[quote]Professor X wrote:
I don’t know many people who make endurance running their main priority who look anything like I would want to look. “Health” is also a subjective term and running alone does not indicate who is more fit.[/quote]
Other than on here, and with a few select non-retarded individuals, I don’t even argue/discuss this stuff anymore: soy is better than dairy. beef is bad. lifting weights is dangerous. jogging is healthy. eating before bed is bad. and on and on and on.
OK.
[i feel as if i should start a thread for most common industry (health/fitness/training) misconceptions. i’m sure it’s been done a million times, but it sounds like fun. i’m sure i could learn a few things myself.]
[quote]DPH wrote:
for instance…for me to reach my target goal of leaness I’m going to diet for 16 weeks…my diet is great but I still need to burn off another 300 calories a day…I could walk (cardio) everyday until I burn 300 calories, but I could also not do any cardio and just pop an appropriate amount of HOT-ROX…
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What would be the level of HOT-ROX that equates to 300 cals/day? I’ve always been suspect of fat burners, but I own a bottle of this and would love to know if anyone has any idea of what the calorie burning power is of these little magic tabs.
I don’t see any mention of any such numbers in the HOT-ROX sales pitch. Just a lot of inferences about its amazing abilities and nano-dispersed techology and research results to be discussed in future articles.
[quote]BFG wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I don’t know many people who make endurance running their main priority who look anything like I would want to look. “Health” is also a subjective term and running alone does not indicate who is more fit.
Other than on here, and with a few select non-retarded individuals, I don’t even argue/discuss this stuff anymore: soy is better than dairy. beef is bad. lifting weights is dangerous. jogging is healthy. eating before bed is bad. and on and on and on.
OK.
[i feel as if i should start a thread for most common industry (health/fitness/training) misconceptions. i’m sure it’s been done a million times, but it sounds like fun. i’m sure i could learn a few things myself.]
Bastard[/quote]
I have tried long duration intense cardio in the past when dieting and I lost a ton of muscle in the process. I have also tried doing no cardio and felt I lost weight too slowly. I maintained my muscle fullness, but it would have taken forever for me to reach my goal. Obviously, there is a balance between the two, but that is completely dependant on the individual as far as metabolism and genetics. I don’t see why anyone would think long duration cardio is a must for health if they are performing resistance training on a regular basis, aren’t dieting, and aren’t out of condition.
If you can’t finish a set of lifting weights or climb a flight of stairs without feeling like you will pass out, clearly you need to add some cardio back in. If you weigh all of 150lbs and the goal is to add muscle mass, jumping on the treadmill several times a week just sounds stupid.
When discussing the neccessity of cardiovascular exercise you have to consider what you are talking about.
Are we talking about for fat-loss?
In that sense I would say that it isn’t entirely necessary although low intensity cardio can help. Morning walks / gpp but nothing of the sort of swimming/biking/running resembling my sport.
If we are talkign about heart health yes it is necessary.
I quote myself:
I think people assume fat loss is from cardio by looking at endurance athletes like myself and seeing that they are lean. Yes we are lean but along with that we are skinny too. So yes, cardio will make you burn fat but not without the muscle adapting to be more effecient in that nature. The more effecient being more resemblant of a Type I low-hypertrophy potential muscle.
However, for the reasons I stated above, if your goal is general health your goal must have mid intensity cardiovascular exercise to stimulate the central adaptations.
If your goal is solely to get big and compete in bodybuilding then by all means avoid cardio like the plague. But it is absurd to think that the whole world is out to get big so saying that you can be lowfat without cardio is true but it makes people think you can be healthy without cardio and I’d argue that you cannot.
These are not just off the top of my head but these same lectures were provided by cardiologists and exercise physiologists galore.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
If you can’t finish a set of lifting weights or climb a flight of stairs without feeling like you will pass out, clearly you need to add some cardio back in. If you weigh all of 150lbs and the goal is to add muscle mass, jumping on the treadmill several times a week just sounds stupid.[/quote]
[quote]TriGWU wrote:
Has no one even read my previous post re: peripheral vs central adaptations in comparing resistance vs cardiovascular exercise.[/quote]
I read it. It’s interesting. Where did you learn this? A workout trisets say of heavy squats, weighted dips, and chins with short rest intervals after the combo of 3 feels like cardio. Moreso than many types of ‘cardio’ itself in fact. And I’m in fairly good shape. Nothing like I was as an endurance athlete, but I could still go out and run 2-3 6 minute miles back-to-back.
