Looking to Pack On Muscle?

[Avoids_Roids]

I have been lifting for almost 50 years. I have tried just about every program out there at one time or another. Splits work. TBT works. HIT works. Everything works. What works best is an idividual matter that has many variables including, genes, age, training age, T levels, type of muscle make up, diet, etc., etc, ad nauseum.

When I was first starting, everybody did 3 full body workouts of usually 3 sets of 10 reps per body part. That worked great for me through High School. Then along came body splits from working each muscle once per week once per month. What worked best for me when I was younger was an upper/lower split hitting each muscle twice per week. HIT never did me much good but I have seen it eveolve into where now some HITers do each body part 3 times per week. From my 30’s into my late 50’s, I continued to work out, mostly with working each bodypart once per week. I stagnated. I started HST about 4 years ago and started to grow again.

Now, at 61, I have stagnated again and am trying a modified HST/TBT/Split/HIT type program doing 13 exercises, one set of each exercise using giant sets within bodyparts. Working out 2 times per week for 15 reps (for 1 Week). 3 times per week for 10 reps (for 2 Weeks) and 4 times per week for 5 reps (for 3 Weeks). What changes is the total sets per week, not per day. My rationale (theory) is that frequency and total volume (work) per week are more imortant than the actual number of sets or reps per workout. This is a 6 week trial program and am just doing the 15’s this week so I have no results to report. The exercises (grouped into giant sets) are:

Incline DB Bench Press
Dips
Flat Bench Flyes

DB Military Press
DB Shrugs
Close Grip Bench Press

Pull Ups
Chin Ups
Seated Rows
Barbell Curls

Squats
Deadlifts
Leg Extensions (Always high reps)

No rest within body part groupings. 3 Minutes rest between body parts. Where I have trouble making the rep count (such as in dips immediately after benches during the 15’s), I cluster the reps to get to 15 with as little “down” time as possible. Then immediately go into the flyes. Very intense as I am working close to my rep maxes most of the time. This will be followed by a two week vacation around the Christmas holidays.

Sometimes I split it into an AM/PM workout and sometimes into a 2 day split. It all depends on my schedule.

After 6 weeks, I will evaluate the program. I may need to change it dramatically. Who knows. Two things are certain though…Everything works for a while and change is good and necessary. There is no one ideal program that fits everybody.

[t3h_Squirr3l]

I would agree with Homer that Rippetoe’s program works for raw newbies really well. I mean, you’re squatting three times a week. Even a seasoned pro would have to say for the beginner thats excellent. I personally like squatting three times a week. It works for me. But bodypart splits might work for someone else.

Rippetoe is a strength and conditioning coach, btw. I believe he works at Witchita Falls Barbell (or something like that). He wrote ‘Starting Strength’. His program is somewhat similar to Starr’s 5x5.

[jsbrook]

What is with all the babble about split routines necessarily focusing on isolation exercises> They can and do incorporate all the compounds that full-body routines do. Leg day can be squats and deadlifts as well as isolation work. One could have a back and biceps day with rows, and weighted chins and pull-ups as well as isolation work.

A day of ‘chest’ is really often bench and dips and not just flys. Direct tricep work may or may not be incorporated on this day. I’ve never known anyone who does a split routine that simply does flys. Shoulders can be a day of there own, and there’s no reason at all why overhead pressing would not be a key component and not simply side and front lateral raises.

[jsbrook]

In fairness to the original poster, he is posting in the beginners section. So, perhaps that might SOMEWHAT excuse the somewhat condescending demeaning tone. Maybe not. But at least it might excuse rehashing basic and obvious physiology and aspects of weight-lifting.

[Petedacook]

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
What is with all the babble about split routines necessarily focusing on isolation exercises> They can and do incorporate all the compounds that full-body routines do. Leg day can be squats and deadlifts as well as isolation work. One could have a back and biceps day with rows, and weighted chins and pull-ups as well as isolation work.

