[quote]bigflamer wrote:
What’s ridiculas about the whole “Bush is a chickenhawk” thing is that NO leader of ANY nation is going to battle. Period. Get over it.
Could you imagine Bush, Clinton, or any other leader for that matter leading the charge against the enemy? Use you fucking heads people.
[/quote]
Hello staw man. Of course people don’t expect presidents to lead the charge.
The Chickenhawk label typically refers to politicians and pundits that are pro-war, hawks, etc. but avoided military service when they had the chance. More specifically, avoiding the draft. Bush, Cheney, Rush “Anal Cyst” Limbaugh, etc.
But the bottom line is…remove the stick, it’s just a joke.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I pay taxes to have other people fight and die for me. Only thing I need to do, to have an opinion on when the military (that I help fund) should or should not be used.
If any prospective recruits can’t deal with that, don’t join the voluntary military.
Excellent post.
It’s good to get this out in the open. This is the kind of thinking we’re dealing with people.
“I pay taxes to have other people fight and die for me.”
[/quote]
Yep. I don’t fudge the issue. I pay taxes to support a national military. It’s tragic to lose any of our troops, but I don’t dress up the role of the voluntary soldier.
What is the purpose of the military? It’s not to collect the GI Bill. That’s what we call a perk. Their purpose is to kill, or be killed, on my behalf. So, I pay taxes so others who volunteer)have the training and equipment needed.
And because I fund this military, so I damn sure have an opinion. Perhaps you’d like to reimburse me? I’d be pleased to figure what the average american pays towards the defense budget. I’ll let you know where to send the check.
Now, I could use statements from soldiers who support the mission, but I don’t need to. I am capable and willing to speak as an individual. I know it conflicts with this tatic to stifle debate, but I could care less.
Any man who dodged the draft should be proud. Conscription is slavery. The state does not own me, or you. I don’t care what the personal intent of the person was, or their personal courage. Again, the government does not own us, and has no right to force a free man into military service.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Any man who dodged the draft should be proud. Conscription is slavery. The state does not own me, or you. I don’t care what the personal intent of the person was, or their personal courage. Again, the government does not own us, and has no right to force a free man into military service.[/quote]
Absolutely. I was in the first step of being drafted just as it was ending in 1973. We basically felt like cattle. Later on, it occured to me that defending a free country by enslaving a portion of its citizenry was just plain immoral.
After getting my Bachelor Degree, I then tried to enlist. Go figure…
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Any man who dodged the draft should be proud. Conscription is slavery. The state does not own me, or you. I don’t care what the personal intent of the person was, or their personal courage. Again, the government does not own us, and has no right to force a free man into military service.[/quote]
Technically by this line of thinking why does the governement have the right to pass laws against stealing or anything else. Why do people always think that since they pay taxes they are entitled to everything. Those soldiers that are funded by YOUR taxes also pay taxes.
[quote]snipeout wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Any man who dodged the draft should be proud. Conscription is slavery. The state does not own me, or you. I don’t care what the personal intent of the person was, or their personal courage. Again, the government does not own us, and has no right to force a free man into military service.
Technically by this line of thinking why does the governement have the right to pass laws against stealing or anything else. [/quote]
In the case of stealing, one individual has infringed upon the rights of another…
I’m not an anarchist. I conceed that government is needed as a third party to mediate, and defend. Government intervention is justified when the rights of one are infringed upon by another. The draft doesn’t qualify.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
After getting my Bachelor Degree, I then tried to enlist. Go figure… [/quote]
Yeah, “I would like to enlist, but I have wheeze asthma, cough, cough. And besides, my pussy hurts. Can I just go home now? Mom said she was making my favorite Hamburger Helper today.”
[quote]snipeout wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Any man who dodged the draft should be proud. Conscription is slavery. The state does not own me, or you. I don’t care what the personal intent of the person was, or their personal courage. Again, the government does not own us, and has no right to force a free man into military service.
Technically by this line of thinking why does the governement have the right to pass laws against stealing or anything else. Why do people always think that since they pay taxes they are entitled to everything. Those soldiers that are funded by YOUR taxes also pay taxes.[/quote]
I think everyone in a society should give more to society than just paying taxes. I think if you’re not enrolled in a higher education full time you should either serve a number of years in the military or the same number of years in some type of community service (Israel is a good example). That being said I have respect for anyone who dodged the Vietnam draft or failed to report for duty for war in Iraq.