I think you can be healthy without cardio. I like cardio and think it has great health benefits. But if you follow a good diet and do intense weight training (in a cardiovascular manner) using compound movements utilizing antagonistic muscle pairings, supersets, giant sets, trisets, etc… I feel that your heart should be healthy.
I always thought HR increased during cardio because of the increasing rate of muscle contraction, not so much a demand for oxygen. Last I checked a healthy individual’s respitory rate was determined by the CO2 concentration of the blood and not oxygen (unless you suffer from COPD), while increasing HR has to do with the increased venous return (cardiac output must equal cardiac input). As BP within the venous system is approximately zero, it relies on muscle contraction to circulate blood back to the heart.
Cardiac output is determined by both HR and stroke volume; I would hypothesize that while both cardio and resistance exercise might raise HR, cardio requires a much larger blood flow and thus alters stroke volume to a large extent as well. It would make some degree of sense if an adaptation to operating at a larger stroke volume then triggers a decrease in resting HR, as total cardiac output would remain the same.
I think its just a continuum. On one end are the Kenyan distance runners. Clearly too much ‘cardio’ for people on here(and probably everywhere). On the other end there are the heavyweight power lifters and bodybuilders. Clearly the opposite of the distance runner. Most athletes are in between.
Just depends if you want what I call conditioning. Weights alone will not get you into sporting shape for many, many sports. At least weighted and non weighted GPP is needed. But I agree that many people can get lean without it.
For me as a martial artist, weights are not enough. But for many bodybuilders it is enough. Just find where your activity is on the continuum.
Fasted early morning cardio is still controversial in academic circles, and some people are concerned that it might be too catabolic and you may break down muscle along with the fat. However, my experience and research has shown that while there are risks, fasted early morning does work and the potential benefits outweight those risks when maximum fat loss is your goal.
But don’t take my word for it - examine the facts, test it while carefully monitoring body composition and lean body mass, and decide for yourself.
The argument in favor of fasted early morning cardio goes something like this:
After an overnight 8-12 hour fast, your body’s stores of glycogen are depleted and you burn more fat when glycogen is low.
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In Endurance circles, they state that after an overnight fast, liver glycogen is the only glycogen that is depleted and muscle glycogen is still readily and abundant for a 1hr to 1 1/2hr bout of heavy cardio.
What’s interesting is the different advice given to weightlifters doing cardio than endurance athletes training for long races in exercise choices and nutrition. Endurance athletes still think soy protein is great and have just recently discovered the benefits of whey protein, but many endurance athletes are battling with old myths just like bodybuilders are.
Just depends if you want what I call conditioning. Weights alone will not get you into sporting shape for many, many sports. At least weighted and non weighted GPP is needed. But I agree that many people can get lean without it.
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This is true. Training for max strength and size is one thing. And that’s what many on this site are seeking. But others have different goals. They may want to gain strength and size but still need to maintain conditioning for performance reasons.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
TriGWU wrote:
Has no one even read my previous post re: peripheral vs central adaptations in comparing resistance vs cardiovascular exercise.
I read it. It’s interesting. Where did you learn this? A workout trisets say of heavy squats, weighted dips, and chins with short rest intervals after the combo of 3 feels like cardio. Moreso than many types of ‘cardio’ itself in fact. And I’m in fairly good shape. Nothing like I was as an endurance athlete, but I could still go out and run 2-3 6 minute miles back-to-back.[/quote]
Part of a guest lecture by an cadiologist / researcher that I attended and through talks with other researchers in that field as well.
When I was entirely lifting (no endurance training what so ever) I had a VO2 max of 50.2 ml/kg/min which puts me in the superior range for endurance capability. This was simply because my cellular level had been so effecient. Based on numbers one would assume I was heart healthy
Now through endurance training my VO2 is 75 ml/kg/min.
[quote]JohnGalt wrote:
I always thought HR increased during cardio because of the increasing rate of muscle contraction, not so much a demand for oxygen. Last I checked a healthy individual’s respitory rate was determined by the CO2 concentration of the blood and not oxygen (unless you suffer from COPD), while increasing HR has to do with the increased venous return (cardiac output must equal cardiac input). As BP within the venous system is approximately zero, it relies on muscle contraction to circulate blood back to the heart.
[/quote]
You’re right. This is where you get into the grey area. Is 100 speed curls with a 5lb dumbell cardio or resistance exercise. Well technically its resistance but its technically cardio. Something like that would spawn a cardio-like muscle adaptation.
