.
Again…that was not what I was saying…
What I was saying is that the Billionaires whom write the books, lecture and make the Commercials (the NASDAQ commercial is the latest one)…give us LOADS of what it TRULY takes (vision, motivation, hard work, failure, risk)…but seem to never say…“…and there were some real blessings/breaks/opportunities along the way too…”
To me, that paints a complete picture of what, quite franky, are often some amazing individuals and stories…
I think Terumo said it best:
"…First of all, I think that hard work is the cornerstone for obtaining wealth. I also think that luck always plays some role in the crux of human success. That being said, it is certainly possible to obtain great wealth with only mediocre luck.
However, when you speak of billionaires (as does this thread), you are referring to the uber-elite among financial giants. At this point of economic success, there has to be something playing a role rather than good ole’ hard work…"
T communicates MUCH better than me!
Mufasa
[/quote]
Terumo stated:
“However, when you speak of billionaires (as does this thread), you are referring to the uber-elite among financial giants. At this point of economic success, there has to be something playing a role rather than good ole’ hard work…”
I completely disagree with the above statement!
That is essentially stating that the more one has achieved financially the luckier that they are. Hence, if you are worth 500-k you are pretty lucky. If you are worth one million dollars you are really lucky. If you are worth 10 million you are incredibly lucky and if you are a billionaire you then the luckiest of all!
Bullcrap!
Why is it so difficult to understand that certain people are more inclined to be good at making money than others? Some people are good at painting. Are they lucky? No they are good! Some people are highly skilled at Math. Are they lucky? No they are good! Is there any other skill that you would attribute to luck? Was Lance Armstrong incredibly lucky to win 6 Tour De France races?
As soon as you bring money into the picture some people want to hang the word “luck” around it. People who have more money, especially Billionaires are simply GOOD at making money, and they have a desire to do so.
Geez…
For the sake of arguing, we are now bickering to futility about what the term “luck” does and does not mean.
Financial success does not directly correlate with “luck.” I have no idea from where you drew that conclusion, for I never said that. My point is that it takes more than hard work and skill to become a billionaire. Call it “luck,” or whatever you so desire.
[quote]Zeb wrote:
Was Lance Armstrong incredibly lucky to win 6 Tour De France races?[/quote]
No, he wasn’t. Although, we could debate the involvement of “luck” in genetic gifts, I’ll abstain from that. Armstrong had a task for which he could directly practice and train. How is it that one can practice or train for making money? Not possible. Sure, I could invest countless hours into education, marketing, and research. That is the closest I can imagine to “training” for financial success. Between my job and education, I spend about 14-16 hours per day at the university. I have done this for the past 6 years. Am I “training” hard for my career? Hell yes. Do I have any delusions of becoming a billionaire? Not in the least. I have the “desire” (as you put it), and I am working toward that goal, but it still takes more. Sure, I could have an idea or an investment that just takes off like a rocket, but that is something that I would classify as “luck.” Until that happens, I’m going to do my job, do my research, and make some decent money. I just won’t be bringing in any checks (in the near future) that are Rockefeller-esque.
~Terumo
Terumo:
You stated:
“Financial success does not directly correlate with “luck.” I have no idea from where you drew that conclusion, for I never said that.”
I drew that conclusion from your posts. All you have to do is stop saying that it takes “luck” to become financially succesful, then I won’t think that you think it takes any luck to become a billionaire!
You stated: “At this point of economic success there has to be something playing a role rather than good ole’ hard work…”
Then you stated it again…
“My point is that it takes more than hard work and skill to become a billionaire. Call it “luck,” or whatever you so desire.”
There is no more luck in becoming a billionaire than there is luck in winning the Tour De France, or the Heavyweight boxing title, or being able to Bench Press 400lbs. You know you have to work you butt off in the Gym in order to improve your physique, or gain more pounds on your Powerlift. No luck, just working smart and hard. However, when it comes to making money some of you suspend reality and think it just must be related to luck…nutty!
