I will say another thing about this program: it looks very good for introducing beginners to the important compound movements, lifting intensely, and beginning to develop a good base of strength.
Nonetheless, I think the volume is too low for optimal gains, even for beginner muscles which are primed for growth and will respond to almost anything. And there’s no reason why somewhat greater volume couldn’t be utilized and all the benefits that this program does have retained.
[quote]homer1 wrote:
…But actually most lifters do not incorporate many compounds at all. Why? Because they’re hard, and they don’t give you a good pump like curls… I[/quote]
I’m hesitant to jump into this this discussion at all, but on what are you basing this statement?
Maybe if you define “lifter” as anyone who touches any piece of fitness equipment at least once a month then this would apply. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone I would ascribe the term “lifter” to who doesn’t use compounds to a significant degree and most use them extensively. Just not exclusively.
Also the so called “pump” is a debate I’ve never understood. If “the pump” is defined as blood flowing to muscles in response to stress and damage then I wouldn’t personally know of way to avoid that with ANY ambitiously executed movement if I wanted to including compounds.
My issue isn’t the information presented, it is the presenter itself. When I was new here, even being a professional in the field, I took some time to read and learn from those wiser than myself, had a few discussions, made a few friends and helped a few people out along the way. My first posting was not my ultimate training manifesto. This manifesto isn’t even his, its as if he was assigned a book report on a book that he read, and posted the book report here on T-Nation. Then he defends the book report with unfathomable zeal.
Will it work? Yes. However in a true beginner anything will work. Nobody is debating that there is sound science behing the ideas. However, if a first posting is intended to be the new training bible, at least make it an original training bible.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
I don’t what there really is to say. It looks like a solid starting program for beginners. Is it the best out there? Pretty hard to say. There are a lot of great programs around. And as long as a beginner is lifting intensely and ultizing a lot of compound work, they’re doing the right thing and will make significant progress.
The details and the exact form the program will take probably matter less at this time than any other in training. Could a split program work well for a beginner? Certainly it could, though I favor full-body myself.
Personally, I put my first 15 lbs on following a HIT program in quite short order. Then I moved to a split program for awhile, and I would say that I was still a beginner when I did so, and put on my next 12 or so.[/quote]
Well, again, anything will work for a beginner. But it’s a matter of building a base of strength. Yeah, westside certainly wouldn’t be counterproductive for a beginner. But the trainer could probably increase more frequently than once a week, especially on exercises like the squat. Keep in mind also, I didn’t write this program. It was written by one of the greatest strength coaches alive, as well as Bill Starr, Pendlay, and others. It’s not the latest, greatest fad.
I’m not sure if it was you who said it was low volume, but it’s really not at all. If you actually go out and do the program with 100% intensity and attempt to increase every workout, it is actually extremely difficult.
[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:
My issue isn’t the information presented, it is the presenter itself. When I was new here, even being a professional in the field, I took some time to read and learn from those wiser than myself, had a few discussions, made a few friends and helped a few people out along the way. My first posting was not my ultimate training manifesto. This manifesto isn’t even his, its as if he was assigned a book report on a book that he read, and posted the book report here on T-Nation. Then he defends the book report with unfathomable zeal.
Will it work? Yes. However in a true beginner anything will work. Nobody is debating that there is sound science behing the ideas. However, if a first posting is intended to be the new training bible, at least make it an original training bible.
[/quote]
Well I’m not sure what you mean by original training bible. But that wasn’t a “book report” and I didn’t copy and paste it. I don’t have unfathomable zeal for the program. I just believe it is the best program for a raw beginner. To at least use until it doesn’t work any more.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
homer1 wrote:
…But actually most lifters do not incorporate many compounds at all. Why? Because they’re hard, and they don’t give you a good pump like curls… I
I’m hesitant to jump into this this discussion at all, but on what are you basing this statement?
Maybe if you define “lifter” as anyone who touches any piece of fitness equipment at least once a month then this would apply. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone I would ascribe the term “lifter” to who doesn’t use compounds to a significant degree and most use them extensively. Just not exclusively.
Also the so called “pump” is a debate I’ve never understood. If “the pump” is defined as blood flowing to muscles in response to stress and damage then I wouldn’t personally know of way to avoid that with ANY ambitiously executed movement if I wanted to including compounds.[/quote]
It’s not a matter of avoiding the pump. But compare a set of 10 curls compared to a set of 5 squats. Which one makes you feel bigged after a workout? Which one just makes you tired?
[quote]homer1 wrote:
It’s not a matter of avoiding the pump. But compare a set of 10 curls compared to a set of 5 squats. Which one makes you feel bigged after a workout? Which one just makes you tired?[/quote]
If you compare 10 curls to 5 deadlifts, I think deadlifts win hands down. I feel like I could throw a samll car at someone after deadlifts, and I am a weak bitch.
[quote]homer1 wrote:
It’s not a matter of avoiding the pump. But compare a set of 10 curls compared to a set of 5 squats. Which one makes you feel bigged after a workout? Which one just makes you tired?[/quote]
You missed my point. I’m not talking avoiding or pursuing a “pump”. To me it’s a meaningless discussion because every working set I’ve ever done of any exercise where growth was the goal resulted in whatever the target muscle group was being “pumped”.
I don’t know how you work squats friend, but when I’m done my legs are swollen more than quite noticeably. I can feel my heartbeat in them when I stand still for about 20 minutes.
I was more focusing on the idea that most lifters don’t work compounds. You don’t seem like an imbecile, but that is a like far out claim for which I would be interested to hear the basis.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
homer1 wrote:
It’s not a matter of avoiding the pump. But compare a set of 10 curls compared to a set of 5 squats. Which one makes you feel bigged after a workout? Which one just makes you tired?
You missed my point. I’m not talking avoiding or pursuing a “pump”. To me it’s a meaningless discussion because every working set I’ve ever done of any exercise where growth was the goal resulted in whatever the target muscle group was being “pumped”.
I don’t know how you work squats friend, but when I’m done my legs are swollen more than quite noticeably. I can feel my heartbeat in them when I stand still for about 20 minutes.
I was more focusing on the idea that most lifters don’t work compounds. You don’t seem like an imbecile, but that is a like far out claim for which I would be interested to hear the basis.[/quote]
Yeah, the pump may occur for you in every workset. But, again, think of yourself as a complete beginner. All you know is what Jay Cutler’s ghostwriter has said in Muscle & Fitness. Which one are you going to pick: a set of squats or a set of leg extensions?
Yeah, I’m not saying everyone out there does no compounds. But their importance is underestimated in beginners, as well as linear progression on them.