A day of ‘chest’ is really often bench and dips and not just flys. Direct tricep work may or may not be incorporated on this day. I’ve never known anyone who does a split routine that simply does flys. Shoulders can be a day of there own, and there’s no reason at all why overhead pressing would not be a key component and not simply side and front lateral raises. [/quote]

Thanks for addressing this. I incorporate the major compound exercise sin my “split” routine, and I think everyone does. Flat bench press, military press, rows, squats, and deads are compound exercises that are incorporated in nearly everyone’s “split” routine, as well as total body routines.

[homer1]

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
In fairness to the original poster, he is posting in the beginners section. So, perhaps that might SOMEWHAT excuse the somewhat condescending demeaning tone. Maybe not. But at least it might excuse rehashing basic and obvious physiology and aspects of weight-lifting. [/quote]

No, it’s in the beginner section because it’s directed at beginners.

Regarding that different things work for different people, I don’t disagree with that. But overall you have to realize that certain things apply to everyone. Like how the muscle grows, etc. I am not saying splits are ineffective or that you can’t focus on compounds with splits very successfully.

But overall, the way that one will grow is to get stronger. I am not going to get much bigger if I stay at the same weight in everything. That rule applies to everyone. Now, we all know that beginners are able to increase more frequently than advanced lifters. Therefore he would want to take full advantage of that. If I do a program where I’m hitting each muscle 1x a week, I would only be able to increase on those particular exercises 1x per week. A beginner could increase much, much more frequently than that. Especially with the exercises like squat, deadlift, bench press, and overhead press.

The goal of the Starting Strength program written by Mark Rippetoe, arguably the greatest weightlifting coach in the world, is to build an absolute core of strength in all areas. This will be accomplished with exercises that use more muscle groups (compound-joint exercises).

Programs like Westside are upper/lower splits, and are excellent programs. No question. Trainers on these program are generally able to increase on their lifts 1x a week, as well as much room for isolation exercises to bring up weak points. But someone walking on to a program like this should have a solid foundation of strength. Yeah, if I squat 100lb and start Westside, it won’t be the end of the world. But I could benefit much more from squatting 3x a week so I can get stronger faster.

[homer1]

[quote]Petedacook wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
What is with all the babble about split routines necessarily focusing on isolation exercises> They can and do incorporate all the compounds that full-body routines do. Leg day can be squats and deadlifts as well as isolation work. One could have a back and biceps day with rows, and weighted chins and pull-ups as well as isolation work.

A day of ‘chest’ is really often bench and dips and not just flys. Direct tricep work may or may not be incorporated on this day. I’ve never known anyone who does a split routine that simply does flys. Shoulders can be a day of there own, and there’s no reason at all why overhead pressing would not be a key component and not simply side and front lateral raises.

Thanks for addressing this. I incorporate the major compound exercise sin my “split” routine, and I think everyone does. Flat bench press, military press, rows, squats, and deads are compound exercises that are incorporated in nearly everyone’s “split” routine, as well as total body routines.
[/quote]

Again, I’m not anti-split at all. I assume that you are not a beginner lifter as well.

But actually most lifters do not incorporate many compounds at all. Why? Because they’re hard, and they don’t give you a good pump like curls. I know, I used to be like that. I had no idea about linear progression, I never even thought about it.

[homer1]

[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:

1. Welcome to T-Nation.

2. Who is Mark Rippetoe? I have never heard of him.

3. Are you sure that you aren’t Mark Rippetoe here trying to sell your books? If so, we have plenty of authors here, and plenty of books to buy.

Not meant to be offensive, but your first post with us is about some guy and how his books and his methodology are better than what we all already know. You didn’t really say hello, or get to know anyone first, you immeadiately stepped up on your soapbox in a foreign land, and started preaching. It may be Sunday, but I’m not in church.

You, or anyone for that matter, can not call out the effectivity of the split, or say you know first hand that steroids make the split workout useless. It just can not be done. Unfortunately for you, people here are too intelligent, well read, and well trained to fall for it.