The fact that some people associate “luck” with having money does seem common. However, anyone who has the skill to make 1 million dollars is not lucky. They are skillful at making money.
This is how you never become wealthy:
“I spend about 14-16 hours per day at the university.”
"Sure, I could have an idea or an investment that just takes off like a rocket, but that is something that I would classify as “luck.”
Do you think that developing an idea which succeeds in the market place is luck? Do you have any idea how much time, thought and research it takes in order to create such an idea? There is no more luck involved than a star athlete who is awarded handsomely for his many years of hard work.
You become good at making money the same way you become good at anything else. If you want to become an Entrepreneur then you need to become good at all of the skills an Entrepreneur needs.
They are many: 1. Writing a business plan. 2. Understanding product, or service trends. 3.Saving money. 4. Good communication skills. 5. Developing persistence in your quest for financial freedom. 6. Negotiating, leases, contracts etc. 7. Raising capital for your idea. 8. Making contacts with like minded people.
And many more things such as this that make up “working hard and smart.” None of them, I repeat: NONE OF THEM relate to “luck.”
Those who are worth one million dollars have attained many of the above. Those who are worth a billion dollars have probably attained all of them and many, many more!
It’s not luck, it never was and it never will be!
“I just won’t be bringing in any checks (in the near future) that are Rockefeller-esque.”
And you never will in the far future either, until you begin to focus exclusively on making money and the skills that go with it!
Skills are learnable. Talent is not. When many of us are using the word “luck,” we intend it to mean a certain “something” that one either has, or does not. Something that is outside of conscious control and (probably) cannot be developed by hard work. Unless, of course, you subscribe to the Napoleon Hill “Infinite Intelligence”/Carl Jung’s “collective unconcious” theory, in which case, you just have to “train yourself” to “tap into” all these great ideas floating around the ether.
ZEB, you talk about the skills involved in establishing, marketing, and developing a business, but not about the initial spark of creativity that is necessary to first come up with that groundbreaking idea.
Btw, Terumo says that he spends 14-16 hours a day at university, and you think that’s a bad thing?
[quote]nephorm wrote:
Skills are learnable. Talent is not. When many of us are using the word “luck,” we intend it to mean a certain “something” that one either has, or does not. Something that is outside of conscious control and (probably) cannot be developed by hard work. Unless, of course, you subscribe to the Napoleon Hill “Infinite Intelligence”/Carl Jung’s “collective unconcious” theory, in which case, you just have to “train yourself” to “tap into” all these great ideas floating around the ether.
ZEB, you talk about the skills involved in establishing, marketing, and developing a business, but not about the initial spark of creativity that is necessary to first come up with that groundbreaking idea.
Btw, Terumo says that he spends 14-16 hours a day at university, and you think that’s a bad thing?[/quote]
The way I interpreted his 14-16 hours at the university, he is training for a given career. That is a good thing, however I assumed it was a career that was not going to make him financially independent. He did this “for the past 6 years.”
More importantly, if he wants to become wealthy is he now spending his time wisely? It has already been stated by many on this thread (and it’s true) if you want to become financially indenpendent you had better work for yourself. Is he planning that by spending the past 6 years working and going to school? Maybe, but I would use the time doing something else, if (and that’s a big if) he wants to become financially independent. If he is after a good career and financial independence is not an important part of that, then no problem.
As far as that
“certain spark” which creates that “groundbreaking idea” I think that can be cultivated. The first thing you need to do is make this your primary focus. No one becomes wealthy without first placing an intense focus on becoming wealthy!
If you are looking for an idea you might find it by looking at various Entrepreneur magazines. Get some ideas by keeping your eyes open to the possibilities around you. Of course, you first should narrow down the area where you want to focus: Real Estate, Service business, Product development, etc.
Warren Buffett doesn’t go with his “gut feeling”. He makes carefully cultivated decisions in the business of business. You don’t even need a great, original idea. You can just do someone’s elses ideas better than they can.