But your HR is also very high after a 1RM squat. Thats only one muscle contraction so where does the increase HR come in? Its not coming from a shat load of cardiac input. Its coming from your heart having to work against the increased peripheral resistance. In turn your HR blasts through the resistance and when you stop the contractyion you then have a lot of cardiac input. Now that cardiac input is up cardiac output must go up (as you have stated) which leads to your HR being elevated for an extended period of time.
ITs like when you are trying to push a door open and someone holds it and suddenly lets go. You go flying because it takes awhile to realize that the resistance isn’t there.
[quote]
Cardiac output is determined by both HR and stroke volume; I would hypothesize that while both cardio and resistance exercise might raise HR, cardio requires a much larger blood flow and thus alters stroke volume to a large extent as well. It would make some degree of sense if an adaptation to operating at a larger stroke volume then triggers a decrease in resting HR, as total cardiac output would remain the same. [/quote]
[quote]TriGWU wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
TriGWU wrote:
Has no one even read my previous post re: peripheral vs central adaptations in comparing resistance vs cardiovascular exercise.
I read it. It’s interesting. Where did you learn this? A workout trisets say of heavy squats, weighted dips, and chins with short rest intervals after the combo of 3 feels like cardio. Moreso than many types of ‘cardio’ itself in fact. And I’m in fairly good shape. Nothing like I was as an endurance athlete, but I could still go out and run 2-3 6 minute miles back-to-back.
Part of a guest lecture by an cadiologist / researcher that I attended and through talks with other researchers in that field as well.
When I was entirely lifting (no endurance training what so ever) I had a VO2 max of 50.2 ml/kg/min which puts me in the superior range for endurance capability. This was simply because my cellular level had been so effecient. Based on numbers one would assume I was heart healthy
Now through endurance training my VO2 is 75 ml/kg/min.[/quote]
Yes, I understand. VO2 max will not be as high only doing weight training. But V02 max is not what I meant refering to heart health. I was refering to clean arteries, low cholesterol, and healthy blood pressure. These are the issues that impact disease and longevity. Cardio/energy systems work is something that I will do to lesser or greater degrees. But I definitely think it’s possible to live to a healthy, fit old age without it.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
But I definitely think it’s possible to live to a healthy, fit old age without it.
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Thats where the point comes in. It just isn’t. All of your lower blood pressure adaptations are coming from forcing your heart to push against a maximal peripheral resistance and then scramble to recover ones the resistance is suddenly let off. Do me a favor, go up to a wall and push on it as hard as you can then let go. Would you want that to be the only exercise you got?
Don’t confuse my arguements with my goals. I am not arguing for all out cardio type training. I am just arguing for its place in the average person’s weekly training.
I would say something like a weekend game of pickup football or pickup basketball and morning walks with a weight vest are sufficient for central CV health.
I, on the other hand, am just a catabolic catastrophe.
[quote]TriGWU wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
But I definitely think it’s possible to live to a healthy, fit old age without it.
Thats where the point comes in. It just isn’t. All of your lower blood pressure adaptations are coming from forcing your heart to push against a maximal peripheral resistance and then scramble to recover ones the resistance is suddenly let off. Do me a favor, go up to a wall and push on it as hard as you can then let go. Would you want that to be the only exercise you got?
[/quote]
I dunno. Maybe your right. I don’t know enough about it. I’d be interested in some of the Prime Time guy’s takes.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
TriGWU wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
But I definitely think it’s possible to live to a healthy, fit old age without it.
Thats where the point comes in. It just isn’t. All of your lower blood pressure adaptations are coming from forcing your heart to push against a maximal peripheral resistance and then scramble to recover ones the resistance is suddenly let off. Do me a favor, go up to a wall and push on it as hard as you can then let go. Would you want that to be the only exercise you got?
I dunno. Maybe your right. I don’t know enough about it. I’d be interested in some of the Prime Time guy’s takes.
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Of course… there is the other side of the story where too much cardio is bad for the heart.
Stuff like Ironman has been considered detrimental to heart health.
Some doctors even consider the marathon too much (considering training etc)
Now i know they are some lean mutha’s but not all of them are ripped muscular dudes,i watched some sprinting titles the other night and the only ones i seen that impressed me were the SOME of the black sprinters.Out of 8 sprinters in a final i seen,3 of the black guys looked great while 5 of the other’s 3 white guys another 2 black guys were lanky guys,nothing to write home about
It just seems people think every single sprinter is some ripped up monster where as i think like every sport there are plenty of ripped muscular dudes within reason,im not talking about marathon runners and billiards but sports like rugby,rugby leauge,nfl,soccer,gymnastics,aurtalian rules football just to name a few.