Also, why do you feel the need to explain everything to us, that we already know, as if you are writing a high school english essay? If you wish to write essays so badly, I’m sure there is a local college at which you could take a course.

I started on a traditional split routine, made great progress at it, and have been in the game for a long time now. The key isn’t what one does to start, the key is that they start. If everyone started with the same thing, nowhere near as many would stick around.

Please, in regards to next time, consider the character and reputation of the author, as well as the readers before preaching.

In conclusion, Welcome to T-Nation Mark. I will not now, nor ever, be purchasing one of your books. However I truly reccomend you purchase one written by a T-Nation author. It would be good for you. [/quote]

hahahahahaha, I wish I was Mark Rippetoe. I can assure you I am not him and anyone who knows anything about weight training knows he is a seasoned professional who wrote a book in the 70’s called “the strongest shall survive”. He’s about to come out with another book but I forgot the name. You can pm some respected member on here, and he will tell you exactly who Rippetoe is.

However, my name is Mark though :). Debate the information I present, not who I am. And like I said, splits can be very useful.

[jsbrook]

Homer, you seem to be under the misimpression that you can’t increase strength [and accordingly growth] quite steadily and quickly on a split routine. Personally, I prefer full-body training myself. But splits can and do work at all developmental levels and can yield strength and growth increases just as readily or moreso than full-body workouts.

[TrainerinDC]

[quote]homer1 wrote:
hahahahahaha, I wish I was Mark Rippetoe. I can assure you I am not him and anyone who knows anything about weight training [/quote] Anyone who knows anything? Well I know plenty and I have never heard of the man nor read his work? Does this take away from my credentials and credibilty? No it most certainly does not. [quote]knows he is a seasoned professional who wrote a book in the 70’s called “the strongest shall survive”. He’s about to come out with another book but I forgot the name. You can pm some respected member on here, and he will tell you exactly who Rippetoe is.[/quote]

Again, brand new here speaking in a condescending tone, and telling me to PM respected members? Can you even suggest a proper respected member. I asked around, to my colleagues and other serious trainees and none had heard of Mark Rippetoe.

However, my name is Mark though :). Debate the information I present, not who I am. And like I said, splits can be very useful.

Well then Mark, there are a few fatal flaws with your argument. Your idea will only work for some people, many have to work up to big compounds. Some are scared of them, others feel they aren’t strong enough, some others yet feel as if they need some coaching or guidance before attempting them. Others may have lagging injuries. A trainee with back, neck, shoulder, knee or hip problems could not jump into your program. Furthermore, the CNS shock involved with this program would frighten most newbies away from ever lifting again. However you push this off, in your first posting here, as if it were the ultimate program.

You also seem to quote or refer to Mark Rippetoe as if he is the end all and be all of training knowledge. This is also a problem because I can assure you, there is no single know it all. The best physiques and programs are designed with lots of knowledge from various sources, and most importantly, first hand knowledge about the trainee themself. The person who can train me the best, is me. No trainer, coach or author will ever know me and my body and how I react to stimuli better than I do.

You did get two things correct however. The first is squats are important, the second is that the body needs to be in a caloric surplus to grow. These two things have to be reiterated constantly. I do thank you for reiterating them for the rest of us.

[t3h_Squirr3l]

Bill Starr wrote the strongest shall survive. Rippetoe wrote starting strength.

[homer1]

[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:
homer1 wrote:
hahahahahaha, I wish I was Mark Rippetoe. I can assure you I am not him and anyone who knows anything about weight training Anyone who knows anything? Well I know plenty and I have never heard of the man nor read his work? Does this take away from my credentials and credibilty? No it most certainly does not. knows he is a seasoned professional who wrote a book in the 70’s called “the strongest shall survive”. He’s about to come out with another book but I forgot the name. You can pm some respected member on here, and he will tell you exactly who Rippetoe is.

Again, brand new here speaking in a condescending tone, and telling me to PM respected members? Can you even suggest a proper respected member. I asked around, to my colleagues and other serious trainees and none had heard of Mark Rippetoe.