Windows vs. Macs
Better product. Bad businessmen. Its not the idea but the “talent” or “learned ability” or whatever they learned how to do better than those goons over at their competition.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
All you have to do is stop saying that it takes “luck” to become financially succesful, then I won’t think that you think it takes any luck to become a billionaire!
[/quote]
[Note: I have never said it takes “luck” to become financially successful. I have said it takes “luck” to become a billionaire.]
Zeb, this is just where you and I differ. I don’t know how you define “luck.” It is even a highly subjective issue as to what “luck” actually is. However, let me reiterate these points that I think were lost in the spiel:
(1) There is a difference in becoming wealthy and having a billion dollars. Likewise, there is a difference in becoming a brilliant, successful scientist and winning the Nobel prize. I just don’t think that a person acquires a billion dollars through hard work alone. There are many people that have had great ideas and great marketing behind those ideas but have never made a billion. They may have become exceedingly wealthy, but perhaps not to this degree.
(2) How many billionaires have had to deal with the following misfortunes:
*Dropping out of college to help support their family after a medical crisis.
*Contracting a chronic disease at a young age.
*Being drafted into the military at a pivotal point in their entrepreneurship.
Often times, luck is simply being devoid of misfortune at crucial times.
(3) I do believe in the so-called “American Dream;” however, I do not think attaining billionaire status is that. I think it is completely possible to become enormously wealthy by simply having those skills and desires that are needed to make money. However, I think in order to make a billion dollars, you need a bit of fortune to smile upon you at some juncture.
When you speak of a billionaire, you are talking about the richest among the rich. Using a “financially successful person” and a “billionaire” synonymously would be, in the physical world, comparing Muscle & Fitness writers to Ronnie Coleman. It just isn’t the same league.
I’m seeing by your posts, Zeb, that we just aren’t going to see eye-to-eye on this, and I can respect that.
~Terumo
I know this is banter between nephorm and ZEB, but let me clarify things.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
The way I interpreted his 14-16 hours at the university, he is training for a given career. That is a good thing, however I assumed it was a career that was not going to make him financially independent…[/quote]
I hope to god that I’ll be financially independent when I’m done! Hell, I’m financially independent now; it’d better not change once my formal education is over! Haha.
[quote]Zeb wrote:
…More importantly, if he wants to become wealthy is he now spending his time wisely? It has already been stated by many on this thread (and it’s true) if you want to become financially indenpendent you had better work for yourself. Is he planning that by spending the past 6 years working and going to school? Maybe, but I would use the time doing something else, if (and that’s a big if) he wants to become financially independent. If he is after a good career and financial independence is not an important part of that, then no problem…[/quote]
By this, I am taking it that you define “financial independence” as “being your own boss.” If that is the case, I have no desire for that. I do plan on attaining some wealth, but I do not have the desire to become a billionaire. It just doesn’t coincide with my career path, and entrepreneurship does not interest me. I assumed that “financial independence” referred to having no debts and relying solely upon your own income. Once again, terminology is a very important variable.
~Terumo
[quote]Terumo wrote:
(1) There is a difference in becoming wealthy and having a billion dollars. Likewise, there is a difference in becoming a brilliant, successful scientist and winning the Nobel prize. I just don’t think that a person acquires a billion dollars through hard work alone. There are many people that have had great ideas and great marketing behind those ideas but have never made a billion. They may have become exceedingly wealthy, but perhaps not to this degree.
[/quote]
There are billionaires that became lucky to get that much money. Mark Cuban is one that comes to mind. He was already a multimillionaire (through his own hard work) by creating and selling an IT services firm.
He then started and sold broadcast.com to yahoo at the pinnacle of the dot com craze for billions of dollars and became a billionaire in the process. That company wouldn’t be worth a fraction of that amount today. Was his timing lucky? Yes. But he still created the environment where he could take advantage of this very fortunate timing.
The way you ascribe luck to billionaires in your post is like saying that good fortune just fell on their laps. What you’re also saying is this can never happen to me. Terumo, you create your own luck. The more action, intelligence, focus, will power and desire you pour into your dream or goal or business, the luckier you will get…guaranteed. It’s the law of averages.