Give more to society? Voluntarily? Or, through the threat of govermental force? Society does not own a single individual. Or, where it does, it’s called slavery.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Give more to society? Voluntarily? Or, through the threat of govermental force? Society does not own a single individual. Or, where it does, it’s called slavery. [/quote]
Through the threat of force. You’re right, society doesn’t ‘own’ anybody but everyone has responsibilities in a society to keep the society functioning.
Your father and mother don’t ‘own’ you but I bet you had to do chores growing up didn’t you? You did this because your parents felt that everyone in a family has certain responsibilities to that family. Your father may work and provide money, your mother works at home and takes care of the house and children, and you do small chores to help out your parents. The point is everyone has a responsibility to keep the family functioning.
The same should apply to a society. Nobody ‘owns’ you but you should have to serve that society in one way or another to make the society better. You of course would be paid, get benefits for college, etc., so this wouldn’t exactly be ‘slavery’. In return the society ‘serves’ you. Your parents who served in the military protected your grandparents who were too old to serve. You in turn provide protection to your parents and so on. Civil projects provide you with roads, parks, etc., for you and your family to enjoy.
[quote]jason1122 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Give more to society? Voluntarily? Or, through the threat of govermental force? Society does not own a single individual. Or, where it does, it’s called slavery.
Through the threat of force. You’re right, society doesn’t ‘own’ anybody but everyone has responsibilities in a society to keep the society functioning.
Your father and mother don’t ‘own’ you but I bet you had to do chores growing up didn’t you? You did this because your parents felt that everyone in a family has certain responsibilities to that family. Your father may work and provide money, your mother works at home and takes care of the house and children, and you do small chores to help out your parents. The point is everyone has a responsibility to keep the family functioning.
The same should apply to a society. Nobody ‘owns’ you but you should have to serve that society in one way or another to make the society better. You of course would be paid, get benefits for college, etc., so this wouldn’t exactly be ‘slavery’. In return the society ‘serves’ you. Your parents who served in the military protected your grandparents who were too old to serve. You in turn provide protection to your parents and so on. Civil projects provide you with roads, parks, etc., for you and your family to enjoy.
[/quote]
See, here’s ‘the rub’ in your argument Jason (and I AM NOT flaming you in any way): There will always be someone who says, “Well, what if I don’t WANT to serve voluntarily? What if I don’t CARE about the poor or homeless in any way?” Eventually, the society begins to apply brute force to obtain ‘cooperation’. It becomes too much of a temptation. Thus, we come to accept more and more coersion. That’s how it has worked with taxes and regulations over the past 100 years or so.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Give more to society? Voluntarily? Or, through the threat of govermental force? Society does not own a single individual. Or, where it does, it’s called slavery. [/quote]
A bit like you own a soldier because you pay taxes huh?
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
jason1122 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Give more to society? Voluntarily? Or, through the threat of govermental force? Society does not own a single individual. Or, where it does, it’s called slavery.
Through the threat of force. You’re right, society doesn’t ‘own’ anybody but everyone has responsibilities in a society to keep the society functioning.
Your father and mother don’t ‘own’ you but I bet you had to do chores growing up didn’t you? You did this because your parents felt that everyone in a family has certain responsibilities to that family. Your father may work and provide money, your mother works at home and takes care of the house and children, and you do small chores to help out your parents. The point is everyone has a responsibility to keep the family functioning.
The same should apply to a society. Nobody ‘owns’ you but you should have to serve that society in one way or another to make the society better. You of course would be paid, get benefits for college, etc., so this wouldn’t exactly be ‘slavery’. In return the society ‘serves’ you. Your parents who served in the military protected your grandparents who were too old to serve. You in turn provide protection to your parents and so on. Civil projects provide you with roads, parks, etc., for you and your family to enjoy.