However, my name is Mark though :). Debate the information I present, not who I am. And like I said, splits can be very useful.

Well then Mark, there are a few fatal flaws with your argument. Your idea will only work for some people, many have to work up to big compounds. Some are scared of them, others feel they aren’t strong enough, some others yet feel as if they need some coaching or guidance before attempting them. Others may have lagging injuries. A trainee with back, neck, shoulder, knee or hip problems could not jump into your program. Furthermore, the CNS shock involved with this program would frighten most newbies away from ever lifting again. However you push this off, in your first posting here, as if it were the ultimate program.

You also seem to quote or refer to Mark Rippetoe as if he is the end all and be all of training knowledge. This is also a problem because I can assure you, there is no single know it all. The best physiques and programs are designed with lots of knowledge from various sources, and most importantly, first hand knowledge about the trainee themself. The person who can train me the best, is me. No trainer, coach or author will ever know me and my body and how I react to stimuli better than I do.

You did get two things correct however. The first is squats are important, the second is that the body needs to be in a caloric surplus to grow. These two things have to be reiterated constantly. I do thank you for reiterating them for the rest of us.
[/quote]

No condescending tone here. It’s not my program. And yeah, of course if someone was rehabing or had other things going on Starting Strength would not be suitable at first. However, I doubt that none of your fellow trainers have heard of Mark Rippetoe (unless your a personal trainer at a gym). Rippetoe is to weightlifting what Socrates is to philosophy. He is an all-star. Right up there with Bill Starr, Pendlay, DeFranco, etc.

Starting Strength is not the newest fad. It’s the basics of the basics. Anyone who is able to get that much stronger on their big lifts will get bigger, I don’t care who they are (again, assuming they eat enough). However genetics may play the role of how fast they may gain for how long, etc. But it won’t change the basic foundations of weight training (to get stronger). In any program, whether it be a Chad Waterbury program, westside program, or joe shmoe program, will incorporate linear progression in some way, shape, or form in the program for it to be effective.

Keep in mind, the increase of weight itself is not the only way to progress. You can increase reps, lower time between sets, increase sets, lower time of recovery, etc. But you have to overload the body in some way. Starting Strength, I believe, is the best way for a raw beginner to take full advantage of the newbie gains (and like you said, there are acceptions when there are health concerns)

[homer1]

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Homer, you seem to be under the misimpression that you can’t increase strength [and accordingly growth] quite steadily and quickly on a split routine. Personally, I prefer full-body training myself. But splits can and do work at all developmental levels and can yield strength and growth increases just as readily or moreso than full-body workouts. [/quote]

That’s not my impression at all.

[quote]t3h_Squirr3l wrote:
Bill Starr wrote the strongest shall survive. Rippetoe wrote starting strength.[/quote]

Yeah, my bad. Rippetoe is also about to come out with another book entitled “program design and progression” or something like that, I can’t remember.

[elliotnewman1]

[quote]homer1 wrote:
Are you a beginner looking to pack on some extra muscle mass? Well let me explain to you how exactly this can be achieved.

First of all, I would like you to empty your mind of everything you have ever read in the muscle magazines. Completely. In case you are unaware, 98% of what you will read in any magazine like that is complete BS. Now, why would a magazine want to publish BS, well, there are two reasons: 1. these programs are written by professional bodybuilders.

People seem to think that if there is a picture of a big guy next to a an article, it must be right. Well it?s not. Most of the time, they will publish bodypart splits, one of the most least effective ways to train, especially for a beginner. About 30 years ago, it would be the generally thing for bodybuilders to do fullbody routines 3x a week. Why? Because it worked.

Then steroids got into the picture. And bodybuilders found that while taking steroids, splitting each body part up throughout the week is more effective. Then they published their routines to the general public, who does not take steroids. See what I?m getting at here? 2. The second reason is, how do you feel when you complete 12 sets of chest exercises in one day? Great! You?ve got a huge pump, and the next day, you feel sore. It must be working!