Please. Don’t start this. How many examples do you want to me throw at you of billionaires who had to overcome incredible odds to become successful. I already gave you one in a previous post: Dhirubhai Ambani, the gas station attendant to billionaire. Did you gloss over this example? Let me know if you would like more.
People in life who are ultimately successful will do what it takes to achieve their goal despite the obstacles thrown at them which includes billionaires.
Your belief system is coming through loud and clear on this thread and it says “billionaires must have had luck thrown at them, that’s why their billionaires and that is my justification for feeling good about my own situation”.
Look man, I’ll never be a billionaire either but I don’t have to explain away why others are billionaires to justify my own lot in life.
Of course good fortune will shine upon most of them. Where I have a problem is that it sounds like you’re saying that this is exclusive to billionaires. Good fortune shines on everyone at one point or another. And again, the harder you work, the more desire and willpower you possess, the more hungry you are to read, and absorb and assoicate with other successful people, the LUCKIER you will get.
I don’t know if I’m just bad at communicating, or if the majority here just wants to argue and pick-apart everything that is said. It is certainly one of the two.
~Terumo
[quote]randman wrote:
Your belief system is coming through loud and clear on this thread and it says “billionaires must have had luck thrown at them, that’s why their billionaires and that is my justification for feeling good about my own situation”.[/quote]
Look. Say what you will. Disagree however you wish. But do not ever try to convey that I am justifying my situation in life, as if I am a lesser person than these beloved, brilliant billionaires of which we speak. You don’t know me, and you don’t know what I do or what my intentions are for the future.
Yes, I think people that earn a billion dollars have to have had some luck along the way. Analogously, and since you insist upon bringing my personal life into this argument, I have had some luck in my life also. If I was a religious person, I guess I would call those things “blessings.” Would that be more acceptable?
~Terumo
Terumo
I agree with one of your points. We have to make sure that we are using the same terminology. Allow me to put forth my own, if you don’t mind:
- Luck-Having some good fortune come your way with no real action being taken on your part. This happens to each and everyone of us several times in our lifetimes. Will we know what to do with it when it happens? Someone who is prepared and focused on the goal of making money will know exactly what to do! Ask TC how hard he worked to start T-Nation. Ask him if he had to overcome any obstacles in his life…
Ronnie Coleman had to work very very hard to achieve his status. Many are born with his genetics and never touch a weight or even understand how to perform a simple standing press. He had desire and worked hard and smart. Most gave up long before they were anywhere near his level of development.
- Financial Independence- This means never having to work for anyone else again the rest of your life! It means that your investiments, or your very own business is making enough money so you are “independent” of others.
Everyone can become financially independent if that is their primary goal. It does take desire and total focus, among the many things that I have already listed in my previous post. Luck is not one of the things that is required. Don’t get me wrong, just because it does not take luck to become a millionaire that does not mean that you cannot win the lottery and become wealthy in that manner. That would be “lucky” indeed. But…even then you have to actually purchase a ticket, so there is still an element of effort albeit small.
Aside from lottery wins and inheritance luck is pretty much unimportant when attempting to make money. In fact, I will go so far as to state those who think that luck plays a role will never become wealthy! Reason being that they will be thinking that some sort of lucky happenstance must occur in order to become wealthy. They will then not prepare focus and attain all of the qualities needed to become wealthy, that I stated in my previous post.
The businesses below were started by regular guys, just like you and I. They had to overcome obstacles. Things like being raised in an orphanage, being handicapped, having a disease, not being able to speak the english language (in America!), being raised in poverty etc. They kept going because of their burning desire, and the skills that they attained because of that desire, not luck:
a) Subway - Subs with under 6 grams of fat.
b) Federal Express - When it Absolutely, Positively Has To Be There Overnight?
c) Dominos Pizza - 30 Minutes or it’s FREE!
d) Real Estate Agent- Specialises in Just 250 Homes in the Milford Area.
e) 9 Seconds.com - Search Engine Positioning without geographical conflict of interest.
f) Video Easy - Get it first, or get it free. (Note: They’re talking about getting videos when you walk into the store.)
g) Biz Tactics.com - Marketing Books you can read in 30 Minutes or less.
h) Hardware Store - Only 3% Markup on wholesale prices
i) Law Firm - House Conveyancing for a flat fee of $1000. No hidden costs.
k) Indian Restaurant - 100 Dishes to choose from if you don’t fancy butter chicken.
l) Herbal Smoke Away - Money back if you don’t give up smoking in just 7 days.