See, here’s ‘the rub’ in your argument Jason (and I AM NOT flaming you in any way): There will always be someone who says, “Well, what if I don’t WANT to serve voluntarily? What if I don’t CARE about the poor or homeless in any way?” Eventually, the society begins to apply brute force to obtain ‘cooperation’. It becomes too much of a temptation. Thus, we come to accept more and more coersion. That’s how it has worked with taxes and regulations over the past 100 years or so.
[/quote]
A small price to pay for the privelige of living in a civilised environment. The only alternative would be to live the free life of the gatherer hunter.
They didn’t pay taxes and lived to the ripe old age of 35 or something.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Give more to society? Voluntarily? Or, through the threat of govermental force? Society does not own a single individual. Or, where it does, it’s called slavery.
A bit like you own a soldier because you pay taxes huh?
[/quote]
We have a voluntary military. Thanks for trying though.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
A small price to pay for the privelige of living in a civilised environment. The only alternative would be to live the free life of the gatherer hunter.
They didn’t pay taxes and lived to the ripe old age of 35 or something.[/quote]
And you jump right into some hunter-gatherer, primitive-anarchist scenario. Hunterer gatherers don’t set up a national defense. Nor, do they establish courts to mediate disputes. Do you wish to argue points being made? Or, will you construct our posistions for us?
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Could you imagine Bush, Clinton, or any other leader for that matter leading the charge against the enemy? Use you fucking heads people.
[/quote]
Leaders leading the charge. How fitting.
Even as late as during the thirty years war, the leaders (often kings or rich warlords) had to lead the charge themselves, else nobody would follow them into the fray.
Those were the times. Grim times, that’s for sure, but still, you get my point.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
A small price to pay for the privelige of living in a civilised environment. The only alternative would be to live the free life of the gatherer hunter.
They didn’t pay taxes and lived to the ripe old age of 35 or something.
And you jump right into some hunter-gatherer, primitive-anarchist scenario. Hunterer gatherers don’t set up a national defense. Nor, do they establish courts to mediate disputes. Do you wish to argue points being made? Or, will you construct our posistions for us?[/quote]
Exactly, that’s why they didn’t pay taxes.
Thanks for making my point.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
I pay taxes to have other people fight and die for me. Only thing I need to do, to have an opinion on when the military (that I help fund) should or should not be used.
If any prospective recruits can’t deal with that, don’t join the voluntary military.[/quote]
Explain to me why you think you should have an opinion as to how the military should or should not be used. Your payment of tax argument holds no water since the all VOLUNTARY military members pay taxes also and have no say in how they should be used. I’d be willing to bet your the guy who tells the cop, firefighter and ems worker that YOU pay his/her salary too.
[quote]snipeout wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I pay taxes to have other people fight and die for me. Only thing I need to do, to have an opinion on when the military (that I help fund) should or should not be used.
If any prospective recruits can’t deal with that, don’t join the voluntary military.
Explain to me why you think you should have an opinion as to how the military should or should not be used. Your payment of tax argument holds no water since the all VOLUNTARY military members pay taxes also and have no say in how they should be used. I’d be willing to bet your the guy who tells the cop, firefighter and ems worker that YOU pay his/her salary too.
[/quote]
NO but they do have an opinion which was his argument–not that he has a say. But by this logic poor people should have no opinion since they pay almost no taxes.
[quote]snipeout wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I pay taxes to have other people fight and die for me. Only thing I need to do, to have an opinion on when the military (that I help fund) should or should not be used.
If any prospective recruits can’t deal with that, don’t join the voluntary military.
Explain to me why you think you should have an opinion as to how the military should or should not be used. Your payment of tax argument holds no water since the all VOLUNTARY military members pay taxes also and have no say in how they should be used. I’d be willing to bet your the guy who tells the cop, firefighter and ems worker that YOU pay his/her salary too. [/quote]
Let’s forget taxes for a second. The fact that I’m a human being, gives me cause to develop opinions. Now, add the fact that I pay taxes to fund a military.
As for the cop/fire fighter quip. You missed my point. A cop had better show up and risk his life attempting to save my ass from an armed man. I pay taxes for that service. I don’t need to run out and join the police force, to demand police assistance.
Basically, it’s an idiotic expectation that those with an opinion on present military actions must support the draft. Or, have been in the military.