Well unfortunately, neither the pump nor soreness have anything to do with a program?s effectiveness. But you didn?t know that. You felt great doing your Muscle & Fitness program. This is gold for them. Because it builds a subconscious bond with them. And you know what that means? You?re going to believe the crap they publish about their supplements.

See, you have been fooled (well, hopefully you knew that)

Now, how does a muscle grow exactly? You?re probably thinking ?the muscle breaks down, then builds back up?. Sadly, that is actually only a very small part of the equation. Think of the body as one system, rather than a bunch of individual muscles. Compare the two following situations:

1. You increase 100lb on the squat in 6 months

2. You dick around on the calf raise and seated calf raise machines for 6 months. You generally do high reps to get a big pump.

Which one do you think my calves would have gotten bigger with? I?m going to go with situation 1. Why? Because the body adds muscle to the system as a result of it getting stronger. It?s kind of like out of fear. All your body is worried about is survival. The last thing it wants to do is add muscle, because extra muscle means extra calories required for survival. But, if I?m getting a lot stronger, and I?m eating a caloric surplus, the body will have no choice but to add muscle in order to keep up with this.

So now that this has been established, what program am I getting at? Well, since you?re a beginner, we?ll do the Starting Strength program written by Mark Rippetoe. It?s your standard 3x a week fullbody routine. You will squat every workout. Why? Because squatting is the absolute mass builder. You cannot beat this exercise. Here is a basic outline of the program itself:

You will switch out workout A and workout B every workout, on three consecutive days during the week. For example, Monday - A, Wednesday - B, Friday - A, next Monday - B, and so on.

Workout A:

Squat - 3x5
Bench Press - 3x5
Deadlift - 1x5

Workout B:

Squat - 3x5
Power Clean - 3x5 (may be substituted with rows if you wish)
Overhead Press - 3x5

Yes, it is very simple. But it?s as basic as basic gets. You will add weight to the bar every workout. And you will add a great deal of overall mass with it. Again, if you add 50lb to your bench press, there is no direct tricep exercise that can draw a spoon to the mass your triceps will have put on.

But one thing that I know you?ve heard a million times, but I?ll say it again. You have to have a caloric excess. You won?t grow if your body doesn?t have calories left over after burning them.

As for power cleans, I know a lot of you are not very experienced, and could very well injure yourself doing power cleans. They are a very difficult exercise to master. You can sub these with barbell rows (Yates, Pendlay, whatever).

The program should last anywhere from 3-4 months. Once you stop being able to increase for at least 2 weeks, change programs. After a few weeks on the program, you may add in some isolation work (calf raises, tricep extensions, bicep curls, shrugs, etc), depending on what you feel your weaknesses are. Ab work is also vital. Don?t overthink this. Just do a few sets of leg raises or sit-ups 2-3x a week. Find which way you prefer.

This is my first post, so I?m not 100% certain how this works. But you can post any questions in this thread regarding this program orany questions in general and I will do my best to answer, as well as I?m sure there are many other knowledgeable members that would be happy to answer your questions or comments.

Best of luck with your training!
[/quote]

The way your writing you sound like you think your one of the best trainers in the world. I doubt this very much.

I’ve trained using various split programs over the past year and put on around ten to twelve pounds of muscle. Please tell me im training wrong! Oh no, actually on second thoughts dont, cos im pretty satisfied with my split routines. I see no problem with split routines as long as your still hitting the major compound lifts hard.

[homer1]

[quote]elliotnewman1 wrote:
homer1 wrote:
Are you a beginner looking to pack on some extra muscle mass? Well let me explain to you how exactly this can be achieved.

First of all, I would like you to empty your mind of everything you have ever read in the muscle magazines. Completely. In case you are unaware, 98% of what you will read in any magazine like that is complete BS. Now, why would a magazine want to publish BS, well, there are two reasons: 1. these programs are written by professional bodybuilders.