M) Wendy’s-making an adult version of McDonalds for the parents
The list is endless. Some billionaires, some millionaires, but all financially independent. All succeeded because of their burning desire and the skills they attained because of that desire, not luck!
Finally, I’m not trying to be argumentative (at least not on this post :), just don’t want any aspiring Entrepreneurs to get discouraged thinking that luck has to play a role in any success.
Someone’s been reading up on USPs. I read somewhere that Dominos was started by this broke kid who just dropped out of college. I think. And he came up with a “billion dollar” USP.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
a) Subway - Subs with under 6 grams of fat.
b) Federal Express - When it Absolutely, Positively Has To Be There Overnight?
c) Dominos Pizza - 30 Minutes or it’s FREE!
d) Real Estate Agent- Specialises in Just 250 Homes in the Milford Area.
e) 9 Seconds.com - Search Engine Positioning without geographical conflict of interest.
f) Video Easy - Get it first, or get it free. (Note: They’re talking about getting videos when you walk into the store.)
g) Biz Tactics.com - Marketing Books you can read in 30 Minutes or less.
h) Hardware Store - Only 3% Markup on wholesale prices
i) Law Firm - House Conveyancing for a flat fee of $1000. No hidden costs.
k) Indian Restaurant - 100 Dishes to choose from if you don’t fancy butter chicken.
l) Herbal Smoke Away - Money back if you don’t give up smoking in just 7 days.
M) Wendy’s-making an adult version of McDonalds for the parents
The list is endless. Some billionaires, some millionaires, but all financially independent. All succeeded because of their burning desire and the skills they attained because of that desire, not luck!
Finally, I’m not trying to be argumentative (at least not on this post :), just don’t want any aspiring Entrepreneurs to get discouraged thinking that luck has to play a role in any success.
[/quote]
[quote]Terumo wrote:
randman wrote:
Your belief system is coming through loud and clear on this thread and it says “billionaires must have had luck thrown at them, that’s why their billionaires and that is my justification for feeling good about my own situation”.
Look. Say what you will. Disagree however you wish. But do not ever try to convey that I am justifying my situation in life, as if I am a lesser person than these beloved, brilliant billionaires of which we speak. You don’t know me, and you don’t know what I do or what my intentions are for the future.
[/quote]
I don’t think you’re a lesser person just cuz you’re not a billionaire. It just sounds to me that that you’re attributing others phenomenal financial success to luck and happenstance. I’m comfortable to say that I’m not the entrepreneurial type without justyifying it with lots of reasons why not. That was my point.
Cool, you agree everyone gets lucky. Then what is the disagreement?
[quote]randman wrote:
…It just sounds to me that that you’re attributing others phenomenal financial success to luck and happenstance…[/quote]
Well, it shouldn’t sound that way. I am saying that some fortunate events are required to become one of the super-mega-ultra rich. I say that it is essential, but not the key ingredient, as so many want to imply that I said.
[quote]randman wrote:
Cool, you agree everyone gets lucky. Then what is the disagreement?[/quote]
That is just it. I don’t think everyone has had the benefits that many billionaires have experienced to make them so rich. Likewise, I think that I have been very, very fortunate in my life. Had I wished to pursue extravagant riches, I have, thus far, been given the “blessings” such that it would be plausible to do so. Chances are, most of the members here at T-Nation have led rather fortunate lives when compared to the average dweller here on Earth. Does everyone get lucky? I don’t really know. If they do, then to what extent, and at what times?
~Terumo