People seem to think that if there is a picture of a big guy next to a an article, it must be right. Well it?s not. Most of the time, they will publish bodypart splits, one of the most least effective ways to train, especially for a beginner. About 30 years ago, it would be the generally thing for bodybuilders to do fullbody routines 3x a week. Why? Because it worked.

Then steroids got into the picture. And bodybuilders found that while taking steroids, splitting each body part up throughout the week is more effective. Then they published their routines to the general public, who does not take steroids. See what I?m getting at here? 2. The second reason is, how do you feel when you complete 12 sets of chest exercises in one day? Great! You?ve got a huge pump, and the next day, you feel sore. It must be working!

Well unfortunately, neither the pump nor soreness have anything to do with a program?s effectiveness. But you didn?t know that. You felt great doing your Muscle & Fitness program. This is gold for them. Because it builds a subconscious bond with them. And you know what that means? You?re going to believe the crap they publish about their supplements.

See, you have been fooled (well, hopefully you knew that)

Now, how does a muscle grow exactly? You?re probably thinking ?the muscle breaks down, then builds back up?. Sadly, that is actually only a very small part of the equation. Think of the body as one system, rather than a bunch of individual muscles. Compare the two following situations:

1. You increase 100lb on the squat in 6 months

2. You dick around on the calf raise and seated calf raise machines for 6 months. You generally do high reps to get a big pump.

Which one do you think my calves would have gotten bigger with? I?m going to go with situation 1. Why? Because the body adds muscle to the system as a result of it getting stronger. It?s kind of like out of fear. All your body is worried about is survival. The last thing it wants to do is add muscle, because extra muscle means extra calories required for survival. But, if I?m getting a lot stronger, and I?m eating a caloric surplus, the body will have no choice but to add muscle in order to keep up with this.

So now that this has been established, what program am I getting at? Well, since you?re a beginner, we?ll do the Starting Strength program written by Mark Rippetoe. It?s your standard 3x a week fullbody routine. You will squat every workout. Why? Because squatting is the absolute mass builder. You cannot beat this exercise. Here is a basic outline of the program itself:

You will switch out workout A and workout B every workout, on three consecutive days during the week. For example, Monday - A, Wednesday - B, Friday - A, next Monday - B, and so on.

Workout A:

Squat - 3x5
Bench Press - 3x5
Deadlift - 1x5

Workout B:

Squat - 3x5
Power Clean - 3x5 (may be substituted with rows if you wish)
Overhead Press - 3x5

Yes, it is very simple. But it?s as basic as basic gets. You will add weight to the bar every workout. And you will add a great deal of overall mass with it. Again, if you add 50lb to your bench press, there is no direct tricep exercise that can draw a spoon to the mass your triceps will have put on.

But one thing that I know you?ve heard a million times, but I?ll say it again. You have to have a caloric excess. You won?t grow if your body doesn?t have calories left over after burning them.

As for power cleans, I know a lot of you are not very experienced, and could very well injure yourself doing power cleans. They are a very difficult exercise to master. You can sub these with barbell rows (Yates, Pendlay, whatever).

The program should last anywhere from 3-4 months. Once you stop being able to increase for at least 2 weeks, change programs. After a few weeks on the program, you may add in some isolation work (calf raises, tricep extensions, bicep curls, shrugs, etc), depending on what you feel your weaknesses are. Ab work is also vital. Don?t overthink this. Just do a few sets of leg raises or sit-ups 2-3x a week. Find which way you prefer.

This is my first post, so I?m not 100% certain how this works. But you can post any questions in this thread regarding this program orany questions in general and I will do my best to answer, as well as I?m sure there are many other knowledgeable members that would be happy to answer your questions or comments.

Best of luck with your training!

The way your writing you sound like you think your one of the best trainers in the world. I doubt this very much.

I’ve trained using various split programs over the past year and put on around ten to twelve pounds of muscle. Please tell me im training wrong! Oh no, actually on second thoughts dont, cos im pretty satisfied with my split routines. I see no problem with split routines as long as your still hitting the major compound lifts hard.

[/quote]

Ok comments like this are starting to irritate me. You clearly haven’t read the thread because I said many, many times that I am not anti-split at all.

Read before you speak for now on, please. Thanks.

[oztrav]

I understand what you’re saying. But keep in mind, even with isolation exercises, you would have to progress to grow. The Starting Strength program is not just going to give you big front delts and lagging medial delts. Think about the overhead press. If I increase it by 50lb, do you think there is even a chance my medial delts wouldn’t have exploded? How else would I stabilize all the weight? Read this article by madcow2:

Please add 50lb on your overhead press and stop sarting threads about contentious crap powerclean for the raw beginner is dangerous I’m sick of this starting strength crap its a watered down version of 5x5 do 5x5 and shut up or do a body part split then tell us how you go if it is sucess or a constant set up to fail im sick of rippetoe

[homer1]

[quote]oztrav wrote:

I understand what you’re saying. But keep in mind, even with isolation exercises, you would have to progress to grow. The Starting Strength program is not just going to give you big front delts and lagging medial delts. Think about the overhead press. If I increase it by 50lb, do you think there is even a chance my medial delts wouldn’t have exploded? How else would I stabilize all the weight? Read this article by madcow2:

Please add 50lb on your overhead press and stop sarting threads about contentious crap powerclean for the raw beginner is dangerous I’m sick of this starting strength crap its a watered down version of 5x5 do 5x5 and shut up or do a body part split then tell us how you go if it is sucess or a constant set up to fail im sick of rippetoe[/quote]

1. I’ve started one thread.

2. I never said power cleans were dangerous for all beginners.

3. You are not looking to have a discussion about muscle growth or program design, which leads me to 4…

4. Don’t post in here any more.

I’m not looking to have a debate based on who can post the most crap and who can out-flame who.

[TrainerinDC]

[quote]homer1 wrote:

1. I’ve started one thread.

2. I never said power cleans were dangerous for all beginners.

3. You are not looking to have a discussion about muscle growth or program design, which leads me to 4…

4. Don’t post in here any more.

I’m not looking to have a debate based on who can post the most crap and who can out-flame who.
[/quote]

Well thanks a lot Homer, or Mark. I’m very glad to see you’ve been here under a week and are already telling us what to do and so sure that you know more than all of us. We really appreciate your vast knowledge. Maybe you should open your own website.

Homersworkout.com

Would keep you from bugging me on the forums that I read.

[homer1]

[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:
homer1 wrote:

1. I’ve started one thread.

2. I never said power cleans were dangerous for all beginners.

3. You are not looking to have a discussion about muscle growth or program design, which leads me to 4…

4. Don’t post in here any more.

I’m not looking to have a debate based on who can post the most crap and who can out-flame who.

Well thanks a lot Homer, or Mark. I’m very glad to see you’ve been here under a week and are already telling us what to do and so sure that you know more than all of us. We really appreciate your vast knowledge. Maybe you should open your own website.

Homersworkout.com

Would keep you from bugging me on the forums that I read. [/quote]

No, I’m more than willing to talk about something regarding program design, etc. That’s why I started the thread. But the poster I quoted was an idiot to come in here and tell me “quit talking about rippetoe”, I’d like to see what workout program for beginners he has made up. “quit saying that power cleans are not good”, I actually said nothing like that. And a bunch of other BS.

Either debate the information I present or agree with it. Or don’t post. It’s that simple.

[jsbrook]

I don’t what there really is to say. It looks like a solid starting program for beginners. Is it the best out there? Pretty hard to say. There are a lot of great programs around. And as long as a beginner is lifting intensely and ultizing a lot of compound work, they’re doing the right thing and will make significant progress.

The details and the exact form the program will take probably matter less at this time than any other in training. Could a split program work well for a beginner? Certainly it could, though I favor full-body myself.

Personally, I put my first 15 lbs on following a HIT program in quite short order. Then I moved to a split program for awhile, and I would say that I was still a beginner when I did so, and put on my next 12 or so.